Drivetrain M7 vs Alta intercooler, what one and why?

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Jul 4, 2008 | 01:00 PM

#576

cheiron19

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From: Southern California

Quote:

Originally Posted by big howe

Verifiable gains were only asked for when vendors made specific claims. I would have no issue putting my resume on the table.

And yet, you didn't!

Quote:

Originally Posted by big howe

At the same time I would request to see the vendors resumes, their testing methods and equipment, and all of the data collected for the claims that have been made so they can be verified via peers and duplicate tests.

Do you ask this of every vendor you buy products from? For all of the products that you have attached to your vehicle? So you have the vendors resume, their testing methods and equipment and all of the data that was collected so that you could do the appropriate level of analysis? Did you contact their peers to verify the data and testing? Do you test it to duplicate the results? I didn't think so!

Quote:

Originally Posted by big howe

While we're throwing stones, you can enlighten us on your depth of automotive knowledge and expertise, yes?

You refuse to be enlightened, you would rather toss a few stones yourself. I never claimed to be an automotive expert, yet you and others seem to think you are and demand this type of data from some on the vendors that post here. Would you even be qualified to do the analysis let alone understand the results? For 15 years I've been an engineer for a nuclear power company, mostly dealing with component design and materials analysis, very used to rigorous testing both in the lab and in a real world environment. I also do engineering on the side for a few small race teams, maybe some day I will be in the big time. Now, where's yours?

Last edited by cheiron19; Jul 4, 2008 at 01:14 PM.

Jul 4, 2008 | 01:23 PM

#577

big howe

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ME Degree

As a ME in the Semiconductor Industry
As a NASA Contractor in the Micro Gravity Field
As an ME in the Food Processing Industry
As a Plant Engineer for a National Plastics Company
As consultant in about everything including racing parts.

In fact, for things that matter I do ask. TSW has an engineer on board and data for their items. RMW has piles of dyno sheets pertaining to their parts. Did I ask M7 for their data and testing methods of the USS and strut bar? No. Would I have gotten any data? I'm not sure, but I didn't think the parts where that critical. I never said it was mandatory for every part to be verified, I said I reserve the right to ask questions of public claims if I feel the need. I am also "very used to rigorous testing both in the lab and in a real world environment". And yes, I would be able to do the analysis and understand the results.

Jul 4, 2008 | 01:27 PM

#578

Revolution Mini Works

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From: Irvine, CA

I can't any more "real world" testing than the race track......

the clock never lies

Jul 4, 2008 | 01:33 PM

#579

gnatster

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Just when it was being peaceful and sorta plan was being worked out we get a new player.

Why did this person jump in to this thread now after posting noting for over a year. Whats your agenda?

Jul 4, 2008 | 01:35 PM

#580

Revolution Mini Works

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From: Irvine, CA

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnatster

Just when it was being peaceful and sorta plan was being worked out we get a new player.

Why did this person jump in to this thread now after posting noting for over a year. Whats your agenda?

this is where someone in the background yells.......

"IP check on isle three"

looks like someone dusted off an old alias............

Last edited by Revolution Mini Works; Jul 4, 2008 at 01:36 PM. Reason: adding the obvious

Jul 4, 2008 | 03:07 PM

#581

Paul Webster

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From: Flitwick UK

I tested the GRS back to back at the drag strip and it gained 2 mph over stock and that was on a cold Feb day

Jul 4, 2008 | 03:13 PM

#582

big howe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Webster

I tested the GRS back to back at the drag strip and it gained 2 mph over stock and that was on a cold Feb day

Sounds good. Any idea what that works out to in HP gain on the car(weight) you were running?

I've read about some different versions of the GRS unit over the years. Not sure if the hearsay is true. Are they all the same or are there some significant differences to look out for?

