He gets your point...we all get your point. It's your analogy/logic that is flawed.

Maybe a better analogy would be a video card or processor for your computer. They are both advertised to physically fit and they are both marketed with repeatable and obtainable performance numbers. I think this is how you'd like the intercoolers to be marketed, yes?

 

Certainly if you're trying to imply a lack of intelligence on my part....I should only be riding the short bus not driving it....right?

I understand the point you were trying to make.....I agreed with your point on my first post. I then went on to explain MY own point as an extension of your analogy....and that point is that many products that sell in MASSIVE numbers are sold everyday without any of the important information.

So shoe size is important...I agree....but bear with me for the rest of this. If you were an avid runner....perhaps you run some of the big marathons in your area.....you probably want the running shoe that provides the best bounce or best traction. I've seen lots of shoe advertisements claiming that they have awesome performance due to special technology (e.g. those nike spring shock things).....as I said before, they make those claims without any sort of back up or test results that are made public.

I agree with your point. I already said that....I was just furthering the analogy to point out that a large number of products are sold daily without any numbers. Look how many people buy coilovers for their MINI.....you MIGHT find out what spring rate they are.....but you see no lap times, no test results, nothing.....and yet people buy them. All I'm suggesting is that you think about the things you buy....and think about how many of them have actual numbers to prove their superiority over other products.

Another example being Cheerios cereal (since that commercial just came on)....they claim that they've done testing that proves that their cereal will lower your cholesterol a certain amount. They claim they've done tests...they have an amount to tell you....and they show people who said that it really worked, but you never see the tests.......how is that any different than a vendor saying that they've tested their IC, give you a specific horsepower gain number, and share some positive reviews from customers without actually showing you the dynos.

 

My argument is if a shoe company were to make performance claims, we would ask for data and proof.

 

And my point is that statement is not true. Lots of shoes claim performance gains or benefits and I've never ever seen those advertisements include any sort of graph or numbers....and yet, lots of people still buy them.

 

I cannot speak intelligently as to your shopping habits, but if the salesman says I will run farther or faster in a certain shoe, I ask questions.

 

We're not talking in specifics here.....I'm just saying that millions of people see the performance claims and buy the shoes without even asking for the proof...

He said that it would be hard to sell a product that they claimed increased performance without the numbers....I was simply pointing out that that wasn't true. Shoe companies have zero problems making performance claims and still selling the shoes to millions of people without showing the numbers. YOU might ask for proof.....but the majority of people don't.

I am curious though....has anyone ever asked a major car company for proof of advertised HP numbers or other performance numbers? Just curious....

 

OK, so to expand on your analogy, the DFIC would be equivalent of guys who don't run buying shoes and sitting around on the couch marveling at how good they look on their feet?

 

Are you trying to say that the intercooler "just" looks good and has no beneficial gain for many many users?

 

I'm not saying they're hard to sell, I'm saying if you make claims, people will question those claims.

 

Depends on whether the shoes really DO improve their running or not...they might only look good...I've always wondered how those NIKE shock shoes felt though

 

You're missing the distinction between people buying shoes (Sure, people buy shoes, people obviously buy the DFIC too) and people making informed, intelligent decisions on said purchases.

Like big howe, I can't speak for your buying habits, but if someone makes ridiculous claims about a product, I want proof. I don't just take it in stride and assume it's real.

Example: The AGS claim of 25+ lb-ft gains from an intake. That's nearly UNHEARD of. If ambiguous claims were made that's a different story (car will drive better and heat soak less).

Direct Comparison to your shoe analogy: If Nike claimed that you'll reduce your 1 mile run times by 2 minutes by using their shoes, you'd just assume it's true? Vs their actual claims of "Increased spring, and sticky rubber soles for increased traction".

One makes ambiguous claims that pretty much anyone can draw a conclusion from (Rubber is sticky?). The other, while great if you're trying to add superfluous fluff to your marketing bs, means nothing without performance backups and explanation.

I'm fairly sure that's the point that british racing green was trying to make...

 

And I'm saying that 99% of the public WON'T ask questions....and don't.

