Drivetrain Intercoolers
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
My pleasure... I love this stuff... and Dr. O and I go way back and share respect for each other ... so there's no ill intentions... just good chatting...
ha ha good stuff... and an example of the good Doctors honesty... another reason I am willing to discuss things with him :D
Ahhhh I see what you are going on about now... LOL...I think you are confusing what I am talking about vs over all drop in the charge side of an IC to the outlet side... I speak only in final boost... at teh manifold... and therefore how it equates to HP! :D
this is where the #s on paper do not always add up... formulas are nice, and are great references... I think they sometimes confuse the issue... from what I have seen... and even want for my self... 90% of the time people wanna know... does it help or not.. and if so how much did I get for the $. THUS, I am concerned with one thing... :D
Our main objective, which is to cool the inlet air to the motor as much as possible. The colder the air into the motor, the denser the air charge. The higher the allowable boost level without detonation and retard AND MORE HORSEPOWER!!!
Pressure loss is of course related to airflow through the core, thus pressure drop increases with RPM, throttle position, and of course boost. I have a good gauge which allows both the inlet and exit pressure to be hooked up to the same gauge, and the pressure difference is simply displayed. This is helpful because the pressure drop is usually pretty small when compared to the pressures being measured, and increases accuracy of the data. Which is only relative at WOT cause other wise the air isn't really very hot... and the car will not pull timing at a steady state. and again... ultimately I wanna know what I have at the manifold... cuase well.. that's where it matters... along with the IAT
etc etc blah blah...
I guess my point after all this... is still that I have seen no significant pressure loss that hasn't been returned by efficency... even with a front mount on an SC only car...
but that sure was fun... thanks Doc!
I think this is a debate with no true conclusion, as it's so use case dependant.
Here's what I've learned with all the ICs I've played with:
Every one can be improved.
Most can benefit from some work on the diverter system, as leakage here is very very bad.
These aren't early mods to do, as there is more bang for the buck to be found elsewhere.
that and some of the posts above really encompass all there is to say....
Matt
Here's what I've learned with all the ICs I've played with:
Every one can be improved.
Most can benefit from some work on the diverter system, as leakage here is very very bad.
These aren't early mods to do, as there is more bang for the buck to be found elsewhere.
that and some of the posts above really encompass all there is to say....
Matt
this is where the #s on paper do not always add up... formulas are nice, and are great references... I think they sometimes confuse the issue... from what I have seen... and even want for my self... 90% of the time people wanna know... does it help or not.. and if so how much did I get for the $. THUS, I am concerned with one thing... :D
Our main objective, which is to cool the inlet air to the motor as much as possible. The colder the air into the motor, the denser the air charge. The higher the allowable boost level without detonation and retard AND MORE HORSEPOWER!!!
Pressure loss is of course related to airflow through the core, thus pressure drop increases with RPM, throttle position, and of course boost. I have a good gauge which allows both the inlet and exit pressure to be hooked up to the same gauge, and the pressure difference is simply displayed. This is helpful because the pressure drop is usually pretty small when compared to the pressures being measured, and increases accuracy of the data. Which is only relative at WOT cause other wise the air isn't really very hot... and the car will not pull timing at a steady state. and again... ultimately I wanna know what I have at the manifold... cuase well.. that's where it matters... along with the IAT
etc etc blah blah...
I guess my point after all this... is still that I have seen no significant pressure loss that hasn't been returned by efficency... even with a front mount on an SC only car...
but that sure was fun... thanks Doc!
Last edited by Tüls; Jul 11, 2007 at 02:41 PM.
Nothing says that your W2A system has to run
room temp water. In fact, for drag cars, you can run real real cool stuff through there. a frozen amonia slurry would cool it with stuff that's about -30 C!
When Jan and I were at one place specing out a prototype that never came to be, we were thinking of running a huge resevior where my airbox used to be (I run a HAI). The estimate was 1.5 hours of track time with the capacity that was available running a crushed ice mixture.