Jul 5, 2008 | 01:39 AM

#583

blue al

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From: Oxford England

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intense

Its a tough crowd I know.... very very much passion in the community

i guess a lot of opinions have been formed already b4 any data has been collected,

so lets start another thread with explanations [excuses] of why things have happend, and how other people will run their own "improved" test program and show their results,

because if their not going to invest their time and money to back up their own opinions, then its just hot air ....

seen a lot guys with big cv`s and a list of qualifications do some really dumb stuff

why make life harder for the guy who is adding to the community, some info is better than none, additional enlightenment will not go amiss
got my last cooler on the basis it looked good in the engine bay,

Jul 5, 2008 | 03:22 AM

#584

Paul Webster

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From: Flitwick UK

The royal we (car and driver) were lighter then 2468lbs

Average 99.745mph over 6 runs with stock IC

Average 102.216mph over 6 runs with GRS

Attached Files

GRS test.xls (20.5 KB, 58 views)

Last edited by Paul Webster; Jul 5, 2008 at 08:01 AM.

Jul 5, 2008 | 05:13 AM

#585

stevecars60

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From: Northampton MA

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnatster

Just when it was being peaceful and sorta plan was being worked out we get a new player.

Why did this person jump in to this thread now after posting noting for over a year. Whats your agenda?

Sometimes you need to take a nice long fishing trip......

Jul 5, 2008 | 06:05 AM

#586

Bahamabart

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Quote:

Originally Posted by stevecars60

Sometimes you need to take a nice long fishing trip......

I think we all need to go fishing and let Intense do his thing. This pre-humping
will just dilute the post-humping.

Intense when you are going to post your "experiences" pls start a new thread so we leave the pre-crap behind

Jul 5, 2008 | 07:36 AM

#587

big howe

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I'm all for letting letting Rob perform his tests. I thought we were all to a point where we were helping him get that accomplished.

Blue Al, all of your comments and questions have been addressed earlier in this thread(it's a good read, see posts 17,133,137) I volunteered to front the cash for these tests, regardless of my involvement. Opinions have been formed before data is collected because of past test results performed by many and comments/data supplied by the manufacturers.

I don't think anyone is trying to make life harder on the guy trying to add to the community, I think everyone is trying to guide him to collecting good data that has some relevance.

P.S. I completely agree, I see a lot of people with big CV's do many stupid things, I also see the same amount of manufacturers(in every trade) do stupid things as well.

Jul 5, 2008 | 07:37 AM

#588

big howe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Webster

The royal we (car and driver) were lighter then 2468lbs

ET 1/8 mph 1/4 mph mph gain

[FONT=Arial]13.5747[/FONT][FONT=Arial]80.4900[/FONT][FONT=Arial]99.6300[/FONT][FONT=Arial]19.1400[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.5931[/FONT][FONT=Arial]80.4700[/FONT][FONT=Arial]98.6700[/FONT][FONT=Arial]18.2000[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.4598[/FONT][FONT=Arial]81.3600[/FONT][FONT=Arial]100.0300[/FONT][FONT=Arial]18.6700[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.6041[/FONT][FONT=Arial]80.8000[/FONT][FONT=Arial]99.5100[/FONT][FONT=Arial]18.7100[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.5312[/FONT][FONT=Arial]81.0600[/FONT][FONT=Arial]100.2000[/FONT][FONT=Arial]19.1400[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.4730[/FONT][FONT=Arial]81.4000[/FONT][FONT=Arial]100.4300[/FONT][FONT=Arial]19.0300[/FONT][FONT=Arial]Fit GRS[/FONT][FONT=Arial][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][/FONT][FONT=Arial][/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.4363[/FONT][FONT=Arial]81.8100[/FONT][FONT=Arial]102.0200[/FONT][FONT=Arial]20.2100[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.4330[/FONT][FONT=Arial]81.9700[/FONT][FONT=Arial]102.0200[/FONT][FONT=Arial]20.0500[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.6051[/FONT][FONT=Arial]81.4000[/FONT][FONT=Arial]102.0100[/FONT][FONT=Arial]20.6100[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.5969[/FONT][FONT=Arial]81.4900[/FONT][FONT=Arial]102.2800[/FONT][FONT=Arial]20.7900[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.5421[/FONT][FONT=Arial]81.9800[/FONT][FONT=Arial]102.4500[/FONT][FONT=Arial]20.4700[/FONT][FONT=Arial]13.4598[/FONT][FONT=Arial]82.4000[/FONT][FONT=Arial]102.5200[/FONT][FONT=Arial]20.1200[/FONT]

My eyes hurt Paul.

