Drivetrain Intercoolers
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
I'm gonna weigh my 2 cents in on this discussion…
I've been heavily into the Asian import car scene for close to 15 years now. In the import scene there has been a lot of research and product development in intake temperature management. In the early 90's basically every major after market developer and tuning shop quit using and developing WTA intercoolers and switched over to high flow FMIC setups. They are simple, lighter, cheaper and more efficient at speed.
The extra complexity of WTA adds a higher chance of failure and we all know that failure under boost = BOOM. WTA setups also add weight in the one place you don't want it, high & in front of the wheels.
Any intercooler placed under a hood will suffer from heat soak. It just takes the WTA setups longer to get there.
The best way to manage under hood intercooler temps is to utilize water spray and/or water injection. The newer N20 sprayer setups are awesome for short stints. And I've seen some methanol injection systems for those brass *****-high boost types.
As I said above I'm new to the MINI scene but I'm surprised to see people arguing over stuff that was settled over 10 years ago in the import scene. I never understood why the European import scene and Asian import scene couldn't get along better. Both could learn a lot from each other.
I'm sure I'll **** off all the guys who spent the $$$ on a WTA setup. But hey it's your car, do as you please.
For me, I'll stick with improving the stock setup until a decent, reasonably priced FMIC kit is out. Or I get around to making my own.
I've been heavily into the Asian import car scene for close to 15 years now. In the import scene there has been a lot of research and product development in intake temperature management. In the early 90's basically every major after market developer and tuning shop quit using and developing WTA intercoolers and switched over to high flow FMIC setups. They are simple, lighter, cheaper and more efficient at speed.
The extra complexity of WTA adds a higher chance of failure and we all know that failure under boost = BOOM. WTA setups also add weight in the one place you don't want it, high & in front of the wheels.
Any intercooler placed under a hood will suffer from heat soak. It just takes the WTA setups longer to get there.
The best way to manage under hood intercooler temps is to utilize water spray and/or water injection. The newer N20 sprayer setups are awesome for short stints. And I've seen some methanol injection systems for those brass *****-high boost types.
As I said above I'm new to the MINI scene but I'm surprised to see people arguing over stuff that was settled over 10 years ago in the import scene. I never understood why the European import scene and Asian import scene couldn't get along better. Both could learn a lot from each other.
I'm sure I'll **** off all the guys who spent the $$$ on a WTA setup. But hey it's your car, do as you please.
For me, I'll stick with improving the stock setup until a decent, reasonably priced FMIC kit is out. Or I get around to making my own.
Russ,
Just so you know... you are going to loose your hair, patience, and probably a couple of keyboards reading nam...
good luck
You are 100% correct..
I'm gonna weigh my 2 cents in on this discussion…
I've been heavily into the Asian import car scene for close to 15 years now. In the import scene there has been a lot of research and product development in intake temperature management. In the early 90's basically every major after market developer and tuning shop quit using and developing WTA intercoolers and switched over to high flow FMIC setups. They are simple, lighter, cheaper and more efficient at speed.
The extra complexity of WTA adds a higher chance of failure and we all know that failure under boost = BOOM. WTA setups also add weight in the one place you don't want it, high & in front of the wheels.
Any intercooler placed under a hood will suffer from heat soak. It just takes the WTA setups longer to get there.
The best way to manage under hood intercooler temps is to utilize water spray and/or water injection. The newer N20 sprayer setups are awesome for short stints. And I've seen some methanol injection systems for those brass *****-high boost types.
As I said above I'm new to the MINI scene but I'm surprised to see people arguing over stuff that was settled over 10 years ago in the import scene. I never understood why the European import scene and Asian import scene couldn't get along better. Both could learn a lot from each other.
I'm sure I'll **** off all the guys who spent the $$$ on a WTA setup. But hey it's your car, do as you please.
For me, I'll stick with improving the stock setup until a decent, reasonably priced FMIC kit is out. Or I get around to making my own.
I've been heavily into the Asian import car scene for close to 15 years now. In the import scene there has been a lot of research and product development in intake temperature management. In the early 90's basically every major after market developer and tuning shop quit using and developing WTA intercoolers and switched over to high flow FMIC setups. They are simple, lighter, cheaper and more efficient at speed.
The extra complexity of WTA adds a higher chance of failure and we all know that failure under boost = BOOM. WTA setups also add weight in the one place you don't want it, high & in front of the wheels.
Any intercooler placed under a hood will suffer from heat soak. It just takes the WTA setups longer to get there.
The best way to manage under hood intercooler temps is to utilize water spray and/or water injection. The newer N20 sprayer setups are awesome for short stints. And I've seen some methanol injection systems for those brass *****-high boost types.
As I said above I'm new to the MINI scene but I'm surprised to see people arguing over stuff that was settled over 10 years ago in the import scene. I never understood why the European import scene and Asian import scene couldn't get along better. Both could learn a lot from each other.
