I'm not calling you out and saying your goal is to prove that "Yours is better" i'm just saying, if you want a fair comparision you're comparing apples to oranges.

You can't take a car with a completely different blower pushing 22 lbs of boost and compare it to a stock car with a pulley and an exhaust. I don't have a boost gauge, but i'd be surprised if I was pushing more than 14-15 lbs of boost. One of the El D cars with 22 lbs of boost would be pulling more than 225 whp on the dyno easy .

With just the head everyone has consistantly pulled 230 whp+ on the dyno. Gnaster on a completely different dyno in TX saw 230 whp, Longboard saw 233 on the Autowave Dyno I used for my baseline. Monday (hopefully) i'll be getting my dyno on the same Autowave Dyno.

No hard feelings towards you Spider, I'm mearly saying, you can't compare the two. If you want a fair comparision between the M62 blower and the El D head, dial your boost down to 15-16.

 

How is it a fair comparision though... it'd be like comparing a twin charge car with a JCW head to a 15% car with the El D head? What are you comparing... you're pushing 45% more boost through the M62 than we are on the M45 . When you have all these variables involved you can't just throw the car on a dyno and say ok, my car makes x his car makes y, this is the delta. I'd be willing to bet the M62 at 15 lbs of boost is a lot more efficent than the M45 at 15 lbs of boost anyway .

 

i think it's more comparing #'s rather than cars. sometimes it's odd seeing high #'s coming from other parts of the country on different dyno's. it's normal to doubt what you don't see in front of you. having the cars dyno at the same point will take out dyno variances...so if the numbers are still high and relative what others are seeing, it's shows for sure.


on a side note, when you headin to Autowave Rusty? i don't work until 2 or so on monday (tomorrow), and would love to stop by. i'm looking at getting some drivetrain mods from el before going power. need a clutch/fly/lsd upgrade to go with the brakes going on for some upcoming track days......THEN i'll be looking for adding the power.

 

Yea, I know, I just don't get the whole lets dyno our cars in 15 different places thing. Comparing two different dyno types is always silly, because they vary so greatly. Thats why I'm getting all the dyno's done at the same place (Despite the fact that it's almost 2 hours away in traffic ).

In the other my thread about SoCaL Dynos I posted a link to some folks on the Subaru forums who saw a 20+% difference between a Dyno Dynamics dyno and a DynoJet dyno . That's the 192 whp I got on my baseline vs 230 whp. Big difference!

If Autowave happens on Monday, it'll be in the afternoon, morning i'll have some other things to do unfortunatly.

If you want, PM me your cell number and i'll text you with a time if it ends up happening on Monday.

PS. Talk to El D before you do anything to your car, he's been there already, and he's not afraid to tell you it's a waste of money to buy something you don't need

 

There are lots of ways to skin cats, and you sure can compare the results if you use a curved or straight blade!

The goal of dynoing a bunch of cars on the same dyno is to measure total system performance. This is very good data, and lots would be learned. Seems to me a different head without tuno optimization is a fine thing to measure agains an M62 install that still could benefit from some tweaking....

I just watched the American LeMonse at Longbeach. In the same class, you had cars with Diesels, gas and 10% ethanol fuel. These are different, but the lap times give you a fair comparison of system performance.

While anything like this tends to be the equivalent of "mine's bigger than yours" if you look past that, there will be lots of good info to be found.


Matt

 

Sounds like a good plan, and educational for all of us.

Same dyno
Same location
Same day
Same starting point, IAT (cool-down)
Same operator, with strict adherence to methodology

This would yield some nice data!

 

Should be RWYB and hope you brung enough.

Imagine the scene;

Pull up at a set of lights two Mini's

"You want to go for it"
"Yeah sure"
"Hold on a minute pop your hood"
"Why"
"thats sounds like a M62 running 21lb of boost"
"And you have a problem with that"
"I might have, do you mind if I get my corner scales out and weigh you as well"
"Dude I dont know if you've noticed but the lights have turned green, bye bye"

You guys do make me laugh out very loud at times

 

I didn't think you were..... i am responding while in and out of the house on multiple errands befor going out of town tomorrow.....

I totally agree with you...... they are apples and oranges and what I am saying is I want to look at the head (apples) to mix with my 62 (orange) to makesomething evn better......not mine is better than yours......or some kind of pissing contest..... they way I look at it the 62 begs for a head..... i have heard good things about this head..... I am considering for my car and wanted to see if a dyno at the Dragon would be possible..... In a completely unrelated event.... putting the 62 on a dyno would be fine for people who would like the same info on the 62...... i am trying to be as transparent as I can be to increase the knowledge base....

 

I agree.......if M62 and el D M45 guys want to tie down and pull some runs let them! More #'s are sure to make a pleasing debate!

Jeremy

 

I certainly don't care. I'm already anxiously awaiting my dyno results. If I was going to the Dragon I'd offer up my car to go on the dyno, so long as the runs were both controlled and done by the same operator, and they didn't throw some wacky correction values on one or the other to skew the results in their favor.

I was just pointing out, it sounded like people wanted a comparision of "Which is the better way to go". They're two completely different mods, and comparing the two on a dyno will show nothing other than Spiders car with every mod ever made makes X and Longboard's car with a head, intake, exhaust makes Y.

I wish I was going, trust me! Just too far to drive right now, and I have quite a bit to get done over the coming weeks.

 

Really all manufacturers should put up contingency money for winner of the dyno but also it shouldn't be about the max bhp it should be what you record at 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 then average out and he who has made the most horsepower across the rev range wins.

