What about using the car thermo for ambient, and a ScanGaugeII for IATs? Makes it easy to manually calculate and manually log approach temps under various conditions.... not as high tech as using a data logger... but would be useful numbers...

EDIT: Never mind... Peter and I simulposted.

 

Hmmmmm

Post #160 was in response to Peter's outrageuos claim ...But the bottom line is, the DFIC outperforms most units out there as Clint pointed out.

Post #162 was a respnse to your claim that I had a very productive response.

Post #209 was a thumbs up (agreed with the quoted post).

Post #210 was agreeing with the statemnt that the IC was a bling for the underhood.

Just thought I would clear that up for you as you seem to have a problem understanding my posts

Hope that helps!

 

Alright scottinbend alright...

I had a great witty retort for you but I then decided to save the people reading this thread the anguish.

Whatever man, if you feel your giving good information to the community the more power to you. I for one disagree...


On a more interesting note, I spoke with Peter from M7 on the phone this afternoon. He is going to send me the tools and gauges I will need to run some tests on a few intercoolers. There are some different ones in my local club besides the DFICV2, GRS and Stock that I will try to get ahold of. I will also plot out a route that I feel will be a good testing ground and let you guys google it or something. I haven't figured out the particulars yet but I will keep you guys posted as to the things I'm doing.

I am also going to shoot for doing this testing next Sun the 22nd. If I cannot get it done then it will have to be the first or second weekend in july.

I will post more on this later, its my sons Bday party tonight

 

Wow, I'd like to see those TC's. Sounds like you guys have it under control. I can't wait to see the results.

 

By the way, since this sounds like a part throttle test, any chance of getting IDC into that 10 channel logger to evaluate load with temps?

 

At this point in the game I will leave any technical questions up to Peter to answer. I need to familiarize myself with the equipment and terminology a little better ..ok, for real its bday party time!

 

It's really great to see things starting to come together and i personally think that a test on real streets and roads is going to give us the best idea of how these IC's perform on real streets and roads .

i also think it's really cool for peter to be so pro-active in seeing this test take place, i think it says a lot about m7 and they have definetely regained my respect (like that means anything) regardless of what the numbers say at the end of the day.

it'd be great if alta got in on this also

 

Is that open invitation for all Utah MINI's? I'd love to come down if Jan is putting on heads! Count me in for a head and cam. Seriously!


If it is any better you are free to use my 17inch OZ Ultraleggeras.....and you are free to use my dirtbike helmet.

 

My man.....
I think forcing Intense to go beyond a simple 3 ch install with 3-4 IC's
is not fair. I am supplying him with all the hardware, software and necessary probes to do a fair but simple test that will hopefully satisfy
most NAM readers. And to say that this will be a part throttle test is
most likely wrong, and I really don't understand how you came to that conclusion (I might be wrong so let's ask Intense)..

Peter
M7 Tuning
562-608-8123

 

Yes Peter, forcing him to do a test that would give real scientific data is too much. I am sure Intense is a great guy, I mean him no harm, but he is simply not equipped to perform a proper test.

You are correct, you probably will satisfy most NAM readers with this information, not data. That does not mean it is really worth anything scientifically or proves your claims.

How would I conclude that this will be a part throttle test? Well, he will be driving on public streets, he'll even give us the google map. Everyone here wants data pertaining to real street driving since that is what you are reporting your unit is good for. Street driving is part throttle. Now are you saying that is incorrect?
Is Intense to do full throttle blasts through the streets of his local town? Surely you would not condone this behavior, especially of someone that is completely unaffiliated from M7. It's not like you are asking Randy to go out and endanger the public, ask someone in another state to do it in the name of M7 PR?
Of course not, so it must be a part throttle test.

My only gripe here is claiming that this data in the end proves anything. You can perform the test, put the results on NAM, but you can't say that it proves your intercooler is a better hunk of aluminum than the stock one. Just looks different and cost you $899 more until proper tests are done. Your claims could be right. It could be better. I can't say any more than you what's better. But only a proper test can prove it. This is not one "My Man".

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahamabart

Doc Obnoxious has serious testing results on several IC units. I can't find the thread but perhaps someone else knows what I'm talking about and has a link.

