Drivetrain M7 vs Alta intercooler, what one and why?
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
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From: New Brunswick, NJ
As an early mod it doesn't make a lot of sense return on the dollar wise. Once other modifications to the power train have been affected and there is still room in the budget then it's time to bring in one of the aftermarket I/C's that fit your driving style and climate to help make the most of the other expenditures.
Of course, probably the best-performing A2A out there is the JCW GP I/C. Yes, you need to buy one from Europe, but they're the same price or cheaper than the Alta or M7 yet they perform better. Plus, they're factory parts!
I could not agree more with Nate on the priority of a aftermarket IC with regards to upgrading your power plant. With rare exception , the main one being climate , there are several other things that will give you a much bigger bang for the buck. A pulley conversion is usually the foremost on anyone's list and after that it is all a law of diminishing returns. In my opinion a IC rates up with here with a header for example. A header on a stock car will give you next to nothing as far as an increase in power but once you begin to modify the car with a intake and perhaps a head and cam you begin to truly get your monies worth out of that purchase. The key thing to remember with any IC is that they don't really make much HP, they SAVE it .
Randy
M7 tuning
Randy
M7 tuning
you couldn't be more wrong in this case
if you bought the proper header it IS WELL DOCUMENTED that they make power. Look at the dyno days and who had what parts.
There lies your answer
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 117
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From: San Diego
Thanks Gnat for the clarification because that wasnt an advertisement especially since I dont even own anything from RMW, but I have spent countless hours on NAM researching what works and what doesnt,and the backbone to my previous statements lies in the dyno sheets and I appreciate the fact that you recognized that.
MyKE
MyKE
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: New Brunswick, NJ
(Of course, it could just be that BECAUSE M7 does not make a header, they won't say that a header makes power. It's much easier and more lucrative to sell a DFIC or a Cosworth head for twice the price of a header as long as they can convince people to buy them!)
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
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From: Fresno Ca.
Spot on. You can make/save/whatever lots more power through pulley and head mods than you can with a conventional top-mounted air-to-air I/C. Some water-to-air or even front-mounted A2A intercoolers make significant gains without regard to the level of modification of your car, but this is simply not the case with A2A's.
Of course, probably the best-performing A2A out there is the JCW GP I/C. Yes, you need to buy one from Europe, but they're the same price or cheaper than the Alta or M7 yet they perform better. Plus, they're factory parts!
Of course, probably the best-performing A2A out there is the JCW GP I/C. Yes, you need to buy one from Europe, but they're the same price or cheaper than the Alta or M7 yet they perform better. Plus, they're factory parts!
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
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From: New Brunswick, NJ
I did not. I said "significant gains."
Lies! Since M7 does not make a header, it is patently obvious that no header works. Simple, logical, M7.
(Of course, it could just be that BECAUSE M7 does not make a header, they won't say that a header makes power. It's much easier and more lucrative to sell a DFIC or a Cosworth head for twice the price of a header as long as they can convince people to buy them!)
(Of course, it could just be that BECAUSE M7 does not make a header, they won't say that a header makes power. It's much easier and more lucrative to sell a DFIC or a Cosworth head for twice the price of a header as long as they can convince people to buy them!)
In my opinion a IC rates up with here with a header for example. A header on a stock car will give you next to nothing as far as an increase in power but once you begin to modify the car with a intake and perhaps a head and cam you begin to truly get your monies worth out of that purchase. The key thing to remember with any IC is that they don't really make much HP, they SAVE it .
Randy
M7 tuning
Randy
M7 tuning
Are you guys saying that a header on a stock car with no other mods is a good investment? .....come on
5th Gear
Joined: May 2008
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Keep in mind that I'm not doing an end all beat all test and I want to be clear on that. The testing that I am doing is gong to show basic inlet/outlet temps. No pressures, no dyno and no track. I'm simply running some temp probes and seeing how each intercooler does cooling wise under "street conditions"
I think you need to re read Randy's post... oh wait, let me quote it for you so its all in one place for you.
All he said was its "his opinion" that a header rates up there with an IC on a stock car. And once you start modifying that increase will be greater. This is the truth
Are you guys saying that a header on a stock car with no other mods is a good investment? .....come on
I think you need to re read Randy's post... oh wait, let me quote it for you so its all in one place for you.
All he said was its "his opinion" that a header rates up there with an IC on a stock car. And once you start modifying that increase will be greater. This is the truth
Are you guys saying that a header on a stock car with no other mods is a good investment? .....come on
At least with the header you have performance all the time, it's always the same. With the IC, what you get varies with the conditions making it even less of a dollar/performance value.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
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From: Fresno Ca.
Ahh, I think you need to read your own post again, Let me help you, you said, "Some water-to-air or even front-mounted A2A intercoolers make significant gains" Then you procede to say, "but this is simply not the case with A2A's." So what is it?
