Drivetrain Intercoolers
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
Is it a RED & yellow poke a dot, or, a red & YELLOW poke a dot.....???
All the after market ICs fot the Mini have some merit, some more than others. As Randy says "you get what you pay for" , however, this depends on engine mods & driving style. In the end the consumer is the final judge.
As far as W2A, for most of us that drive on the street, 99% of the time W2A is the best solution.
Weight? If you weigh 220, my 170 wins.
F1 cars, if they had an IC, would not consider a W2A, for, #1 weight or efficency. Their traffic is faster than most can even imagine, not to mention the air flow.
This subject has been worked to death. Many NAMers have documented hours of loged information on different aftermarket ICs. The OE IC is always the best solution for the everyday driver that only wants a bit more out of the car. The W2A loses here for cost only.
Bottom line, there are better ways to make power over the long haul than a big expensive aftermarket IC on a slightly moded Mini. With an Alta diverter on a stock IC & some dry ice packed on that IC = 10 - 20 ( wrap dependant ) minutes of big power. Cost? Nothing, with the OE diverter ( you can get more ice withe the Alta - ice cubes also fit much better ) if you know a hot rodder at the local Stop & Shop.
All the after market ICs fot the Mini have some merit, some more than others. As Randy says "you get what you pay for" , however, this depends on engine mods & driving style. In the end the consumer is the final judge.
As far as W2A, for most of us that drive on the street, 99% of the time W2A is the best solution.
Weight? If you weigh 220, my 170 wins.
F1 cars, if they had an IC, would not consider a W2A, for, #1 weight or efficency. Their traffic is faster than most can even imagine, not to mention the air flow.
This subject has been worked to death. Many NAMers have documented hours of loged information on different aftermarket ICs. The OE IC is always the best solution for the everyday driver that only wants a bit more out of the car. The W2A loses here for cost only.
Bottom line, there are better ways to make power over the long haul than a big expensive aftermarket IC on a slightly moded Mini. With an Alta diverter on a stock IC & some dry ice packed on that IC = 10 - 20 ( wrap dependant ) minutes of big power. Cost? Nothing, with the OE diverter ( you can get more ice withe the Alta - ice cubes also fit much better ) if you know a hot rodder at the local Stop & Shop.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
Is it a RED & yellow poke a dot, or, a red & YELLOW poke a dot.....???
All the after market ICs fot the Mini have some merit, some more than others. As Randy says "you get what you pay for" , however, this depends on engine mods & driving style. In the end the consumer is the final judge.
As far as W2A, for most of us that drive on the street, 99% of the time W2A is the best solution.
Weight? If you weigh 220, my 170 wins.
F1 cars, if they had an IC, would not consider a W2A, for, #1 weight or efficency. Their traffic is faster than most can even imagine, not to mention the air flow.
This subject has been worked to death. Many NAMers have documented hours of loged information on different aftermarket ICs. The OE IC is always the best solution for the everyday driver that only wants a bit more out of the car. The W2A loses here for cost only.
Bottom line, there are better ways to make power over the long haul than a big expensive aftermarket IC on a slightly moded Mini. With an Alta diverter on a stock IC & some dry ice packed on that IC = 10 - 20 ( wrap dependant ) minutes of big power. Cost? Nothing, with the OE diverter ( you can get more ice withe the Alta - ice cubes also fit much better ) if you know a hot rodder at the local Stop & Shop.
All the after market ICs fot the Mini have some merit, some more than others. As Randy says "you get what you pay for" , however, this depends on engine mods & driving style. In the end the consumer is the final judge.
As far as W2A, for most of us that drive on the street, 99% of the time W2A is the best solution.
Weight? If you weigh 220, my 170 wins.
F1 cars, if they had an IC, would not consider a W2A, for, #1 weight or efficency. Their traffic is faster than most can even imagine, not to mention the air flow.
This subject has been worked to death. Many NAMers have documented hours of loged information on different aftermarket ICs. The OE IC is always the best solution for the everyday driver that only wants a bit more out of the car. The W2A loses here for cost only.
Bottom line, there are better ways to make power over the long haul than a big expensive aftermarket IC on a slightly moded Mini. With an Alta diverter on a stock IC & some dry ice packed on that IC = 10 - 20 ( wrap dependant ) minutes of big power. Cost? Nothing, with the OE diverter ( you can get more ice withe the Alta - ice cubes also fit much better ) if you know a hot rodder at the local Stop & Shop.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
What to do? What to do.........
this will / may sound stupid but ... that's never stopped me in the past so ; the ic could benefit from heat straps / sinks . it seems .
it's isolated from the big block of steel by rubber . with all the engine bay heat removing efforts going on ; i'll assume successfully, the straps may some day be a way to transfer heat to the engine. if the engine is cooler than the ic , wouldn't the heat go from ic to engine? or would the transfer be miniscule? yeah i guess it would be minimal ; hey, thanks for listening .
