Drivetrain M7 vs Alta intercooler, what one and why?
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,902
Likes: 2
From: SoCaL (Agoura Hills)
Not really, his shoe size analogy just didn't really work. His point was that M7 has deceptive marketing, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that's followed any of their "Product Launches" before.
Deliver what you promise. Don't exaggerate. Even if the largest core of your clientèle will not ask questions and will happily drink the coolaid, it does not mean that eventually you will not be called out. To put it even simpler: be honest.
That is all I am trying to say.
That is all I am trying to say.
I guess all I have to offer about M7 is my personal experience.
Everything I have been told by them has been spot on
Performance about parts sold to me were spot on
Customer service and support has been 10/10
Other might have experienced something different and I'm not saying that. I can just voice my personal experience with M7
Now don't get me wrong, I tend to buy things from word of mouth. I have actually gone thru quite a few parts on my car to the tune of a heavy chunk of change. Having actual numbers to back up parts only helps sell them for sure.
The problem we have here is there is a wide range of users that have different needs. Meeting all of those needs for one part is simply not going to happen.
For instance a water to air system wouldn't work well for someone that drives around in the city. It would simply heat soak too much and never recover. An air to air would be much more beneficial.
I dunno, its almost like we need some sort of "Race products" and "Street" Products category
Banned
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,054
Likes: 0
From: As far away from Florida as I can get.
The problem we have here is there is a wide range of users that have different needs. Meeting all of those needs for one part is simply not going to happen.
For instance a water to air system wouldn't work well for someone that drives around in the city. It would simply heat soak too much and never recover. An air to air would be much more beneficial.
I dunno, its almost like we need some sort of "Race products" and "Street" Products category
For instance a water to air system wouldn't work well for someone that drives around in the city. It would simply heat soak too much and never recover. An air to air would be much more beneficial.
I dunno, its almost like we need some sort of "Race products" and "Street" Products category
The first thing that comes to my mind is the fitment issue with their strut tower brace. If I recall they knew that some people were having trouble with them, they have a "How to" on their forums to help make it fit better.
Anyway, I can go to 99% of the sites advertised on these boards and find nothing negative written by the vendor about their own products. Believe me, M7 isn't the only vendor that isn't backing up claims as well as some would like
Anyway, I can go to 99% of the sites advertised on these boards and find nothing negative written by the vendor about their own products. Believe me, M7 isn't the only vendor that isn't backing up claims as well as some would like
5th Gear
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Well, if I could add a comment. We have been to this place before, and continuing will probably not be constructive on this forum. If we are to ask specific questions to specific claims, which at times we have, we can move on. But as soon as we reach generalities about a vendor the curtains will close. Not trying to be a killjoy, but I'd rather keep moving ahead. 
Banned
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,054
Likes: 0
From: As far away from Florida as I can get.
Well, if I could add a comment. We have been to this place before, and continuing will probably not be constructive on this forum. If we are to ask specific questions to specific claims, which at times we have, we can move on. But as soon as we reach generalities about a vendor the curtains will close. Not trying to be a killjoy, but I'd rather keep moving ahead.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 2
From: Oregon, USA
Reading though old threads and using the search function on this site has told me what I already pretty much knew - that intercoolers do next to nothing for you performance wise and offer about the least bang for your buck dollar wise.
This holds true for most other forced induction cars that use an intercooler. The same debates can be found on the Subaru and Mitsubishi forums. I would recommend that you go check them out for yourself before you spent $900.00 of your hard earned dollars.
If you aren't inclined to delve more into the subject - let me give you the conclusions and save you several hours of reading - the arguments are the exact same. A group of people who have been "down that road" will pop into a discussion and explain how in a select situation, under a distinct set of conditions, a larger intercooler may provide a slim amount of benefit.
The arguing then begins as people who have spent their hard earned $$$ defend their decision by referencing perceived tactile improvements or showing how with monitoring temps, that a 15 degree improvement may have been reached.
