I didn't remember Nick using the words crap or garbage or even bashing a particular vendor in this thread, so I went back and read it again and you know what, he didn't. All he said was that in his opinion money could be better spent in other areas than buying an aftermarket intercooler, that they were not worth it to him, but if you wanted to buy one, then do it. Check it yourself

 

Lets just move on everyone and get the thread back on it's original topic.

 

You vs. M7, Alta, many smart consumers. I love it!


I gotta ask...what is your motivation??? Really?

 

Peter pays me to badmouth his products so he can rush in to save the day with real facts.

And Alta, well, I'm just jealous that Adam has so many nice cars.

 

For those that think everything I post is a fact and I have to back it up, the above post was a joke...

 

Damn, I thought it finally all made perfect sense.......

 

So... there's all sorts of talk in this thread (among others) about people who have "gone back to stock intercoolers and made more power". Who are these people and do they have verifiable, objective data? Before/after dynos... something like that? I hear these stories and find them hard to believe.

Yes, I recently installed an aftermarket IC and felt an improvement over stock. No, I don't have objective data to support my opinion. Do I have to be the first one to do an independant before/after dyno to see quantifiable results?

 

I put an Alta V1 on and the car didn't want to rev. Put stock back on and it seemed happier. As for dyno results, see my sig (done with the GP setup)

 

well i think and no offense to rustyboy, if you havent personally yourself used or seen the data from the m7 or alta products then you shouldnt knock them, and if you have then by all means tell everyone.

the problems with alot of these is that everything is subjective opinions, and most of it has no real proof. if youve used the product then say how you feel about it, if you havent used it dont. this is the stuff that frustrates me, i almost got rid of all my current m7 products because another member told me how horrible they are and has never know anyone to have anything but problems with them, then spoke to a member that uses the products and puts 240 at the wheels

all the manufactures, rmw, m7, alta may all have some good and some bad products it happens its all about r&d. but i dont think they need to knock eachother atleast with out hard evidence and testing

as far as the topic goes, i just bought a m7 dfic v1.0, and it does stay cooler then the stock one, and yes i will dyno both as soon as i get the time to go. do i have a guage that tell me so NO i dont, but i do put my hand on it. i drive the same path everyday and even with 95 degree weather here in oklahoma the m7 is much cooler to the touch over stock.

 

Here lies the rub. Nobody has seen any indisputable data from M7. Numbers are routinely promised and not delivered. While claims are made, methodology and controls used in testing are never revealed. I know this is not exact science, but in real world test results are not considered valid until they have been reviewed and verified by peers. Until then, vendor claims are just that, claims. And the amount of BS of the claim goes up with the price of the product.

Wonderful statement like "we are busy making products, employing good people and keeping cnc shops, composite shops and other employed" sound great when posted, but say absolutely nothing about the efficiency of the product. It could just as easily be applied to someone making door *****.

 

Doc Obnoxious has serious testing results on several IC units. I can't find the thread but perhaps someone else knows what I'm talking about and has a link.

 

MC 2 magazine should do a test and put a stop to all this!

 

Do you honestly think they will risk offending one of their biggest advertisers? Being employed by a publishing company I can tell you that will never happen.

 

No link, but I do know what you're taking about. I've spoke to Doc in private about it. He pretty much says what's already been said. It will meet your specific needs under certain circumstances. As long as being competitive against others is not one of them.

 

and i completly understand that, if my car didnt come with a bunch of m7 products on it already then i probobly wouldnt have baught their product myself just on what they claim. i would however buy them if say you said "man this m7 pulley ads alot of hp youve got to check this out"

but my statement was morely directed to fellow members telling us we shouldnt buy something because they dont like the manufactor or they feel its shady becuase m7 doesnt post dyno sheets, we merely ask questions to the people who have tested the products and know how it works. not to people who havent tested it and dont know how it works

and this is more of a genreal problem not just against rustyboy

 

Reading though old threads and using the search function on this site has told me what I already pretty much knew - that intercoolers do next to nothing for you performance wise and offer about the least bang for your buck dollar wise.

This holds true for most other forced induction cars that use an intercooler. The same debates can be found on the Subaru and Mitsubishi forums. I would recommend that you go check them out for yourself before you spent $900.00 of your hard earned dollars.

If you aren't inclined to delve more into the subject - let me give you the conclusions and save you several hours of reading - the arguments are the exact same. A group of people who have been "down that road" will pop into a discussion and explain how in a select situation, under a distinct set of conditions, a larger intercooler may provide a slim amount of benefit.

The arguing then begins as people who have spent their hard earned $$$ defend their decision by referencing perceived tactile improvements or showing how with monitoring temps, that a 15 degree improvement may have been reached.

In the end, the bottom line is that most of the people here cannot tell you what that small improvement in efficiency translates into in terms of actual performance. Remember, aftermarket intercoolers do not make horsepower the way a pulley,a head or a proper tune will.

To the original poster - you have two choices: You can ask both Alta and M7 via PM or e-mail, to provide actual testing data that shows where their products are more efficient than the stock unit and either ask them or do the proper research as to how that efficiency difference actually affects your driving experience.

