Drivetrain Intercoolers
It depends...
on how long you run the pump for . All cars today can run the radiator fan if needed after shut off. They don't drain the battery too much. If you're not running a lightweight racing battery, there are no problems. If you have it set up with a switch and forget to turn it off, then yes, you will eventally need jumper cables.
Matt
Matt
My earlier post was definetly directed to the f1 engine and as to wy they use an a2a vs a w2a. I think this is good knowledge to keep in mind though when comparing the two. Also the amount of water that is used in a w2a has to be taken into account when looking at w2a's. The less water that the system uses the quicker the water will heat up. Also does anyone know at what point the temp of the charge air has to be before it starts to really adversely affect the performance? LIke a scale or graph or something would be great and would really help to show just which system is better for all around driving vs' racing around a track. And why does m7 use the dfic instead of creating a w2a, their products are always so thought out, there must be a reason?
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
correction... Alta was the first.. but M7 was the first to release it....
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Because they were the first to post here on NAM (a prototype), Alta was apparently the first, according to some 
. I had photos from M7 before that, but such a discussion is asinine, I feel... M7 was first to market, and that aspect, is not debatable.
The reasons I have not considered a water system:
- Pricing at tpyically 2x, or more
- Not a 20-30 min install, and might require professional installation (mo $)
- Certainly more weight on an already nose-heavy car...
- Another heat exchanger in front of the radiator
I've got money to spend on my MINI, and I would be willing to entertain disregarding the above mentioned concerns if there was very compelling evidence that a water system delivered hands-down noteworthy gains over air. It seems that at best it is better in only certain situations. If water is lost, or vaporizes (yes, that seems to happen), the IC quickly becomes wickely hot. Given the above associated "costs," I'll pass... as the tradeoffs don't make it wortwhile, for me at least.
Factor in that if anything non-CARB goes on my MINI, I want it to be easily removable, or at least highly stealth. This does not qualify there as well. Just one's cost/benefit analysis...
. I had photos from M7 before that, but such a discussion is asinine, I feel... M7 was first to market, and that aspect, is not debatable.The reasons I have not considered a water system:
- Pricing at tpyically 2x, or more
- Not a 20-30 min install, and might require professional installation (mo $)
- Certainly more weight on an already nose-heavy car...
- Another heat exchanger in front of the radiator
I've got money to spend on my MINI, and I would be willing to entertain disregarding the above mentioned concerns if there was very compelling evidence that a water system delivered hands-down noteworthy gains over air. It seems that at best it is better in only certain situations. If water is lost, or vaporizes (yes, that seems to happen), the IC quickly becomes wickely hot. Given the above associated "costs," I'll pass... as the tradeoffs don't make it wortwhile, for me at least.
Factor in that if anything non-CARB goes on my MINI, I want it to be easily removable, or at least highly stealth. This does not qualify there as well. Just one's cost/benefit analysis...
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
I retract... if that is the case... MY BAD!
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
Because they were the first to post here on NAM (a prototype), Alta was apparently the first, according to some . I had photos from M7 before that, but such a discussion is asinine, I feel... M7 was first to market, and that aspect, is not debatable.
The reasons I have not considered a water system:
- Pricing at tpyically 2x, or more
- Not a 20-30 min install, and might require professional installation (mo $)
- Certainly more weight on an already nose-heavy car...
- Another heat exchanger in front of the radiator
I've got money to spend on my MINI, and I would be willing to entertain disregarding the above mentioned concerns if there was very compelling evidence that a water system delivered hands-down noteworthy gains over air. It seems that at best it is better in only certain situations. If water is lost, or vaporizes (yes, that seems to happen), the IC quickly becomes wickely hot. Given the above associated "costs," I'll pass... as the tradeoffs don't make it wortwhile, for me at least.
Factor in that if anything non-CARB goes on my MINI, I want it to be easily removable, or at least highly stealth. This does not qualify there as well. Just one's cost/benefit analysis...
. I had photos from M7 before that, but such a discussion is asinine, I feel... M7 was first to market, and that aspect, is not debatable.The reasons I have not considered a water system:
- Pricing at tpyically 2x, or more
- Not a 20-30 min install, and might require professional installation (mo $)
- Certainly more weight on an already nose-heavy car...