it's isolated from the big block of steel by rubber . with all the engine bay heat removing efforts going on ; i'll assume successfully, the straps may some day be a way to transfer heat to the engine. if the engine is cooler than the ic , wouldn't the heat go from ic to engine? or would the transfer be miniscule? yeah i guess it would be minimal ; hey, thanks for listening .
okay here's one for ya . so far all the scoops have been plastic or a composite of some kind. both good insulators . but not good heat transferers. so mount the scoop (made of aluminum ,anodized black ) permanantly to the ic . surround this with a tray for water ,and rubber seal . have hole in hood for shaker style . now you've got good heat transfer plus awsome intake .
My little dose of LITHIUM
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 2
From: Albuquerque New Mexico
Actually, I like the idea. I think others have suggested shaker style scoops before, so why not again? The challenge would be to make the hole in the bonnet look good, which it certainly doesn't once you remove the plastic/glass scoop.
On the preceding post, I doubt the engine would ever be cooler than the IC.
On the preceding post, I doubt the engine would ever be cooler than the IC.
Actually, I like the idea. I think others have suggested shaker style scoops before, so why not again? The challenge would be to make the hole in the bonnet look good, which it certainly doesn't once you remove the plastic/glass scoop.
On the preceding post, I doubt the engine would ever be cooler than the IC.
On the preceding post, I doubt the engine would ever be cooler than the IC.
Last edited by herbie hind; Jul 15, 2007 at 12:28 PM. Reason: addition
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
The shaker is a very good idea. A scoop with a direct conection to the IC would be very efficent.
The dummy part would not go to waste. It could be used for a CAI. The only problem is, who wants to cut their hood? And, if there was a kit, would anyone want 1?
The dummy part would not go to waste. It could be used for a CAI. The only problem is, who wants to cut their hood? And, if there was a kit, would anyone want 1?
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
I wouldn't hesitate to cut the hood if the "kit" was right
5th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Just curious, how do you pack that dry ice on top of the IC without it slipping, moving and or would it not block the incoming air to go through the top cores?
Is it a RED & yellow poke a dot, or, a red & YELLOW poke a dot.....???
All the after market ICs fot the Mini have some merit, some more than others. As Randy says "you get what you pay for" , however, this depends on engine mods & driving style. In the end the consumer is the final judge.
As far as W2A, for most of us that drive on the street, 99% of the time W2A is the best solution.
Weight? If you weigh 220, my 170 wins.
F1 cars, if they had an IC, would not consider a W2A, for, #1 weight or efficency. Their traffic is faster than most can even imagine, not to mention the air flow.
This subject has been worked to death. Many NAMers have documented hours of loged information on different aftermarket ICs. The OE IC is always the best solution for the everyday driver that only wants a bit more out of the car. The W2A loses here for cost only.
Bottom line, there are better ways to make power over the long haul than a big expensive aftermarket IC on a slightly moded Mini. With an Alta diverter on a stock IC & some dry ice packed on that IC = 10 - 20 ( wrap dependant ) minutes of big power. Cost? Nothing, with the OE diverter ( you can get more ice withe the Alta - ice cubes also fit much better ) if you know a hot rodder at the local Stop & Shop.
All the after market ICs fot the Mini have some merit, some more than others. As Randy says "you get what you pay for" , however, this depends on engine mods & driving style. In the end the consumer is the final judge.
As far as W2A, for most of us that drive on the street, 99% of the time W2A is the best solution.
Weight? If you weigh 220, my 170 wins.
F1 cars, if they had an IC, would not consider a W2A, for, #1 weight or efficency. Their traffic is faster than most can even imagine, not to mention the air flow.
This subject has been worked to death. Many NAMers have documented hours of loged information on different aftermarket ICs. The OE IC is always the best solution for the everyday driver that only wants a bit more out of the car. The W2A loses here for cost only.
Bottom line, there are better ways to make power over the long haul than a big expensive aftermarket IC on a slightly moded Mini. With an Alta diverter on a stock IC & some dry ice packed on that IC = 10 - 20 ( wrap dependant ) minutes of big power. Cost? Nothing, with the OE diverter ( you can get more ice withe the Alta - ice cubes also fit much better ) if you know a hot rodder at the local Stop & Shop.
No.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
The stock opening would definitely not go to waste, and I already cut my hood. I may be cutting it even more soon.
It's easy. It comes in plate shapes, about 1"thick. It gets wraped with plastic wrap 1st, then aluminum foil with old T shirt, pre cut bailing twine. For best results, be as quick as you can, have a well planed warp & be careful handling the ice. I don't care about the incomming air, when it's humid you can watch the moisture freeze on the IC.
You can pack quite a bit inside the RADbox.