I'm sure I'll **** off all the guys who spent the $$$ on a WTA setup. But hey it's your car, do as you please.
For me, I'll stick with improving the stock setup until a decent, reasonably priced FMIC kit is out. Or I get around to making my own.
Matt
in general. The problem with the Mini is routing the air for a front mount is a pain, so what to do about the compramised location on top of the engine? And in general, while W2A won't do as well on average for long runs, there are many a use case when a properly engineered system can deliver real benefits over the stock set up.
Matt
Matt
__________________
2013 GP2 #295, 270whp/310wtq, KO4 47mm Turbo, 18" NM Wheels, Alta intake, Manic Stage III+, HFS-3 Meth, 30% E85 Blend, Forged IC, Alta Hot Pipe, P&P/Ceramic Exhaust Manifold, m3 Extreme Ceramic DP, Vibrant mid res, 4" Double walled Tips, WMW/KW V3 CO, Alta Rear CA, CREE Fogs, Black out F/R Rings and Gas Cap, M7 CF Front Splitter, and No Stickers. MORE TO COME!! Previous 04Triple Black 17% Alta, MM Air/H2O, CAI, OBX Header, FBT Head, Shrick Cam, 234whp
2013 GP2 #295, 270whp/310wtq, KO4 47mm Turbo, 18" NM Wheels, Alta intake, Manic Stage III+, HFS-3 Meth, 30% E85 Blend, Forged IC, Alta Hot Pipe, P&P/Ceramic Exhaust Manifold, m3 Extreme Ceramic DP, Vibrant mid res, 4" Double walled Tips, WMW/KW V3 CO, Alta Rear CA, CREE Fogs, Black out F/R Rings and Gas Cap, M7 CF Front Splitter, and No Stickers. MORE TO COME!! Previous 04Triple Black 17% Alta, MM Air/H2O, CAI, OBX Header, FBT Head, Shrick Cam, 234whp
Banned
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 715
Likes: 2
Well put and said !
Wow!
Russell Cory a college of the world of applied physic's.If you read my little blerp I have already gone way beyond fantasy.
Dr. O
Auh ....I tried the W2A in the suggested manufacture location. (bad) In reading you will see I choose an alternate improved method mounting location . (better) Then I went back to the A2A (room for improvement from suggested application.... applied)
Last edited by Nitrominis; Aug 7, 2007 at 08:43 PM.
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore
WOW! I didn't expect so many responses.
I think it's cool that people are discussing the options that are out there.
I forgot to mention that the DFIC setups would probally work a lot better if the air actually had somewhere to go once it leaves the back of the IC. Probally a bunch of slits in the hood with a flow pan off the back of the IC would make these setups work almost as well as a FMIC.
I haven't pulled my bumper off to take a look at what may or may not work for a FMIC on the MINI. Time will tell if someone gets creative. Iv'e seen the Asian import tuners do some really amazing stuff with squeezing FMICs into unusual places. So it's only a matter of time until someone here in the MINI community starts thinking out of the box.
PS. Iv'e watched hacked up CRX's, Neons and Civics walk down Vipers and Z06 Vettes. I kinda dig cars with a high ugly to ***** out fast ratio.
I think it's cool that people are discussing the options that are out there.
I forgot to mention that the DFIC setups would probally work a lot better if the air actually had somewhere to go once it leaves the back of the IC. Probally a bunch of slits in the hood with a flow pan off the back of the IC would make these setups work almost as well as a FMIC.
I haven't pulled my bumper off to take a look at what may or may not work for a FMIC on the MINI. Time will tell if someone gets creative. Iv'e seen the Asian import tuners do some really amazing stuff with squeezing FMICs into unusual places. So it's only a matter of time until someone here in the MINI community starts thinking out of the box.
PS. Iv'e watched hacked up CRX's, Neons and Civics walk down Vipers and Z06 Vettes. I kinda dig cars with a high ugly to ***** out fast ratio.
Yes, it's called a sawzall
Most Mini owners are NOT going to do that to their cars. Some of us do
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...4&d=1183697570
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore
Yes, it's called a sawzall
Most Mini owners are NOT going to do that to their cars. Some of us do
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...4&d=1183697570
Most Mini owners are NOT going to do that to their cars. Some of us do
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...4&d=1183697570
Now THATS what I'm talking about. Ingenuity!
I bet a custom FMIC would fit if the lower grill was removed. It could be treated black for stealth…
Kinda like what some of the 204SX & Evo guys are doing.
Hmmm…
Now you got me thinking.
I'll have to take a look while I'm installing my fire suppression system.
Now THATS what I'm talking about. Ingenuity!
I bet a custom FMIC would fit if the lower grill was removed. It could be treated black for stealth…
Kinda like what some of the 204SX & Evo guys are doing.
Hmmm…
Now you got me thinking.