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
Lies! Since M7 does not make a header, it is patently obvious that no header works. Simple, logical, M7.
(Of course, it could just be that BECAUSE M7 does not make a header, they won't say that a header makes power. It's much easier and more lucrative to sell a DFIC or a Cosworth head for twice the price of a header as long as they can convince people to buy them!)
(Of course, it could just be that BECAUSE M7 does not make a header, they won't say that a header makes power. It's much easier and more lucrative to sell a DFIC or a Cosworth head for twice the price of a header as long as they can convince people to buy them!)
This is just asking for problems.
To bad the sarcasm in ingsoc's post is lost.
Lets stick the issue at hand please. We need to sit back and wait to see what Instense brings to the table.
I hate the whip..but I'll crack it if need be.
To bad the sarcasm in ingsoc's post is lost.
Lets stick the issue at hand please. We need to sit back and wait to see what Instense brings to the table.
I hate the whip..but I'll crack it if need be.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
Lies! Since M7 does not make a header, it is patently obvious that no header works. Simple, logical, M7.
(Of course, it could just be that BECAUSE M7 does not make a header, they won't say that a header makes power. It's much easier and more lucrative to sell a DFIC or a Cosworth head for twice the price of a header as long as they can convince people to buy them!)
(Of course, it could just be that BECAUSE M7 does not make a header, they won't say that a header makes power. It's much easier and more lucrative to sell a DFIC or a Cosworth head for twice the price of a header as long as they can convince people to buy them!)
The Mini header is notoriously restrictive and full of compromises. There are dyno sheets years back showing improvements even with the cheap OBX. I wish I had dynoed before and after with the OBX on my stock car as there was a vast improvement.
At least with the header you have performance all the time, it's always the same. With the IC, what you get varies with the conditions making it even less of a dollar/performance value.
At least with the header you have performance all the time, it's always the same. With the IC, what you get varies with the conditions making it even less of a dollar/performance value.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
I'm done for now 
Looks like a shot because you are looking for a shot.
There are quite a few thinly veiled cheap shots at all kinds of things in the thread. So to get this far in and start reporting stuff ...yikes...
Hello Pot, please meet Kettle...
There are quite a few thinly veiled cheap shots at all kinds of things in the thread. So to get this far in and start reporting stuff ...yikes...
Hello Pot, please meet Kettle...
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,446
Likes: 10
From: L.A ca
Randy
M7 Tuning
The Mini header is notoriously restrictive and full of compromises. There are dyno sheets years back showing improvements even with the cheap OBX. I wish I had dynoed before and after with the OBX on my stock car as there was a vast improvement.
At least with the header you have performance all the time, it's always the same. With the IC, what you get varies with the conditions making it even less of a dollar/performance value.
At least with the header you have performance all the time, it's always the same. With the IC, what you get varies with the conditions making it even less of a dollar/performance value.
A header making more power all the time versus an IC makes sense to me. Also making more power with a after market header over stock does too. I just wasn't under the impression that it was more than a few ponies.
Not like I really know more than I've read on forums tho. I have yet to take the header plunge
I've been trying to keep my car as civil as I can.... not sure I'll be able to withstand the draw of the "big power" from a head, header, Quaif...and so on much longer.Anyway, as many twists and turns as this thread has had I really do think there is much knowledge in it from many informed people in the NAM community.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: New Brunswick, NJ
You don't know me. I've owned nearly every M7 "go fast" part and seen all of them fail to make my car any faster. Oh, and, the Cosworth kit that was on my car actually ruined my previous engine. But... no, I did not say that Cosworth anything sucked (although I may believe it does after owning it).
I made a comment about the DFIC I/C, a part which also does not deliver. It has no appreciable gains on a dyno and to me seems to make no difference in my few driving experiences in cars with the DFIC. The difference is certainly not significant, but the price certainly is. I believe that I have the right to say that. And, apparently so do the moderators. Carry on... and please leave me alone. I have done nothing to you.
I made a comment about the DFIC I/C, a part which also does not deliver. It has no appreciable gains on a dyno and to me seems to make no difference in my few driving experiences in cars with the DFIC. The difference is certainly not significant, but the price certainly is. I believe that I have the right to say that. And, apparently so do the moderators. Carry on... and please leave me alone. I have done nothing to you.
Last edited by ingsoc; Jun 26, 2008 at 08:21 PM.
I disagree with you .Perhaps I wasn't clear enough but my point was that like an aftermarket IC you will get more " bang for your buck " further down the mod list with a header. You can't tell me that you will make the same horsepower gain with a header on a stock engine as one you have done a head, intake and cam to.
Randy
M7 Tuning
Randy
M7 Tuning
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,446
Likes: 10
From: L.A ca
Randy
M7 Tuning