He sure does. He did them for us and his data on all of our cores, along with our backed up data is what we used to take our V2 IC and make it even better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClintTheMiniOwner

It bothers me when someone says intercoolers add horsepower (although they can) Intercoolers increase efficiency, change where the power is through the powerband and help you achieve it more efficiently. However you do this is your choice. It allows you to better use the power that your engine has potential for. With pressure drops in bigger IC's you sacrifice driveability and usually increase Hp in the top end because of the surface area. (Everyone already knows this I know) With a smaller intercooler on the mini you get a more lively car, that's why I like the GP and DFIC design. Since the DFIC design is small and efficient, it's a good best of both worlds. That article Bahama Bart refers to explains this in detail.

This is not correct. Intercoolers make more HP. If they cool better, and the engine is less knock prone, its going to make more power. IF the IC is less restrictive and has less pressure drop it can make HP. This all plays into the IC’s efficiency, which effects HP.

Bigger IC’s do not sacrifice drivabilty. This is SUCH A HUGE MYTH!!! We are talking about replacing an already small core with one that is bigger, but still tiny. This statement is just not correct. Now if we put on a core that was 10 times the size, the ONLY thing that is going to get worse is the initial response. But once the larger volume is filled (milliseconds), it WILL make more power, cool better and have less pressure drop. BIGGER doesn’t effect pressure drop. In fact a smaller core has a much bigger potential for higher pressure drop because its more restrictive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniMacPR

M7: They were fantastic!

This snide remark also makes me mad. Peter has one way he sells things and it works.
We have a different way we sell things and it also works. One thing we never do is post results that throw variables like an ECU tune into the mix. I am offended you think this is how we work.

Bingo! There are lots of customers and lots of different people wanting different things from their car or parts they buy for their cars.

I agree, but disagree. I agree that the tests are going to be hard to prove things. Too many variables. But you forgot to mention DYNO as a tester……………

You say they do not add much power, over stock, we see 8-12WHP on cars, so does that mean a panel filter, or intake system is a waste and shouldn’t be done?? It does make power, it just comes down to if a customer is willing to buy it for that much power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silversmoke06

Why dident this thread stop a while ago?

That’s just it, people don’t see all sides. What if a customer has all those things then this, then an IC could be his next step.

Then its your logic I just don’t understand. You say something is a huge waste, but then say, you have no proof, but because you read it on the forums, it must be true. And there is no data showing them work, but what is so funny is that there is data out there, you just don’t want to see it.

Then you mention how that money would be better spent on a head (last time i checked $2000-3000, plus lots of labor) and a $2000 header…. But logic also tells you a shrick cam, which is totally NOT a proven part here on NAM, is also better money spent. Cams as far I have see proof of, are 1000 times worse at proving themselves compared to intercoolers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by british RACING green

i think the reason this thread has continued is simply because neither m7 or alta has stepped up to the plate and were completely up front about the performance gains or lack there of regarding their IC's.

We are here, we have just been very busy. Which is funny cause it looks like most of the guys posting either don’t have a job or spend their work time, not working…….. Again we have been very upfront with our IC and testing. When we made both cores, we tested, the Dr. Tested, Computer computations were done, more testing and proving was done after all that. There is tons of this data we have put up for those to see. And had my old PC not crashed I would have given anyone who asked my logs using our Innovate logging stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMINNI

Well he is from Oregon, guess I should give him a break .

yup we all smoke pot and hug trees here. Oh and I do have a piece sign on my car……………….

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyboy2160

why not test on a dyno with a good ic fan?

Finally someone says something that makes sense!!!

Our classic IC we say makes 7-8WHP, its not like we claim you will need to buy new tires when you install our intercooler because of the MONSTER TQ! Our V2 is only a couple more HP making it about 10, and this is close to redline. Again with our dyno graph showing the HP we found on a pulley/header/catback car, its pretty good proof!

We have all the temps and pressure differences ready to post, but I am at home writing this respsonse, so its just going to have to wait until tomorrow, unless you guys want to go do a search.

Its funny how if a vendor posts data that backs up claims, or HP or whatever, that there is this certain crowd that shoots them down. But then a normal, non-biased guys comes on and says I put on these spark plugs and got a huge power gain, everyone believes them.

Someone a few pages back makes a crack about the "ALTA DFIC". I want to be 100% clear on this. We showed off our part first, we showed we had been working on it internally for a very long time before M7 released theirs. With that said when Peter came out with his IC, we thought many things (yes, some not so nice) but in the end it just came down to both people making a very similar part at the same time. So no one really copied anything and it shows, by how both are similar but different.