In the end, the bottom line is that most of the people here cannot tell you what that small improvement in efficiency translates into in terms of actual performance. Remember, aftermarket intercoolers do not make horsepower the way a pulley,a head or a proper tune will.
To the original poster - you have two choices: You can ask both Alta and M7 via PM or e-mail, to provide actual testing data that shows where their products are more efficient than the stock unit and either ask them or do the proper research as to how that efficiency difference actually affects your driving experience.
.......or you can pick the intercooler that is the prettiest. Again, in the end, the difference you perceive may be more related to the aesthetic pleasure it gives you rather than any actual measurable performance gain.
This holds true for most other forced induction cars that use an intercooler. The same debates can be found on the Subaru and Mitsubishi forums. I would recommend that you go check them out for yourself before you spent $900.00 of your hard earned dollars.
If you aren't inclined to delve more into the subject - let me give you the conclusions and save you several hours of reading - the arguments are the exact same. A group of people who have been "down that road" will pop into a discussion and explain how in a select situation, under a distinct set of conditions, a larger intercooler may provide a slim amount of benefit.
The arguing then begins as people who have spent their hard earned $$$ defend their decision by referencing perceived tactile improvements or showing how with monitoring temps, that a 15 degree improvement may have been reached.
In the end, the bottom line is that most of the people here cannot tell you what that small improvement in efficiency translates into in terms of actual performance. Remember, aftermarket intercoolers do not make horsepower the way a pulley,a head or a proper tune will.
To the original poster - you have two choices: You can ask both Alta and M7 via PM or e-mail, to provide actual testing data that shows where their products are more efficient than the stock unit and either ask them or do the proper research as to how that efficiency difference actually affects your driving experience.
.......or you can pick the intercooler that is the prettiest. Again, in the end, the difference you perceive may be more related to the aesthetic pleasure it gives you rather than any actual measurable performance gain.
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
From: Southern California
A few thoughts from someone who probably has spent more $$ on after market modifications and equipment than just about anyone on this forum 
.
First of all, I think there are way too many posts, analogies, etc. in this thread. Isn't there something about beating a deceased equine? Objective analysis is good, but vendor bashing isn't very classy.
Secondly, if a vendor makes an unsubstantiated claim, it is quite reasonable to ask for some hard data. The vendor's response, whether public or private or if at all, is part of the information to be processed when carrying out your "due diligence" about the particular product or service.
We do live in a country with a free market system, and "truth in advertising" is often relative. The bottom line is CAVEAT EMPTOR
Just my $0.035.....
.First of all, I think there are way too many posts, analogies, etc. in this thread. Isn't there something about beating a deceased equine? Objective analysis is good, but vendor bashing isn't very classy.
Secondly, if a vendor makes an unsubstantiated claim, it is quite reasonable to ask for some hard data. The vendor's response, whether public or private or if at all, is part of the information to be processed when carrying out your "due diligence" about the particular product or service.
We do live in a country with a free market system, and "truth in advertising" is often relative. The bottom line is CAVEAT EMPTOR
Just my $0.035.....
5th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 836
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
[quote=big howe;2285644]Well, if I have to do it myself, vendor cooperation or not, I'll buy every product that doesn't get volunteered by a fellow motorer. By getting a small group of peers, for example Dr. O, Dr. Phil G, and I'm sure some others, together to come to a consensus on what a fair testing program would be for each mode of use(track, street, drag), we could put real results in public that most couldn't argue with, whether they like it or not.
Which products have been donated and which ones are you going to buy? I will pledge $50.00 to help with costs. Anyone else willing to donate money? Alta and M7 - can you guys donate an intercooler? Let's do the comparative test and stop the endless catharsis and bitc# session.
Which products have been donated and which ones are you going to buy? I will pledge $50.00 to help with costs. Anyone else willing to donate money? Alta and M7 - can you guys donate an intercooler? Let's do the comparative test and stop the endless catharsis and bitc# session.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 2
From: Oregon, USA
This isn't going to solve anything.........