If I were to go back to the stock IC, I would run a STi style scoop for the IC. It would be much more efficient than the STi one though, I would fab channels inside the scoop to direct the air through the entire core, not just air slapping against the back of the scoop then finding it's way through the core.
The stock opening would definitely not go to waste, and I already cut my hood. I may be cutting it even more soon.
The stock opening would definitely not go to waste, and I already cut my hood. I may be cutting it even more soon.
once someone does this everyone will return to the stocker anyway .
Last edited by herbie hind; Jul 15, 2007 at 04:17 PM. Reason: addition.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
no it will not draing the battery. As long as you wire it correctly (i.e. follow the instructions) the small water pump will only run for 5 minutes. It will not draw nearly enough power to kill your battery. Keep in mind that your car will play its radio with the key off for 16 minutes... and you can do that every single day after driving it and it will not kill your battery.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
Because they were the first to post here on NAM (a prototype), Alta was apparently the first, according to some . I had photos from M7 before that, but such a discussion is asinine, I feel... M7 was first to market, and that aspect, is not debatable.
The reasons I have not considered a water system:
- Pricing at tpyically 2x, or more
- Not a 20-30 min install, and might require professional installation (mo $)
- Certainly more weight on an already nose-heavy car...
- Another heat exchanger in front of the radiator
I've got money to spend on my MINI, and I would be willing to entertain disregarding the above mentioned concerns if there was very compelling evidence that a water system delivered hands-down noteworthy gains over air. It seems that at best it is better in only certain situations. If water is lost, or vaporizes (yes, that seems to happen), the IC quickly becomes wickely hot. Given the above associated "costs," I'll pass... as the tradeoffs don't make it wortwhile, for me at least.
Factor in that if anything non-CARB goes on my MINI, I want it to be easily removable, or at least highly stealth. This does not qualify there as well. Just one's cost/benefit analysis...
. I had photos from M7 before that, but such a discussion is asinine, I feel... M7 was first to market, and that aspect, is not debatable.The reasons I have not considered a water system:
- Pricing at tpyically 2x, or more
- Not a 20-30 min install, and might require professional installation (mo $)
- Certainly more weight on an already nose-heavy car...
- Another heat exchanger in front of the radiator
I've got money to spend on my MINI, and I would be willing to entertain disregarding the above mentioned concerns if there was very compelling evidence that a water system delivered hands-down noteworthy gains over air. It seems that at best it is better in only certain situations. If water is lost, or vaporizes (yes, that seems to happen), the IC quickly becomes wickely hot. Given the above associated "costs," I'll pass... as the tradeoffs don't make it wortwhile, for me at least.
Factor in that if anything non-CARB goes on my MINI, I want it to be easily removable, or at least highly stealth. This does not qualify there as well. Just one's cost/benefit analysis...
1. 2x as much... I thought the madness intercooler was about 400 bucks more than the M7 DFIC but i could be wrong since i would never consider that IC to begin with and i heard it was costing upwards of about 900 with a joke of a water sprayer.
2. The instal will take you maybe 2hrs at the most. The Mini Madness is really quite easy, a cave man could probably do it. The lines and mounts are really easy to run and the wiring is fool proof. The wiring will take about 45-90 seconds at the most. mounting the exchanger takes a mater of seconds. the biggest job is taking off the bumper... which taking on and off will take 30-40 minutes... if its your first time. really the instal sounds scarier than it actually is... anyone who pays more than 100-200 bucks to have this installed is getting ripped.
3. More weight on a nose heavy car? take off the under hood insulation... that will probably make up the differnce...
Seriously the weight is minmal for the power and consistant power you get. Especially off the line. Also, i hope you don't have xenon lights because geez... that is just so much more weight over the front wheels than the halogens... also, i would remove the front plate... that is unessecary weight at the polar extreme. 4. I live in Phoenix AZ, there is pretty much no other place in the country (thats well populated) that is hotter than here. The car doesn't over heat and the AC performs just as well as it did before.
Bottom line.. speculation is just speculation and sometimes excuses...What I posted is facts... take them and use them. Put your mind at ease with facts.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
I will address some of your points with my personal experiance with the Madness water to air intercooler.
1. 2x as much... I thought the madness intercooler was about 400 bucks more than the M7 DFIC but i could be wrong since i would never consider that IC to begin with and i heard it was costing upwards of about 900 with a joke of a water sprayer.
When I mentioned the 2x price delta, I didn't call-out any particular products. Traditional top mounts have, and continue to be sold for about 700 bucks, or less. Water units, at least the ones I've seen, including the Madness one you referenced, goes for over twice that ($1,550). There appears also to be a core charge, which adds another 200 for those who don't want to lose their stocker; effectively making the price $1,750. Again, not to bring up a vendor's products, but since the DFIC was menioned, at 900 bucks, it is also about half. Nothing inaccurate with my original assertion, especially if taken in general terms, as I had done...