Same thing ast they have in Popular Hot Rodding for pump gas V8 dyno shootouts, its amazing what tricks those guys come up with.

 

I don't understand what the big competition is about ? If the El D cars are pulling 232 with no tuning and the stock blower what do you think they'll be pulling at the same stage of modification that Spider's car is at?

SpiderX has already posted numbers on his car in the current state of tune, as has Longboard... what's the big mystery? They were within 5 HP of each other. I look forward to seeing numbers on the same dyno from both cars. Maybe that will put this whole debate to rest. Somehow I doubt it though .

 

This is only my opinion, but when I research any engine I would always look at who is running what combo at the strip and who is setting what records.

Unfortunatley a lot of the Mini community dont drag race, but they do love putting there cars on dynos, personally IMO it doesn't re create the real world environment but it does give us something to argue about or disagree with.

So as an example when I wanted to have a new cam ground for my mates 496BBC I went to one of the top Street racers in the USA, they had just set the fastest mph in a pump gas class in Hot Rod magazine.

We went on the engine dyno with 620 and the dyno operator guessed that this cam would make around the 620 mark we ended up with 690 which he couldn't believe because this was a nitrous cam with 9.6-1 compression.

So has the Jesus head got loads of drag racing tricks in it?? probably Has DMH head got loads of circuit racing tricks in it?? probably

Whose best?? Same dyno same day , let battle commence

But what one must remember that we all have an obsession about this wicked little car and we should enjoy what other people have created or about to create.

But best of all competivness like this spur us on to produce more horsepower and then we all benefit

 

It sounds like people are starting to discerningly sift through dyno numbers and want actual comparison/info. Sounds like pressure to me. All of these amazing (absolutely amazing given true #s) mods are either going to sink or swim. People will either make money or lose it. Egos will be further inflated or popped. Internet heroes will be solidified or demonized. haha sorry that was all quite dramatic.

Point is people want to see this! Who cares what boost you're running? If this head is a jesus head, and these numbers are valid, it'll repeat it anywhere, anytime, and show much more value returned than an m62 or anything else that goes against this. I can't think of one reason why someone wouldn't want to prove it. It's interesting that the first vocal reaction to this request was a defensive one.

This is fun to watch play out - I'm glad spiderx is involved because he is a trusted member of this board. Spiderx - is M7 amenable to this given the fact that the product is still in development and not finalized?

mb

 

Since I have the Jesus Head and will be at the Dragon I guess this is directed at me. So, I'm game.

A few questions.

1. Has John at Lucky Dog even been approached with this idea?

2. Who's paying for the dyno time?

I think SpiderX has the right mindset in all this, we will be comparing apples to grapes. So what does this exercise prove?

I would like to drive the M62 equipped Mini to see how if feels compared to my own. I think swapping cars for a while would be good idea.

Paul...I'm no drag type driver, I don't know how to drive straight, I can't launch and frankly, while I respect that side of motor sports, it's not for me.

Only thing I ask is that the all the things we can graph such as boost, A/F and the like be graphed so others looking at the sheets out of the context of this discussion can obtain a realistic picture.

 

I'm paying for mine and doing it for a couple of reasons. Compare local dyno w /his before LDG tune, after on his and then when I get home, same after on local dyno. After discovering that my UselessChip added almost a whopping 2whp (= $500/hp) Whats another 350? LOL

I'm looking at doing the head/header in a few months and saw this as a great 1 on 1 comparison for my budget justifications!

Tim

 

Assuming there is a dyno at the Dragon - the day should be this is what my car produced and these are my mods. Anything else would be silly BUt then this NAM !

 

nevermind.

 

I guess I need to restate this question...

Who is paying for the dyno time for SpiderX and myself? I don't need this dyno run, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. I'm just the person that happens to have the head in question that will be at The Dragon, so I am dragged into this. I basicaly have no choice but to say I will do it.

If I say no and this being the loving kind gracious community that NAM is I'll be slammed for no reason but that I didn't want to do something that will show nothing anyway.

There is no upside for either SpiderX or myself on this dyno thing in this community. We both admit that we have unfinished projects. How does one compare two incomplete projects such as this? Frankly I don't care how this ends.

 

I must say I am really enjoying the Sunday banter. My wife and I wish we were going to the dragon for many reasons including the dyno-shoot-out-at-the-OK-corral

Raise the bar as high as possible.
M45 v M62 v Jesus v Mosses v Allah etc.
Report back here who's got the Fattest mill in the Valley.

IT'S ALL MOOT ANYWAY WHEN I FINISH MY 300+WHP S/C 2.0L


Oops! Did I say that out loud???

 

Hehehe..thats stage 2 for me....I know my build has started, now how long till it's ready....only el knows.

 

What are you talking about that's impossible!!! You can't build a stroker motor out of the tritec . *Sarcasm sarcasm*. Then again I seem to remember 200 whp is impossible on the stock blower, etc .

PS. Is that what Steve is calling his head these days? The Allah head? .

 

It's not so much not wanting to run for comparisions, it's about what does it prove. Dyno's are more accurately used to show a delta. Who knows what either car will run on the LDG dyno. It could very well pull 260, does that mean anything? No?

Would I drive across the country at an expense of 500-600 dollars then pay another 400-500 dollars to stay up there, and shell out $100+ to dyno my car for no reason? No... What's the point. I have nothing to prove .

 

Psh, child's play. In a year I wanna see 400+ HP without a turbo .

 

I have seen the mighty 2.0L. I can't wait to see it on a street car. I do know there is another getting done. I should know. I shipped the thing.

Longboard