With that out of the way, we have pretty good data backing up how ours works better than the stock part, and different than our older part. With data we got from our Innovate logging hardware, Customers (The DR.), and our IC manufacture, we came up with what you see. We sell alot of this part, and we have lots of people very happy with it.

On a side note, going to AMVIV is something not everyone gets to do, but with the known QTY of ALTA V2's we sell, there was sure alot more DFIC's there, than ours (at AMVIV) . Goes to show that while it may seem that EVERYONE on NAM doesn’t like the DFIC and douts it works, there are alot of people out there they don't read the forums and can make an educated purchase about buying an Intercooler.

WHat is also funny about AMVIV and other public events we go to, is why these guys don't come up to us and have a discussion about things. We are there for everyone! I would love to talk to some of these guys, but for the last 4 year and many events, I have yet to talk to them. Or at least knowingly talk to them. I think they might change their thoughts about us if they would at least have a normal conversation with us.

In the end, what we do for a living is very different than what 99% of NAM members do for a living. So we understand it may be hard for some to understand what we do, and why we do it. In the end its a business that is here to make money and stay in business for a long time and have fun doing it. You can't lie to people, or make things that don't do anything and expect to stay in business forever. We do not have the time to sit around stirring up the forum world. But there is some good things that can come from this.

These guys "Stirring the pot" actually can help. It gives us a great way to prove or explain a part with many eyes watching. Personally, its fun when we are able to show proof of something and get these naysayers turned around (still working on PGT…we might be here a while….) While many onlookers might be thinking this is damaging to us, its really not. No matter what, the "Stir'ers" help weed out those who dont have anything good to say/offer/sell/whatever.

Classic comment by a non car guy.” The stock parts works good enough.” If this was the case then we would all be driving Mini standards and talking about how great the mileage is and how quite it is..............

Onlookers also think this is all just fun and games to everyone, but its a business first, and a hobby second. EVERYTHING people say about us or to us we take personal (or at least i do) and while this may sound sad, this is what fuels our fire into making better parts, or provide better data about things, or better instructions, or whatever. Because of this, it also can be damaging when you are able to back up claims and prove to people that something works, then you get bashed by guys with IB (Internet *****, yes we made that up).

The IC is definitely not the first mod, its really not the second or 3rd, or 4th for that matter. We understand that its not the best first mod. Just like when guys call us and want to buy our Twurbo kit, we tell them that is not the best first mod. Start with the pulley, or intake, then exhaust, header, plugs, suspension stuff, brakes, then your crank pulley, or IC is your next semi logical part.

To us we have a huge advantage over the big guys like certain companies that start with D. For them they aren't here talking to you guys, we are! We are here making parts you want, and ones they will never make because there isn’t enough market… That is a lame excuse! We make them because they are cool/work well/make power, or any other number of reasons that don’t follow the industry formula for making parts. No one here criticizes them for not proving their parts??? On the forum, we have a captive audience where we can show people how something works, instead of hoping they get to our site. If we just came up with a part, put it on our site with a dyno graph, its not going to sell. NAM and the very vocal community is what helps launch our parts. We get instant feedback, weather its good or bad, and we can make instant adjustment to better satisfy them. We will be putting this to the test very shortly with one part that will blow your mind…….

What this thread really comes down to is the test which will prove which IC works best. Of course we would give an intercooler for the cause. (or 2 for the classic) We have our solid data on how our core works, we have some dyno results, we know what it will do. The problem is people are looking for big power, and the IC is only going to do so much. You guys here HAVE to remember you have a SC! At a given RPM its only going to flow X amount of air, and its aways Y efficient. While leaning things out, adding timing make power, they don't make THAT much more power. That is why lots of guys make 200WHP and thats it (don’t say, “well I got 210WHP” its an example). To get more you need more boost, which is more air flow (if you spin the SC more), or more engine RPM, which again is...........more airflow.

With this test you want to do, the track is not going to show much. As others have said, there are way to many variables, tire heat up, exiting corners differently, better lines as more laps are done….. The dyno is the BEST way to provide consistent results. Its not going to flow the same air as it does on the street, but it will be consistent and it will show HP. Because we are talking about a minimal gain in HP (10 or so) the numbers of a QM or lap time are not going to show anything significant. But on the dyno, it will. We see very good consistent results. This is our suggestion.