Matt
When Jan and I were at one place specing out a prototype that never came to be, we were thinking of running a huge resevior where my airbox used to be (I run a HAI). The estimate was 1.5 hours of track time with the capacity that was available running a crushed ice mixture.
Matt
81F ambient, 65F AIT at WOT...
Temporarily Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,382
Likes: 2
From: Denver
To answer an earlier question - I use the Gintani on the Mule. With the TK kit, it was starting to heat soak on the track in Summit Point, where the ambient temps were considerable. What is heat soak? Well, I define it as the point at which the system can no longer maintain temp, so it continues to climb or remain the same after load - no reduction after load drop. Once that happens, you are hosed, as the ECU will start to dump fuel at a predetermined IAT, and you trash the air/fuel ratio. It wasn't so bad that I would change it, as it only required momentary load shed to reduce the temp again (which is what I was doing on the straight with Steve right behind me!).
Without the load of the TK kit, I never saw any problem at all, mostly due the larger reservoir I use on the Mule - which is key to a w2a.
What I've seen is that there are few units on the market that really work, and several that are much worse than stock.
In the case of intercoolers, so far, you really do get what you pay for. The Pace and Gintani are a couple of the few that work.
Hope that helps!
Randy
Without the load of the TK kit, I never saw any problem at all, mostly due the larger reservoir I use on the Mule - which is key to a w2a.
What I've seen is that there are few units on the market that really work, and several that are much worse than stock.
In the case of intercoolers, so far, you really do get what you pay for. The Pace and Gintani are a couple of the few that work.
Hope that helps!
Randy
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
Ok I’m getting this now. Question: I was driving home from work today, dash temp. was reading 92f. Mostly highway driving, I pull into the garage, open the bonnet, my stock IC was only warm, the left horn was hot, the right horn was mostly cool. Now 20 minutes later I needed to leave. The IC is now very hot. Now the question: At normal driving speeds at 92f. How long will it take the IC to recover? It would seem that the stock IC would recover quickly as it is thin and small, no? Also would anyone know what the recovery times might be with a DFIC, and say a MM W2A IC? It would seem to me that a W2A IC would take much longer to recover as the water would have heated up sitting in my garage, correct? Now let’s change the scenario to lets say stopped at a stoplight after normal in town driving. Seems to me the stock IC would be the fastest at recovering or am I mistaken? Any ideas on my rambling? 
room temp water. In fact, for drag cars, you can run real real cool stuff through there. a frozen amonia slurry would cool it with stuff that's about -30 C!
When Jan and I were at one place specing out a prototype that never came to be, we were thinking of running a huge resevior where my airbox used to be (I run a HAI). The estimate was 1.5 hours of track time with the capacity that was available running a crushed ice mixture.
Matt
When Jan and I were at one place specing out a prototype that never came to be, we were thinking of running a huge resevior where my airbox used to be (I run a HAI). The estimate was 1.5 hours of track time with the capacity that was available running a crushed ice mixture.
Matt
Matt,
I just got in a W2A for the s/c Mini today.....
time for testing those laminova cores
Give me a call when you get time.... I want to go over the stuff we talked about over burritos
From Think Performance. It is an interesting design. Laminova core with a nice heat-sink on top. Just thought I would share.
Longboard
The Blizzard™ Intercooler uses superior design and manufacturing to create the most effective intercooler you can install on your Mini.
Utilizing the patented Laminova™ cooling tubes, the Blizzard bolts into the stock intercooler location, replacing that “heat magnet” installed by the factory. The result is a cooler running, more efficient forced induction system that ultimately will give you up to a 15% horsepower gain. With a reduction pulley installed, the gain is even more dramatic.
Like everything we build, we dyno-tested a Mini before and after installation of the Blizzard kit to prove the increased horsepower claims. Check out the dyno chart below to see for yourself.
The Blizzard is also easy to install. Everything needed is included to ensure a high-quality, factory looking installation. The average Mini owner whose comfortable working on their car can install the kit in two to three hours. Then the fun begins.