2. The instal will take you maybe 2hrs at the most. The Mini Madness is really quite easy, a cave man could probably do it. The lines and mounts are really easy to run and the wiring is fool proof. The wiring will take about 45-90 seconds at the most. mounting the exchanger takes a mater of seconds. the biggest job is taking off the bumper... which taking on and off will take 30-40 minutes... if its your first time. really the instal sounds scarier than it actually is... anyone who pays more than 100-200 bucks to have this installed is getting ripped.
As I said, not the typical 20 min IC intall. And while I feel certain that I could do it, there is without a doubt a clear understanding as to which install is more of a DIY for the masses...
3. More weight on a nose heavy car? take off the under hood insulation... that will probably make up the differnce... Seriously the weight is minmal for the power and consistant power you get. Especially off the line. Also, i hope you don't have xenon lights because geez... that is just so much more weight over the front wheels than the halogens... also, i would remove the front plate... that is unessecary weight at the polar extreme.
The hood insulation is removed, as well as the entirety of the Xenon washer system, which as explained to me, accounts for the weight delta with the standard lights. Having ditched the washer system, and its crappy over-spray, with the 9 pound loss, I believe it (that is what makes the Xenons much heavier). Weight is being added with a water-to-air system, and that is not disputable. I would surmise at least 5-10 pounds over stock, and that might be on the low side for units with larger, more desirable reservoirs.
4. I live in Phoenix AZ, there is pretty much no other place in the country (thats well populated) that is hotter than here. The car doesn't over heat and the AC performs just as well as it did before.
AZ is hot, I agree.
Bottom line.. speculation is just speculation and sometimes excuses...What I posted is facts... take them and use them. Put your mind at ease with facts.
What you said might be factual in of itself, but your commentary in no way refutes my commentary; as you seemingly attempt to do by referencing my post. A water-to-air system will have its benefits, but given the many considerations that come into play, such a unit will not be for everyone, and will not prove to be worthy in all situations. The same is true for air...
1. 2x as much... I thought the madness intercooler was about 400 bucks more than the M7 DFIC but i could be wrong since i would never consider that IC to begin with and i heard it was costing upwards of about 900 with a joke of a water sprayer.
When I mentioned the 2x price delta, I didn't call-out any particular products. Traditional top mounts have, and continue to be sold for about 700 bucks, or less. Water units, at least the ones I've seen, including the Madness one you referenced, goes for over twice that ($1,550). There appears also to be a core charge, which adds another 200 for those who don't want to lose their stocker; effectively making the price $1,750. Again, not to bring up a vendor's products, but since the DFIC was menioned, at 900 bucks, it is also about half. Nothing inaccurate with my original assertion, especially if taken in general terms, as I had done...
2. The instal will take you maybe 2hrs at the most. The Mini Madness is really quite easy, a cave man could probably do it. The lines and mounts are really easy to run and the wiring is fool proof. The wiring will take about 45-90 seconds at the most. mounting the exchanger takes a mater of seconds. the biggest job is taking off the bumper... which taking on and off will take 30-40 minutes... if its your first time. really the instal sounds scarier than it actually is... anyone who pays more than 100-200 bucks to have this installed is getting ripped.
As I said, not the typical 20 min IC intall. And while I feel certain that I could do it, there is without a doubt a clear understanding as to which install is more of a DIY for the masses...
3. More weight on a nose heavy car? take off the under hood insulation... that will probably make up the differnce...
Seriously the weight is minmal for the power and consistant power you get. Especially off the line. Also, i hope you don't have xenon lights because geez... that is just so much more weight over the front wheels than the halogens... also, i would remove the front plate... that is unessecary weight at the polar extreme.The hood insulation is removed, as well as the entirety of the Xenon washer system, which as explained to me, accounts for the weight delta with the standard lights. Having ditched the washer system, and its crappy over-spray, with the 9 pound loss, I believe it (that is what makes the Xenons much heavier). Weight is being added with a water-to-air system, and that is not disputable. I would surmise at least 5-10 pounds over stock, and that might be on the low side for units with larger, more desirable reservoirs.
4. I live in Phoenix AZ, there is pretty much no other place in the country (thats well populated) that is hotter than here. The car doesn't over heat and the AC performs just as well as it did before.
AZ is hot, I agree.
Bottom line.. speculation is just speculation and sometimes excuses...What I posted is facts... take them and use them. Put your mind at ease with facts.
What you said might be factual in of itself, but your commentary in no way refutes my commentary; as you seemingly attempt to do by referencing my post. A water-to-air system will have its benefits, but given the many considerations that come into play, such a unit will not be for everyone, and will not prove to be worthy in all situations. The same is true for air...
Last edited by TonyB; Jul 15, 2007 at 07:13 PM.