Alright, data will show up tomorrow, you all will make of it what you want, and all we can do is hope people trust us. Its 10pm, and I have 4 other write-ups to do….. While we havne’t had to many new and fresh write ups in the Mini world (waiting for a couple very special things to be finished), take a look here, and see some other things we have been up to in other places…….

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pages/show/92

And some of the Mini things we have done
http://www.altaminiperformance.com/blogs/index/3

 

Jeff, I appreciate you coming on and I'm sure everyone looks forward to seeing your data. I am not out for a witch hunt here, I merely asked for some data to back up M7's claims, and it has ballooned into this. As I said before, I have some of everyones parts on my car, and am not ashamed of it. I am merely asking questions to better understand the testing procedures and how they led to the results so I can make the best decision on what I may put on my car.

 

I have an extra set of horns.... we can drill them and install them and then Rob can go back to stock.... what's the point of using shoddy equipment if we are going to go through the process to find out?

 

If it hasn't be said already driving and logging on the street is one thing driving it like you stole it at the drags / road course is something I would like to see any data for.

If it survives road course / drags its good to go.

 

ding ding ding...... winnah from BFM2

 

I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same....

Matt

 

Paul and Jan - you guys know a ZILLION times more about this stuff than I do... And I respect your opinions highly... so please help me understand this.

I "get" that the track is the ultimate high speed / max performance testing ground for car configs built for that purpose... but the best track car will have some problems hauling the family of 5 plus the dog to the beach for the weekend... likewise, it seems that there's enough differences between track driving and performance street driving (lower speeds for typically longer periods, stop and go that produces heat soak, high revs at low speeds with less airflow, etc) that it's possible to have mods that produce max results in track conditions but might provide a less appropriate mix of performance and driveability for the street...

I spend 99% of my time on the street... and want to optimize my car for performance (not family and dog hauling ) in those conditions... lots of places where one can drive within spittin' distance of the legal limits, but still be pushing the car near the limit (not *at* the limit, that's stupid on public roads). Lots of 55mph speed limit extreme twisties here in NC, for example.

While I agree that track testing is the only useful test for those seeking track performance, just seems to me that either street testing, or simulated street driving at the track would be more relevant to me and drivers like me (who probably outnumber MINI track enthusiasts...)

Thoughts? Is my logic flawed? If so, teach me, masters...

 

+1

 

So what I get out of this post is " whatever happens here STILL won't satisfy me" Am I wrong? Some people will not belive anything unless they see it with their own eyes. Tough way to live .

 

is the fact that extreme conditions really illustrate the differences. If you're not in a stressed environment, then there is really little or no benefit to be found. Here's an example. You do testing at a constant freeway speed of 70 mph and measure IATs. One shows a bit lower than the other. What good is this? What does it mean for power production? I'll tell you what it means, it means close to nothing. The reason is that the car isn't on boost, and you're not flowing that much air through the IC, so pressure issues (poor vs good conductance) don't show up. Then the aftermarket ICs are show pieces.

Really, there are two ways to really test ICs. One is with lap times at a track, preferably a windy one with lots of speed changes, the other is with a set of very controlled experiments (like weight, bench airflow, or what I used to to,second gear 20-redline tests). And then, the very controlled experiments still don't tell you how things will be in all environments. BUT they will provide insights into what you have to deal with. Increased mass leads to longer temp time constants, higher pressure drops make whatever is compressing the air work harder (can be a big issue with Eaton SCs).

Basically, you test in extreme conditions to really make the differences show up, then you hope that part of the measured difference actually provides benefit on the street.

Matt

 

So what should I beleive? That someone can put probes on their car and get usless data? Great.
This is why there are engineers and scientists, and then there are people who tinker. I am only asking for a reasonable scientific test if we are to call the results valid. Otherwise why waste everyones time, we might as well just pull the numbers out of the air and call it good.
Measuring temps without flow, IDC, load etc does not give you enough data to accuratley determine anything. That is why it is somtimes easier to perfom the dyno and track tests as there are more controls.
Taking temps without the other data is like measuring your cars gas mileage by how many days you go between fillups. Your missing other data, like the actual miles driven.