Ok I’m getting this now. Question: I was driving home from work today, dash temp. was reading 92f. Mostly highway driving, I pull into the garage, open the bonnet, my stock IC was only warm, the left horn was hot, the right horn was mostly cool. Now 20 minutes later I needed to leave. The IC is now very hot. Now the question: At normal driving speeds at 92f. How long will it take the IC to recover? It would seem that the stock IC would recover quickly as it is thin and small, no? Also would anyone know what the recovery times might be with a DFIC, and say a MM W2A IC? It would seem to me that a W2A IC would take much longer to recover as the water would have heated up sitting in my garage, correct? Now let’s change the scenario to lets say stopped at a stoplight after normal in town driving. Seems to me the stock IC would be the fastest at recovering or am I mistaken? Any ideas on my rambling?
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 654
Likes: 0
From: East SF Bay Area, CA
From Think Performance. It is an interesting design. Laminova core with a nice heat-sink on top. Just thought I would share.
Longboard
The Blizzard™ Intercooler uses superior design and manufacturing to create the most effective intercooler you can install on your Mini.
Utilizing the patented Laminova™ cooling tubes, the Blizzard bolts into the stock intercooler location, replacing that “heat magnet” installed by the factory. The result is a cooler running, more efficient forced induction system that ultimately will give you up to a 15% horsepower gain. With a reduction pulley installed, the gain is even more dramatic.
Like everything we build, we dyno-tested a Mini before and after installation of the Blizzard kit to prove the increased horsepower claims. Check out the dyno chart below to see for yourself.
The Blizzard is also easy to install. Everything needed is included to ensure a high-quality, factory looking installation. The average Mini owner whose comfortable working on their car can install the kit in two to three hours. Then the fun begins.
Nice find, Longboard!
http://www.think-performance.com/mini_intercooler.html
The heatsink on top of the W2A is brilliant, although the grilles look pretty thick. If it was more like a CPU heatsink with plates so thin they can dice, slice, and julienne, I imagine it would be even more effective. Also, the orientation of the plates seems like it would be pushing incoming air to the sides, causing some turbulence - I wonder if it would be a more effective heatsink if the grilles run front-to-back instead of side-to-side. Time for me to chat with Think! Performance to find out more information on this IC.
Nice find, Longboard!
http://www.think-performance.com/mini_intercooler.html
The heatsink on top of the W2A is brilliant, although the grilles look pretty thick. If it was more like a CPU heatsink with plates so thin they can dice, slice, and julienne, I imagine it would be even more effective. Also, the orientation of the plates seems like it would be pushing incoming air to the sides, causing some turbulence - I wonder if it would be a more effective heatsink if the grilles run front-to-back instead of side-to-side. Time for me to chat with Think! Performance to find out more information on this IC.
http://www.think-performance.com/mini_intercooler.html
The heatsink on top of the W2A is brilliant, although the grilles look pretty thick. If it was more like a CPU heatsink with plates so thin they can dice, slice, and julienne, I imagine it would be even more effective. Also, the orientation of the plates seems like it would be pushing incoming air to the sides, causing some turbulence - I wonder if it would be a more effective heatsink if the grilles run front-to-back instead of side-to-side. Time for me to chat with Think! Performance to find out more information on this IC.
I work with allot of high end two channel amps. The heatsink on most of these are thick.
I think the tank needs to be bigger but thats not a problem.
Longboat
The think unit looks identical to the old mini mania ultrik water to air unit if anyone remembers, they don't sell it anymore. My guess is that now the manufacturer, think, is selling the same unit since mini mania no longer does.
Temporarily Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,382
Likes: 2
From: Denver
I worked with a company in Colorado Springs area on a design that looks a lot like the Think - and the heat sink was our idea based on the intake testing we were doing at the time. It looks cool, and is easy to build, but it really doesn't make a big difference. Why not though if it is built in from the start!
The system that we were working on ended up as the Mini Mania system, so I wonder if it is the same company...
Hope that helps!
Randy
The system that we were working on ended up as the Mini Mania system, so I wonder if it is the same company...
Hope that helps!
Randy