Jul 5, 2008 | 07:42 AM

#589

Vernon29RW

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From: Pat-Med, NY

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyboy2160

i applaud your quest for data, but without also getting the pressures, you can't draw the proper conclusions.

for instance, an i.c. that shows "better" cooling than another i.c. may negate the cooling density improvement by having a larger pressure drop.

I agree....Rob you need to do pressure and temp readings. I'm no genius when it comes to this stuff nor do I claim to be and I can fully relate to Rob's yearning for "real world" results of these IC's. People like us aren't looking for a 16 page scientific lab experiment findings. We want "lehmans" results because we are "lehmans" people. BUT only giving temp results are going to hide the truth of how the IC really is performing. What good is an IC that gets the incoming air ice cold but it also drops 10 psi!! what good is it?? see what you need to record pressure and I say your test will hold up against all the scrutinizers that lay ahead.

Steve

Jul 5, 2008 | 08:10 AM

#590

Intense

252whp 200trq RMW style

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From: Utah

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahamabart

I think we all need to go fishing and let Intense do his thing. This pre-humping
will just dilute the post-humping.

Intense when you are going to post your "experiences" pls start a new thread so we leave the pre-crap behind

I plan on making a new thread when I get my "test course" plotted out for you guys to look at. We'll use the new thread for suggestions and input for me.

I am going to plot out the course I'm driving with "data gathering points" along the route hopefully this weekend/first of next week. After I get that done I will throw it up here so you guys can give me input and suggestions.

I won't have the time to actually perform the tests until July 18th. That is the magical day that both me ad my friend thats helping can spend the time. We both have "wife approval" for that weekend

I would love to gather pressure information. I have asked several times how I can gather it and haven't heard from anyone. If it can be gathered from a Scanguage II I have one coming and it will be here next week. If I have to drill, cut or modify my engine to gather this info I might not be willing to do it. I guess need to hear from someone in the know exactly what I need to measure pressures

Rob

P.S. What happened to this page??? Everything is so wide left to right! Thats for the support everyone! I appreciate it

Jul 5, 2008 | 08:49 AM

#591

big howe

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Rob,

If I dare add my stupidity to the conversation

. For the pressure readings, realistically with what you have, no. A very crude way to do it would be when you collect your data points, look at the MAP reading on the scangauge and record that as well, but this needs to be tied pretty closely to what your TC recorder is recording(as in a time stamp). Also, these digital readouts jump around a bit, and can be hard to get a quick/accurate reading. The next step would be a MAP sensor after the intercooler recording full time right along side of the TC's. This would give absolutes which could be compared for each intercooler. You don't have this. Ideally, if another set of holes(besides TC holes, I know you are not drilling holes) were placed in the horns before and after the intercooler, you could record a differential pressure sensor to give very accurate readings of the pressure drop across each intercooler.

In a nutshell, unless you can time stamp pressure readings off the SG, you are not going to have much luck. With what M7 sent you, I'm not sure you have readout of the TC's, maybe it's just a logger without a display?

Jul 5, 2008 | 08:55 AM

#592

Revolution Mini Works

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Quote:

Originally Posted by blue al

because if their not going to invest their time and money to back up their own opinions, then its just hot air ....

seen a lot guys with big cv`s and a list of qualifications do some really dumb stuff

Al,
some of us have already tested them, it's for the rest of the community to now see the results. Maybe now you can see why us Yanks ran off and started our own country

Last edited by Revolution Mini Works; Jul 5, 2008 at 08:55 AM. Reason: spelling

Jul 5, 2008 | 09:36 AM

#593

Intense

252whp 200trq RMW style

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From: Utah

Quote:

Originally Posted by big howe

In a nutshell, unless you can time stamp pressure readings off the SG, you are not going to have much luck. With what M7 sent you, I'm not sure you have readout of the TC's, maybe it's just a logger without a display?

