Sometimes the sarcastic truth hurts! But if he doesn't like it... he should change his "superior" ways

 

I want to hear more about your IC... what did you have before.... are you able to monitor your IAT and ambient temps? if so what are the offsets? heat with a 62 is an issue to unlocking power..... why did you choose what you have?

 

Aww come on Longboard it's only $160.00 per. HP. .

 

I would add to this but my wife tells me I need to learn to be nicer. So I will just say +1 to your statement.

 

it sure looks like my GRS unit

 

I was thinking forge.

 

For sure.....

 

It not forge.

 

I was wondering when someone was going to mention the LDG IC. I have seen it up close and it is very well made. I was hoping John (from LDG) would step in and give some numbers/data on this.

 

Well to add to something earlier in the thread, the reason f1 cars don't use w2a's is because of waters heat sustaining properties. W2a's work well on the street because they're hardly exposed to high engine temp.s for a long period of time (the engine hardly at high rev.s long enough to heat the water up), since water doesn;t heat as quickly as air it will provide lower temps of air to the engine, this is the very reason a water to air intercooler was even thought up, the temps are more constant. An air to air temps in street driving will fluctuate much more than water. When you're driving at speed the a2a has a constant supply of cool air blowing over it providing cooler air to the engine, however when you stop the intercooler is sitting on the hot engine with no cool air to cool it down and since air heats up faster than water the air coming out of the a2a will begin to rise and you lose power. So the w2a is more ideally suited to city driving as it maintains a more constant, cooler charge to the engine UNTIL THE WATER BEGINS TO HEAT UP, now the same characteristic that makes w2a's so great for for street use becomes the enemy. Since water maintains it's temp better than air, the hot water will continue to supply your engine with hot air because the water won't cool down. This is the reason f1 cars use air to air, because an a2a will cool down quickly with cool air constantly blowing over it, where as a w2a will continue to provide hot air to the engine once the water is heated up regardless of the air blowing over it. So which one is better for you really depends on your driving, if you race you'll probably be better off with an a2a, and a w2a will probably be better for someone who does more to stop and go (until the water heats up) at which point the w2a comes back to bite you in the ***. It's just like anything else theres a trade off for either set up, and the right choice will very from individual to individual.

 

Says Turbonetics on the sticker on the IC think it's made by Spearco,top of IC sits flush with the bottom of the hood scoop.

 

This has been explained before many times.... and I buy the logic. but.... then someone goes to the track with a W2A and does not experience the "soak" problem and reports the engine runs great and strong the whole time.... several people have had very good success with a W2A on the track with the Mini engine.... and, the F1 engine and the state of the art modified Mini engine have very little in common and "methinks" that this logic ( like a lot of other myths about the Mini engine) doesn't hold up......

 

Right I think his post was more toward the f1 engine and not the mini engine.

Spearco makes quality ICs' ... I'm thinking about getting one for my truck

 

I'm sure it at least applies to the F1 engine but people read that and think that W2A on the Mini at the track is not a good application where almost everthing I have read by the owners of W2A at the track has been good if not great.... I'm sure there are exceptions or maybe rules but this is what I am trying to sort out.... who actually owns a W2A that tracks the car or runs the canyons or twisties and keeps the engine running hard for 20-30 minutes ata time.... what are their results.... that is what most of us want to know with regard to the W2A..... not that we can sit in traffic and preserve our power.

 

My earlier post was definetly directed to the f1 engine and as to wy they use an a2a vs a w2a. I think this is good knowledge to keep in mind though when comparing the two. Also the amount of water that is used in a w2a has to be taken into account when looking at w2a's. The less water that the system uses the quicker the water will heat up. Also does anyone know at what point the temp of the charge air has to be before it starts to really adversely affect the performance? LIke a scale or graph or something would be great and would really help to show just which system is better for all around driving vs' racing around a track. And why does m7 use the dfic instead of creating a w2a, their products are always so thought out, there must be a reason?

 

Great questions

The good news is that the resident physicist, Dr. O, is back among the living and should be able to "chime in" soon.

Others ..... please bring it if you got it

 

A2A

• has some issues mostly with pressure drop vs cooling efficiency.
• Thermal mass of the units is small relative to a W2A, but varies greatly among A2A. This has bearing on recovery and heat soak.
• Low heat capacity cooling medium (air heats up a lot as you add calories into it).
• Has only one temp exchange event to worry about.
• As a really screwy cooling air flow path (even the flow throughs take air from a non-ideal location.
• Are really easy to install (except for FMICs)

W2A

• wieghs more.
• Higher heat capacity exhange medium (water heats less per calorie abosorbed than air).
• Has two heat exchange events to worry about.
• Has much more thermal mass.
• Has resevoir potential (Run under ambient cooling liquid).
• You can put the cooling radiator where it should be, and get real good air flow to it, even at low speeds.