- Another heat exchanger in front of the radiator
I've got money to spend on my MINI, and I would be willing to entertain disregarding the above mentioned concerns if there was very compelling evidence that a water system delivered hands-down noteworthy gains over air. It seems that at best it is better in only certain situations. If water is lost, or vaporizes (yes, that seems to happen), the IC quickly becomes wickely hot. Given the above associated "costs," I'll pass... as the tradeoffs don't make it wortwhile, for me at least.
Factor in that if anything non-CARB goes on my MINI, I want it to be easily removable, or at least highly stealth. This does not qualify there as well. Just one's cost/benefit analysis...
.
But remember...
Tony has taken weight reduction very, very seriously on his car. One individual part isn't much of a big deal, but tons of parts do add up.
Matt
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Weight does matter, especially for those concerned about performance; as I think most should be who post here (NAM's "performance" forum). This is so b/c the MATH does bear this out...
Tuls, no biggie man.
Tuls, no biggie man.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,639
Likes: 0
From: Fresno, Ca.
I agree if you add little things here and there next thing you know you've added 200 LBS and that does matter.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Agreed Matt!
I see these guys are posting from Fresno, so they know about heat!!! I can appreciate the concern guys.
If I was building a MINI for the dragstrip, for some city stoplight fun (disclaimer: not condonig this), or do be a dyno star, a water system does make sense for sure. Ice, ice baby!
As Matt said some time ago, this is all full of compromises, as is life. The DFIC (as the Alta v2) is an attempt to obtain some of the virtues of an FMIC, while staying in the stock top-mount location, and eliminating some of the drawbacks (cost, complexity of install, and pressure loss due to extra plumbing). The current DFIC was designed for the street, and from what some have noted, including research from Matt, and some limited evaluation from myself, it serves that purpose quite well (better than my improved GRS system and stock IC with larger scoop). It seems that with higher output engines, and under harsher conditions, the DFIC doesn't shine as well. It sounds as though Peter of M7 is having another DFIC made for these purposes. As for me, for my 15 or so minute canyon bursts and/or commutes, the DFIC, at least with my current mods, is the best I've had...
I see these guys are posting from Fresno, so they know about heat!!! I can appreciate the concern guys.
If I was building a MINI for the dragstrip, for some city stoplight fun (disclaimer: not condonig this), or do be a dyno star, a water system does make sense for sure. Ice, ice baby!
As Matt said some time ago, this is all full of compromises, as is life. The DFIC (as the Alta v2) is an attempt to obtain some of the virtues of an FMIC, while staying in the stock top-mount location, and eliminating some of the drawbacks (cost, complexity of install, and pressure loss due to extra plumbing). The current DFIC was designed for the street, and from what some have noted, including research from Matt, and some limited evaluation from myself, it serves that purpose quite well (better than my improved GRS system and stock IC with larger scoop). It seems that with higher output engines, and under harsher conditions, the DFIC doesn't shine as well. It sounds as though Peter of M7 is having another DFIC made for these purposes. As for me, for my 15 or so minute canyon bursts and/or commutes, the DFIC, at least with my current mods, is the best I've had...
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
Agreed Matt!
I see these guys are posting from Fresno, so they know about heat!!! I can appreciate the concern guys.
If I was building a MINI for the dragstrip, for some city stoplight fun (disclaimer: not condonig this), or do be a dyno star, a water system does make sense for sure. Ice, ice baby!
As Matt said some time ago, this is all full of compromises, as is life. The DFIC (as the Alta v2) is an attempt to obtain some of the virtues of an FMIC, while staying in the stock top-mount location, and eliminating some of the drawbacks (cost, complexity of install, and pressure loss due to extra plumbing). The current DFIC was designed for the street, and from what some have noted, including research from Matt, and some limited evaluation from myself, it serves that purpose quite well (better than my improved GRS system and stock IC with larger scoop). It seems that with higher output engines, and under harsher conditions, the DFIC doesn't shine as well. It sounds as though Peter of M7 is having another DFIC made for these purposes. As for me, for my 15 or so minute canyon bursts and/or commutes, the DFIC, at least with my current mods, is the best I've had...