The logger I have actually runs on a computer. The sensors hook to a 10 channel box that then hook to a computer where the software is run.

It logs with a time stamp every time it does a measurement. We will be able to log a reading from the scanguage and attach it to a time stamp from the logger. We might be a second or two off with human error factored in tho.

Jul 5, 2008 | 09:42 AM

#594

big howe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Intense

It's better than nothing. One must be careful though that some of the differences in measurements, both in TC's and pressure readings, factored in with the human error may be small. This may fall within the margin of error and all be moot. There really is no telling until you gather data and take a close look at it.

Jul 5, 2008 | 09:59 AM

#595

stevecars60

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From: Northampton MA

Yes indeed, many have tested IC's on this board, with all kinds of numbers for various IC solutions. Dr Phil has gone a long way, collected lots of data & is still looking for answers.

There have been arguments for TE v boost & vice versa.

To date I'v had 4 ICs, all of which have some good & bad. In the end the IC on the car now works best for me but may not work for everyone - ulless you are looking for the least pressure loss & the largest area for packing ice & good highway performance ( less ice ).

Jan, we did run off 7 start our own country &, now, a new religion.... maybe not

Jul 5, 2008 | 10:07 AM

#596

Paul Webster

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From: Flitwick UK

Quote:

Originally Posted by big howe

Paul, I'm dying to get to the dragstrip, but I'm afraid I'll get one run and get sent home. Faster than 13.99 in the vert necessitates a roll cage in NHRA rules. But I'm anxious to see what the car will do.

Doooh, its taken me this long to figure out what to do, most racers when there car is faster than the rules allow will back off at the top end to keep there car over the specific rule, in your case 13.99.

So just race to the 1000ft as many times as you want, then when you're happy that you can run your fastetst time keep your foot in for that one time going below 13.99

It'll be intresting to see what IAT you can monitor going up the strip.

Jul 5, 2008 | 10:22 AM

#597

big howe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Webster

It'll be intresting to see what IAT you can monitor going up the strip.

I tested a temp sensor yesterday, not really the response time I would like. I don't like to many gadgets in the sequence, but there's not much choice. I'm looking at some .020" probe tips and maybe the AEM 4 CH amplifier to get an analog signal. Otherwise, I may just go an entire Innovate route, but I'll lose the Dashdyno functionality. Having bits and pieces of each so far, I'll see what looks more promising through some fact finding runs.

I never thought of letting off at the end, now that you say that it sort of jogs some memories from the old days at the strip. They have a test and tune night weekly here, I'll see if I can run up next week and see what it's about.

If I do push the 13.99, I'm not sure they will let me back for the rest of the summer.

Jul 5, 2008 | 10:36 AM

#598

stevecars60

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From: Northampton MA

Chances are very good they won't let you back without a cage. This is a big time safety issue with any of the sanctioning bodies.

Jul 5, 2008 | 10:41 AM

#599

big howe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by stevecars60

Chances are very good they won't let you back without a cage. This is a big time safety issue with any of the sanctioning bodies.

I thinking the best route is to visit Autopower for their input, have one shipped to me and give it to the local fabricators for the small modifications. I don't want to spend a week in SD waiting for the fab work.

Jul 5, 2008 | 10:59 AM

#600

stevecars60

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From: Northampton MA

Quote:

Originally Posted by big howe

No thinking here, I know you're right.

The Autopower is a pretty good piece for an "out of the can - just add water" install.

To have a cage fabed up you also need some finish work - just adds more time. A week is not enough unless you have a shop with more than 1 person to complete all the work. Even with a blue print a week would be pretty optimistic.

Best of for which ever way you go! All you guys live sooo far away.......