Now, in an ideal world, where you can engineer the cooling air flow to be optimal for the speed the car will be running and the temp drop required, A2A are going to win because of the weight and the overall system efficiency potential (one heat exchange event vs two). But the Mini packaging and use cases are far from the idea of the F1 world, and now you have to choose your compramise.

Do you have other ways to cool the charge? If so, then something with very low pressure drop and not as good cooling may be for you.

Do you do mostly street driving? If so, then high cooling efficiency is a higher priority then pressure drop.

Do you live at high RPM? Then pressure drop is a killer, and a core that has less pressure drop is key for success.

Is recovery (Stop-start driving) important for you? Then something like the W2A or low thermal mass or fast recovery units may be better for you.

There's no "best" for all uses. Even for any type of car (high HP or close to stock) there's no "best". What you're stuck with is the least bad compramise for what you spend most of your time doing.

Matt

 

I do not agree pressure drop is an issue if yer A2A IC is efficient. the most drop I have seen from a top mount is 1 lb... which is 5 hp LOL but the gain was 30% efficiency... do the math... sure the car is not as punchy... but that matters for about a second... when the efficiency takes over an you pull away smiling... you get alot more than 5 hp back

The W2A is great for those who wanna know yer really picking up the ambient air for your cooling... but even then like the A2A is only as good as the air moving over/through it... therefore effecting it's ability to cool...

W2A is more consistent... this is evident on the dyno.. and with both W2A and A2A, if it's doing well on the dyno... the hottest and most abusive of instances... then you know it will do well with the right amount of air moving over it...

in most cases the top mounts are just too dang small...

even with my 24" Wide x 12" Tall x 3" Deep FMIC I only lost 4 lbs... but gained so much efficiency I can run 91 with little to no detonation... and that's at 24 lbs! (after drop)

this applies to all the R56 owners too... better IC... GOOOD!

 

Power comes from the amount of oxygen you can burn. This is a function of pressure and tempurature. To ignore one means that you can't have a complete picture of what's going on.

As far as logged pressure drops, I've posted some from about 5 different ICs, and they vary considerably, with some dropping more than 1 psi at 5000 RPM no load....

Matt

 

At wide open throttle and full boost the hot compressed air coming from a SC/turbocharger is probably 250 and 350 deg F or more...depending on the particular air mover/compressor, boost pressure, outside air temperature, etc.. We want to cool it down, which reduces its volume so we can pack more air molecules into the cylinders and reduce the engine's likelihood of detonation.

you cannot calculate boost drop based on no load... the BPV is open... an therefore ofcourse there is a boost drop.. you're in vacum...heck... even I get a boost drop at 5000 with no load... and I don't ahve a BPV LOL

it's at WOT that the IC matters... is it working under full boost with full load... and if so... how efficent is it... how can you mesure it's efficency if you are not giving it all it has to take at the more crucial time...

I am not saying drop is ALWAYS good... just that it's not nessisarily the issue that it has been made out to be by some vendors...

there are alot of myths that exist in the MINI community due to sales strategies of vendors...

 

that no matter the test, one can plot the pressure drop vs RPM in a repeatable way. While air is flowing back through the BPV, the TB is limiting the upside pressure to limit airflow so you still end up with less mass flow than WOT against boost (which I agree would give a different curve). I'd guess that total airflow is much higher at WOT full load, but that would INCREASE measured pressure dropsas a function of RPM, as would the temp induced increase in volume.

Next time I do a pressure curve, I'll tie the bpv close. I tried to get the data during power runs, but the guage I have doesn't like the transients and didn't give any usefull data.

Matt

 

I dont understand why you think the drop would increase... once you fill the box... ... it's... well... ful.. LOL... but if the box is bigger than this is why you see drop... but only till it's full then it holds... but like I said... there isn't enough room under there to make one big enough to have that big of a drop... therefore the drop vs RPM delta should be the same... but if you gain 30% efficency... then that 1 lb loss is far exceeded :D YAY!

with out testing ICs under WOT is like trying to tune a car while it's idling... it serves no purpose.... you can't say that it's going to be ok for the times when it recives the worst load conditions... no load no boost... no boost no hot air to cool... no hot air to cool... wait.... what are we testing again... LOL

now if it's working at WOT in the worst of conditions... chances are... it's gunnah be ok crusing and idling... LOL

 

goes with the square of the airflow. So you double the flow rate you quadrouple the pressure drop. So the no load conditon isn't flowing as much air as the WOT case, pressure drop vs RPM will be worse at WOT than no load.

Matt

 

Now this thread is getting good, thanks Dr. O and Tuls .

 

I think this is a debate with no true conclusion, as it's so use case dependant.

Here's what I've learned with all the ICs I've played with:

Every one can be improved.
Most can benefit from some work on the diverter system, as leakage here is very very bad.
These aren't early mods to do, as there is more bang for the buck to be found elsewhere.

that and some of the posts above really encompass all there is to say....

Matt