 

I have been following this thread with great joy! The biggest thing I have learned from all of this is the extreme joy that we all have sitting in the Garage (AKA. the MINI). We all want to make ours do anything from "just a little bit better" to "Holy (insert favorite expletive), this the the best thing ever!" Some of us only use our MINIs for the enjoyment of driving to and from work and getting together with other MINI owners for a rally or to bench race. Others are building purpose built track cars that turn head in the quarter mile or make people look twice at the little car making great lap times. But the one main thing we all have in common is the love of a little going machine! I for one have enjoyed how people from all walks of life have chimed in to give their opinion on ICs. And how even our beloved vendors have stepped up to the plate to help us, the end users, find joy in our research of "which is better". I guess you could say that I have drank the Kookaide of making my car what I want it to be. But what I want my car to be may not be what the next guy wants it to be. You can only make some of the people happy some of the time and can never make all of the people happy all of the time. Three cheers for the Mini Community!!!
CHEERS!
CHEERS!
CHEERS!

 

ohhh alta is mad at me....
sure if you can find the data feel free to pm it to me. i would love to see it.
i never said that your products suck i just said that i dident see the value in it over some modss that you can do first.
yes its a valid point if people have bought all the other stuff first. but i feel that an intercooler should be the last thing you should do to cap it off.
i know of plenty of 250 to 262 horse cars that ran the stock intercooler and suffered little from it.
Yours may be better and you may have the data to prove it but i would think with that long post you would have thrown that in there insted of just saying well the datas out there.
its like saying that your taller than me and you've never met me.
upshot is submit the data!

 

Thanks Matt - I get that... I understand that the extreme track conditions expose weaknesses.... but still seems to me that there are a number of factors that impact supercharger performance (not accounting for the bling factor, which counts if you're a car show guy):
* flow characteristics / constriction / pressure drop - seems like the impact of these on performance varies based on whether you're at WOT or not
* cooling efficiency - approach temps. Seems that this might vary based on airflow... and possibly even that one IC could be most efficient with super high airflow (e.g. at 120MPH) but another might be more efficient at low airflow (e.g. 40mph)
* heat soak / recovery time characteristics (again, seems this would be sensitive to speed as well as stop&go conditions)

I have NO dog in this hunt... I run stock SC and hadn't planned to upgrade, but might if I found that a SC would provide significant improvement for twisty mountain performance driving (my current belief is that the recovery characteristics of the OEM are an advantage here)... I'm just trying to wrap my head around whether one can really take the results of "extreme conditions" track testing and interpolate from those results that best on the track equals best on the street...

 

Ok, I just got to my computer and its excellent to see people actually talking about this and how to make it work. I'll be going thru the posts from last night starting with this one BigHowe


Just so you know, I am a great GUY! seriously, no offense taken man. Besides that your right, I have no background or history with data logging a car and don't claim to. I simply offered to do the testing with my car after Peter approached me and asked if I would be interested. More than most have done in this thread if you ask me. I do believe that the data I will gather will be beneficial. Will it be scientific? I'm no scientist, but the data will still be data.

I don't think the goal here is to "prove" anything scientifically or "prove" anything really. People have been asking for data... hell any data. Peter stepped to the plate and has offered to provide the data that a normal user like myself can gather. Thats all, I've said it before. Not all people are going to benefit from this information. I think people like myself will find it helpful. People that drive their cars daily, thru canyons, around town etc. Will it be perfect in every way shape and form? No. Will it provide usable information/data to a bulk of users on this forum? Yes.

Ok, here you putting words in peoples mouths so to speak. Peter has never said anything of this sort and neither have I.

If your asking if I get my car to full throttle thru the gears or stay in third up a canyon or on onramps with the hammer down you bet I do. Do I have it full throttle on the freeway in 6th absolutely not. Will the car see full throttle you bet. Anyone that comes on a board and says their car is never at full throttle on a public street is a liar in my opinion.


Again, this is perception. The data/information gathering that I do will provide helpful information to part of this community. Thats all I want to do, If someone had done something like this before me, you bet I would have appreciated it. For the people that bolt on mods and wonder "What gains will I see from an intercooler for a daily driver"? Thats what this test is about.

Now don't get me wrong, for all the others out there that want dyno, track info. I'm still not opposed to going to Cali and running the car around a track/dyno. Its just that I can't do it immediately. There seems to be quite a bit of prep to make that happen too.