I'll have to take a look while I'm installing my fire suppression system.
I bet a custom FMIC would fit if the lower grill was removed. It could be treated black for stealth…
Kinda like what some of the 204SX & Evo guys are doing.
Hmmm…
Now you got me thinking.
I'll have to take a look while I'm installing my fire suppression system.
Of course it's ice water at 20 gallons per minute..........
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore
Thanks, I think a couple of simple vents in the same spot could do the trick to. It will be interesting to see what the results are.
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore
Did you install a dorm fridge in the back to keep all that water cooled down?
Besides melting ice quick,you can't get below ambient
I think with the summer heat wave everyone is dying for the great performance of cooler ambient temps, the cooler nights or the fall and spring. 45*- 60* versus 85*-105* days. My Butt dyno feels about 25-30+ hp diff with the different ambients. But you can't expect your poor old intercooler to get the hp back, whatever configuration you have. Because it won't go below ambient ever
. Unless it has help. (NOS ,ice ,etc)So wait for cooler weather, and grin
. Unless it has help. (NOS ,ice ,etc)So wait for cooler weather, and grin
My little dose of LITHIUM
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 2
From: Albuquerque New Mexico
JPMM is right, unless you can get some "wind chill factor". Injecting something cold, or volatile, into the charge before the intake manifold is one way to get IATs below ambient. I might be possible to get the air in the airbox cold enough so that the IC can keep the negative approach to the intake manifold. Unlikely, but maybe in winter.
RMW--how are you getting your -10F approach?
thanks,
RMW--how are you getting your -10F approach?
thanks,
That's a laim statment.
There are many FMIC's floating around here that have been custom built...Almost all of them are either twin charge or turbo only...Take THAT into consideration as well.
There are many people in the mini community thinking outside the box, just because YOU don't know it, doesn't mean it's not happening!
Happy motoring and welcome to NAM
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,731
Likes: 0
From: Anaheim, CA
Yes, it's called a sawzall
Most Mini owners are NOT going to do that to their cars. Some of us do
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...4&d=1183697570
Most Mini owners are NOT going to do that to their cars. Some of us do
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...4&d=1183697570
Is that a load bearing intercooler?!
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
JPMM is right, unless you can get some "wind chill factor". Injecting something cold, or volatile, into the charge before the intake manifold is one way to get IATs below ambient. I might be possible to get the air in the airbox cold enough so that the IC can keep the negative approach to the intake manifold. Unlikely, but maybe in winter.
RMW--how are you getting your -10F approach?
thanks,
RMW--how are you getting your -10F approach?
thanks,
"
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,398
Likes: 0
From: Orange County, NY
Sorry that i dont remember the name of the article, or the issue for that matter. But in Mc2 a guy raced a mcs that had a fmic right behind to top grill the pipeing seemed short enough that the loss of boost would be a major deal. correct me if im wrong but that would seem like a ic option that one of the major mc tuners should do. It might solve the problem.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
WOW! I didn't expect so many responses.
I think it's cool that people are discussing the options that are out there.
I forgot to mention that the DFIC setups would probally work a lot better if the air actually had somewhere to go once it leaves the back of the IC. Probally a bunch of slits in the hood with a flow pan off the back of the IC would make these setups work almost as well as a FMIC.
I haven't pulled my bumper off to take a look at what may or may not work for a FMIC on the MINI. Time will tell if someone gets creative. Iv'e seen the Asian import tuners do some really amazing stuff with squeezing FMICs into unusual places. So it's only a matter of time until someone here in the MINI community starts thinking out of the box.
PS. Iv'e watched hacked up CRX's, Neons and Civics walk down Vipers and Z06 Vettes. I kinda dig cars with a high ugly to ***** out fast ratio.
I think it's cool that people are discussing the options that are out there.
I forgot to mention that the DFIC setups would probally work a lot better if the air actually had somewhere to go once it leaves the back of the IC. Probally a bunch of slits in the hood with a flow pan off the back of the IC would make these setups work almost as well as a FMIC.
I haven't pulled my bumper off to take a look at what may or may not work for a FMIC on the MINI. Time will tell if someone gets creative. Iv'e seen the Asian import tuners do some really amazing stuff with squeezing FMICs into unusual places. So it's only a matter of time until someone here in the MINI community starts thinking out of the box.
PS. Iv'e watched hacked up CRX's, Neons and Civics walk down Vipers and Z06 Vettes. I kinda dig cars with a high ugly to ***** out fast ratio.
Sorry that i dont remember the name of the article, or the issue for that matter. But in Mc2 a guy raced a mcs that had a fmic right behind to top grill the pipeing seemed short enough that the loss of boost would be a major deal. correct me if im wrong but that would seem like a ic option that one of the major mc tuners should do. It might solve the problem.
again, most will NOT cut up the car to accomplish what you are talking about.