Think of how many people probably buy Cheerios cereal because they hear it's good for their heart.....I bet only a handful out of the thousands of customers ever send the company a letter asking for proof.

Want proof?....look around at how many people have coilovers installed on their MINI (it's a pretty good sized group). Now search NAM and find me a thread where the vendor or manufacturer of those coilovers has ever done a track comparison of a car with stock suspension and a car with the coilovers installed and posted the lap times to prove that they handle curves better.

 

I was looking at SpiderX's old post on a DFIC thread. He and and DrPhilGhandi said they ran thermocouple tests on their units. Any more details on that?

When you say driving the shortbus do you mean the Clubman?

 

I am not saying it. But the owners who were trying to get the most performance out of their cars and have removed theirs in favor of stock, or GP intercoolers are saying it louder then words.

I always wondered about those myself. But having a wide foot and a pronounced something or other I was advised against them by my local running shoe store pro. Actually according to them all shoes are about the same. None will make you faster, or make you jump higher. It's the fit and how they respond to your individual running style that makes the difference. For years I ran in whatever latest and greatest was and had the knee, hip and back problems to show for it. Once I had a pro look at my running style and put me in correct shoes I actually grown to like running which I detested before.

 

No no, didn't you read Peter's post, it's the equivalent of people who don't run walking with their shoes and marveling at how good they look on their feet...

DFIC, great for the street, sucks on the track. Peter's words, not mine (With some creative marketing flair of course).

How an intercooler could be more efficient at low speed than high speed is beyond my technical/engineering knowledge.

For the record, Vans > Running Shoes.

 

Look at my cheerio's analogy....I'm not saying that I would personally buy them based on the claims.....I was simply stating that lots of people believe it without asking for numbers. Yes....they're making uniformed decisions....but that's exactly my whole point all along. He claimed that it would be hard to sell a part without posting proof of the numbers.....but that's only correct if you assume that EVERYONE makes informed decisions which is never the case.

My whole point all along is this.....The majority of people make uninformed decisions to buy things based on the hype without asking for proof, thus...it would not be hard to sell a product "while withholding important information"

 

Performance is a relative term, those that are touting it louder than words haven't had success with the DFIC on the track

Those that are touting success with the product don't race.

Like with shoes, cheerios, DFIC, stock parts whatever..... there are applications and users that they all work excellent for

 

Short Bus = http://short-bus.urbanup.com/525421

WARNING!: NON-PC STUFF BELOW!!!!

 

Agreed. But Mr. M7 did post "But the bottom line is, the DFIC outperforms most units out there " which is quiet a stretch given the extremely limited circumstances when it does so.

 

I'm not so sure about that. It might be a stretch, but I would dare say that at the very least 90% of people that mod their cars will never have it on a track.
I would go so far as to say that "most" Mini owners and modders street their cars.

Do we want to have every part out there being criticized for its performance on the track? Do we want to have a community thats biased to only buy and sell track tested parts?

EDIT: Granted, I know a ton of our mods come to us because of people that do track their cars and from racing technology. I just think that other vendors are able to offer excellent products to the community that don't have a "racing" pedigree

 

Maybe I forgot what I wrote, I'm not saying they're hard to sell, there's a sucker born every minute. I'm saying any specific performance claims will be questioned by peers. You don't go and ask questions about new drugs coming to market, that's the other doctors job. Well, I'm going to ask some questions.
You can take any drug you like, I'm sure they're happy to take your money.

 

I would say that 90% of Porsche drivers will never have their cars on the track either (at least around where I live). But as far as I can tell Porsche doesn't make BS claims and back up the ones they do make.

 

The relevance of that comparison is? ...sorry, Its just not making sense to me.

Were talking car parts here right? I'm sure that there are many many more Porsche owners that will buy parts just because they are told they work better without asking for dyno sheets and graphs.... hell. I know a few of them

 

Deliver what you promise. Don't exaggerate. Even if the largest core of your clientèle will not ask questions and will happily drink the coolaid, it does not mean that eventually you will not be called out. To put it even simpler: be honest.

That is all I am trying to say.

 

I know....british racing green did. And he's who I was originally talking to