Too many different conditions to have to test under. Daily street driving (how long of a test and at what time of year), Canyon driving (legalities), Track (easy, but which track), AutoX (why........lol).
These IC's at best add very little power (efficiency) over a stock unit. Pick the one that looks best under the hood and be happy with a lighter wallet.
Too many different conditions to have to test under. Daily street driving (how long of a test and at what time of year), Canyon driving (legalities), Track (easy, but which track), AutoX (why........lol).
These IC's at best add very little power (efficiency) over a stock unit. Pick the one that looks best under the hood and be happy with a lighter wallet.
How do you know anything about these two intercoolers? Have you owned either?
5th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 836
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
This isn't going to solve anything.........
Too many different conditions to have to test under. Daily street driving (how long of a test and at what time of year), Canyon driving (legalities), Track (easy, but which track), AutoX (why........lol).
These IC's at best add very little power (efficiency) over a stock unit. Pick the one that looks best under the hood and be happy with a lighter wallet.
Too many different conditions to have to test under. Daily street driving (how long of a test and at what time of year), Canyon driving (legalities), Track (easy, but which track), AutoX (why........lol).
These IC's at best add very little power (efficiency) over a stock unit. Pick the one that looks best under the hood and be happy with a lighter wallet.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,902
Likes: 2
From: SoCaL (Agoura Hills)
A few thoughts from someone who probably has spent more $$ on after market modifications and equipment than just about anyone on this forum .
First of all, I think there are way too many posts, analogies, etc. in this thread. Isn't there something about beating a deceased equine? Objective analysis is good, but vendor bashing isn't very classy.
Secondly, if a vendor makes an unsubstantiated claim, it is quite reasonable to ask for some hard data. The vendor's response, whether public or private or if at all, is part of the information to be processed when carrying out your "due diligence" about the particular product or service.
We do live in a country with a free market system, and "truth in advertising" is often relative. The bottom line is CAVEAT EMPTOR
Just my $0.035.....
.First of all, I think there are way too many posts, analogies, etc. in this thread. Isn't there something about beating a deceased equine? Objective analysis is good, but vendor bashing isn't very classy.
Secondly, if a vendor makes an unsubstantiated claim, it is quite reasonable to ask for some hard data. The vendor's response, whether public or private or if at all, is part of the information to be processed when carrying out your "due diligence" about the particular product or service.
We do live in a country with a free market system, and "truth in advertising" is often relative. The bottom line is CAVEAT EMPTOR
Just my $0.035.....
Bob.What's up with your car, hear anything back yet?
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,178
Likes: 0
From: Outside of Phila, PA
Ok. First of for the record, it took me about 4 sittings to read this whole godforsaken thread. Very entertaining but I got a headache.
I think its awesome that Howe and others want to do some legit testing with ICs but as mentioned above, it will be really difficult to provide accurate results. This is simply because of the nature of the part itself. Temperature is obviously the main issue here. Maybe its just me but I dont know how I'd test this and get truly objective results that won't get **** flamed out of them. I don't want to be negative or a downer here, but any sort of shoot-out like this would need some very extensive planning and overall agreement before anything is done. Hopefully that would maximize the legitimacy of the results.
I think its awesome that Howe and others want to do some legit testing with ICs but as mentioned above, it will be really difficult to provide accurate results. This is simply because of the nature of the part itself. Temperature is obviously the main issue here. Maybe its just me but I dont know how I'd test this and get truly objective results that won't get **** flamed out of them. I don't want to be negative or a downer here, but any sort of shoot-out like this would need some very extensive planning and overall agreement before anything is done. Hopefully that would maximize the legitimacy of the results.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 2
From: Oregon, USA
Boy you definitely have an agenda don't ya........
I have enough experience and am able to read as well as anyone else.
Banned
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,054
Likes: 0
From: As far away from Florida as I can get.