I see these guys are posting from Fresno, so they know about heat!!! I can appreciate the concern guys.
If I was building a MINI for the dragstrip, for some city stoplight fun (disclaimer: not condonig this), or do be a dyno star, a water system does make sense for sure. Ice, ice baby!
As Matt said some time ago, this is all full of compromises, as is life. The DFIC (as the Alta v2) is an attempt to obtain some of the virtues of an FMIC, while staying in the stock top-mount location, and eliminating some of the drawbacks (cost, complexity of install, and pressure loss due to extra plumbing). The current DFIC was designed for the street, and from what some have noted, including research from Matt, and some limited evaluation from myself, it serves that purpose quite well (better than my improved GRS system and stock IC with larger scoop). It seems that with higher output engines, and under harsher conditions, the DFIC doesn't shine as well. It sounds as though Peter of M7 is having another DFIC made for these purposes. As for me, for my 15 or so minute canyon bursts and/or commutes, the DFIC, at least with my current mods, is the best I've had...
.
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
yeah for sure.... sorry about that that prolly came off wrong....
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
My undergrad football team scouts Fresno talent (namely the Clovis schools) very well, so I make it a point to visit Fresno during the Fall sometimes, and it is always HOT!!! It actually hit the 90's here today also... Keep cool.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
. I,m sure you have experianced it .
6th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,049
Likes: 1
From: Golden, Colo.
It was 94 here in Rancho Santa Margarita today. I am looking for a better IC and will be testing the laminova W2A for RMW's very soon. Jan has some really great ideas and is the only guy I know crazy enough to to see then to completion.
I do love my WMI system for days like these. It's progressive and tunable for days like this.
Longboard
Last edited by Longboard Mini; Jul 13, 2007 at 10:24 PM.
I know the tule fog all to well. I lived in Auburn for a short while and drove to fresno for jobs a few times. You can not explain how thick that fog is.
It was 94 here in Rancho Santa Margarita today. I am looking for a better IC and will be testing the laminova W2A for RMW's very soon. I do love my WMI system for days like these. It's progressive and tunable for days like this.
Longboard
It was 94 here in Rancho Santa Margarita today. I am looking for a better IC and will be testing the laminova W2A for RMW's very soon. I do love my WMI system for days like these. It's progressive and tunable for days like this.
Longboard
Wait til you hear the GP with the new Custom RMW exhaust and "special" collector made for the JCW head
Jan and I did a little racing today along with six other friends. Man that was fun.
Longboard
I added a couple things to the car tonight
. Longboard
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
on how long you run the pump for . All cars today can run the radiator fan if needed after shut off. They don't drain the battery too much. If you're not running a lightweight racing battery, there are no problems. If you have it set up with a switch and forget to turn it off, then yes, you will eventally need jumper cables.
Matt
Matt
Thread Starter
|
1st Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
To answer an earlier question - I use the Gintani on the Mule. With the TK kit, it was starting to heat soak on the track in Summit Point, where the ambient temps were considerable. What is heat soak? Well, I define it as the point at which the system can no longer maintain temp, so it continues to climb or remain the same after load - no reduction after load drop. Once that happens, you are hosed, as the ECU will start to dump fuel at a predetermined IAT, and you trash the air/fuel ratio. It wasn't so bad that I would change it, as it only required momentary load shed to reduce the temp again (which is what I was doing on the straight with Steve right behind me!).
Without the load of the TK kit, I never saw any problem at all, mostly due the larger reservoir I use on the Mule - which is key to a w2a.
What I've seen is that there are few units on the market that really work, and several that are much worse than stock.
In the case of intercoolers, so far, you really do get what you pay for. The Pace and Gintani are a couple of the few that work.
Hope that helps!
Randy
Without the load of the TK kit, I never saw any problem at all, mostly due the larger reservoir I use on the Mule - which is key to a w2a.
What I've seen is that there are few units on the market that really work, and several that are much worse than stock.
In the case of intercoolers, so far, you really do get what you pay for. The Pace and Gintani are a couple of the few that work.
Hope that helps!
Randy
TK Kit?