.......or you can pick the intercooler that is the prettiest. Again, in the end, the difference you perceive may be more related to the aesthetic pleasure it gives you rather than any actual measurable performance gain.

 

I've got the document if anybody wants it.

 

Alright since no one actually has the test data I asked for I'll be the mule, at least for the Alta V1. After the Jan tune on June 19th, I'll see if they'll let me swap back to stock to test my before (Alta) and after (stock) results. Swapping stock for Alta should only take a few minutes methinks...the hard part is getting the silicone boots on but I think I'll just reuse the stock boots on the stock cooler and go from there.

Do I think that intercoolers provide a good hp/$ ratio? No, but as your modifications escalate then you start seeing diminishing returns no matter what you do.

So stay tuned for a back-to-back test in 2 weeks!

 

I don't think there is any argument over that. I think we have all learned to look past whatever any vendors have said and realize that an IC will not offer big hp gains.

Why does s/he have to ask vie PM or E-Mail??? Why can't the vendors post their data here on the forum? They shouldn't have anything to hide and it should be known to everyone in the public. Don't you agree? As for the proper research being done...well M7's DFIC2 is even adverstised as having a bung on each end tank FOR EXACTLY THAT...data logging. So if they bothered to put them on their product they must have done tests to confirm that their product does show an improvement over stock. Shouldn't we all get to know the results?? We are spending a grand on a questionable hp improvement product.

Could you please just post it in the forum?? Let everyone be able to read it no?

Steve

 

It bothers me when someone says intercoolers add horsepower (although they can) Intercoolers increase efficiency, change where the power is through the powerband and help you achieve it more efficiently. However you do this is your choice. It allows you to better use the power that your engine has potential for. With pressure drops in bigger IC's you sacrifice driveability and usually increase Hp in the top end because of the surface area. (Everyone already knows this I know) With a smaller intercooler on the mini you get a more lively car, that's why I like the GP and DFIC design. Since the DFIC design is small and efficient, it's a good best of both worlds. That article Bahama Bart refers to explains this in detail.

It also bothers me when someone mentions that throttle bodies are useless and don't give you hp (not what they are supposed to do! Maybe 1 or 2hp). Once again I use the word driveability, making your car more usable. (difficult to document) On the mini, when you increase the plate size in the TB it allows more air to pass through when the plate is barely open making the gas pedal react sooner with your car and foot. How ever you want you car to feel is how you should mod it.

It also bothers me when people mention, "just get a head, tune and pulley" Some people simply don't go this route because it is not easy, spendy, can jeopardize reliability, and people simply want to go another route, or at least not that way yet. Most mods have a purpose given the right situation.

 

I think there is. Most people have not learned to look past what vendors say - why else would we be seeing comments regarding intercoolers, throttle bodies and lightened crank pulleys and how they have resulted in "seat of the pants" improvements?

Most people who have purchased these products and advise against buying them were sucked into the advertising of what these components supposedly do. The reason that these threads get so contentious is that not only do some people believe that they will see huge and noticeable gains with a DFIC or Alta V2 or whatever, but others contend that they have felt noticeable changes. These claims are then challenged.

So the conflict persists because people do think they are adding some measurable performance improvement - why spend $899 on something that perhaps does next to nothing?



Well, it appears that some vendors may be hesitant to post data - it doesn't make a lot of sense to me but M7, for example, always politely asks potential buyers to contact them directly and most of the threads I've seen from them are pretty firm in not wanting to post test data - fo a variety of reasons.

I'm not claiming that there is not an improvement over stock........the question I have is where? Under what conditions? Is there anywhere where it's less efficient than stock? How does, let's say 5% better thermal efficiency translate in terms of performance?

When I was searching through old threads I saw one where the original DFIC testing (done by M7) showed that it actually cooled intake temps to below ambient. Like the AGS-R data which showed a potentially incorrect gain of 25 ft-lb of torque at 2800 rpm in an R56, my initial reaction was disbelief.

Regardless, can either Alta or M7 explain to us what a 9 degree reduction in the intake charge means in terms of performance? Does a 10% increase in efficiency result in 1 hp regained? 5? 20?

 

because it's a fantastic value!

 

What I meant was in this thread in particularly. In the four pages of ranting here we seem to have come to a conclusion that IC's are not the way to go for big HP improvements. However certain people along with the vendors of these products do claim an increase in overall "performance" of their engines with the addition of these and other aftermarket IC's. Problem is other people say that these products are a waste of money and should be spent on other mods like heads and full out race exhaust systems. Not the way to go about expressing your opinion...in my opinion.

Steve

 

Steve:

Most people who understand how intercoolers work already know that you don't get big HP gains with them. The debate should be about the efficiency gains they potentially provide over the stock configuration and how those gains affect overall performance.

When people understand that, they will quit asking if that new DFIC or GRS intercooler will help them break 200 whp on the dyno.

So, to the reps from Alta and M7 - what efficiency gains did you see during the testing process and how does that increase affect performance?

 

Since you're new and curious....these may be of interest to you. I have no idea what version DFIC these were....I think they were just version 1. Lots of testing and thermo diagrams etc....

M7 and others weigh in with their opinions on the efficiency, the numbers, the testing methods etc....

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...highlight=DFIC

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...highlight=DFIC

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...highlight=DFIC