MTH - member to member support
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,068
Likes: 1
From: the great country of california
Originally Posted by warchieft2k
righ now im at work and i left the labtop at home... so i cant look again untill i get home.
but i saved to the desktop where i only have 4 things, my computer, my documents, my network place, and recycle bin....
and when i saved i had 5...
i also have the labtop set up where i can see hiden files.
do you think i should try again?
CArlos
but i saved to the desktop where i only have 4 things, my computer, my documents, my network place, and recycle bin....
and when i saved i had 5...
i also have the labtop set up where i can see hiden files.
do you think i should try again?
CArlos
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,068
Likes: 1
From: the great country of california
Originally Posted by webstrands
I have been unable to find a list of what mods the MTH flash makes. Do they change the red-line?
Coordinator :: Houston MINI Motoring Society
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 108
Likes: 3
From: Huntersville, NC
Originally Posted by webstrands
I have been unable to find a list of what mods the MTH flash makes. Do they change the red-line?
Franz needs to know your octane and the engine related mods you have.
4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted by dotBob
Franz needs to know your octane and the engine related mods you have.
3rd Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
From: Georgia
Originally Posted by minimonkey
So is the octane rating something I should have noted in the vehicle mods box - when I uploaded the files to him?
Coordinator :: Houston MINI Motoring Society
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 108
Likes: 3
From: Huntersville, NC
Originally Posted by minimonkey
So is the octane rating something I should have noted in the vehicle mods box - when I uploaded the files to him?
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 1
From: Florida
OK after farting around with this for the last 30 min, here's some tips on uploading the file.
Start your computer, THEN insert your cable, THEN start cartune, THEN plug your cable into the car, THEN turn the key to position 2, THEN do the car ID and upload. Any other order is screwy, at least on mine.
I reset the learing parameters, I'll hammer it on the way to work and see how it feels on the way home.
Start your computer, THEN insert your cable, THEN start cartune, THEN plug your cable into the car, THEN turn the key to position 2, THEN do the car ID and upload. Any other order is screwy, at least on mine.
I reset the learing parameters, I'll hammer it on the way to work and see how it feels on the way home.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,474
Likes: 3
From: Over there -->
MTH Dyno Feedback time...
I've had the MTH maps on my '04 JCW 210 for a number of months now and have recently used a dyno to evaluate performance; unfortunately I do not have any before & after data.
Just after the dyno session, I replaced the original MINI maps (V39.x w/JCW 210). I have been running on the original mapping for about a month now.
The Difference
The original JCW maps made the MCS quite strong in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range. The torque was strong, and very, very linear. As with the original MCS engine spec, the best performance was achieved by keeping the rps high.
Loading the MTH maps changed the character of the torque curve. The major difference is that it felt like MTH shifted the beginning of significant torque down the rpm band. I'd say that I felt that the magic number here would have been about 3200 rpm.
However, looking at the dyno graph, I see a significant building of torque beginning at about 2600 and peaking at 161 ft-lbs at about 4000 rpm, then leveling-off until about 4300 rpm. Then there is an interesting ~10 ft-lb "dip" in the torque curve at 4300 that gradually climbs back to the 157 ft-lb level at about 5100 rpm. Another dip begins at 5300 rpm to about 148 ft-lbs then remains level until just over 7000 rpm.
The Dips and the UNIchip
The dips are interesting and not what one might want to see in a finely tuned torque curve. Ideally, you would have a nice, steady arcing curve depicting near-maximum torque delivered over a wide rpm range. Can this be done on an MCS?
YES! The dyno session I attended was one of Randy Webb's Pulley Parties held at Yarrow MotorSport in RI. Evidently, Randy had spent some working on UNIchip mappings for an '04 or '05 MCS. Yarrow called-up the HP/Torque traces for this tuning and showed me what had been done. It was a classic, finely tuned torque curve; impressive to say the least!
Now I am not suggesting that a sub-$100 mapping file should produce results like a $800+ UNIchip/custom tuning effort would. In fact, I think that there is great value in the MTH product for those of us that don't compete on the track and just want to improve the "feel" of our cars.
The Air/Fuel Ratio
The dyno also showed some interesting behavior with the air/fuel ratio. In talking to Randy at Webb Motorsports and Ryan at Detroit Tuned, I have discovered that the optimum A/F ratio for performance in the MCS is about 11.5-12.0:1. Keeping this ratio as a constant across the RPM band will, theoretically, produce the best performance. Back to my dyno graph.
For two of the dyno pulls, an exhaust "sniffer" was used to plot my air/fuel ratio. The A/F ratio started at about 12.6:1 at 1700 rpm. There was a precipitous change between 1700 rpm and about 3600 rpm where the A/F ratio dropped to just under 10:1. At that level, the ECU went into "fuel dump" mode until 7000 rpm and a thin, gray puff of exhaust gas was seen.
This was contrasted with the A/F plot from a stock '04 MCS. The A/F ratio started at about the same point as mine. But the stock plot remained fairly level at about 12.6:1 until 2800 rpm. At that point, a very gradual drop in the ratio was seen between 2800 rpm to an A/F ratio of 10.8:1 at 6000 rpm. The stock ECU never went into fuel dump mode.
Evidently, it is not uncommon for the MINI folks to code the JCW A/F maps to hit fuel dump mode. So I belive this is a function of the JCW code rather than an influence of the MTH maps.
It should be noted that this fuel dump situation can be corrected to gain more low end torque and increase fuel efficiency, but requires a customizable product like the UNIchip for best results.
The Bottom Line
Well, I've decided to go with a UNIchip because I really want to carefuly tune my JCW for optimum performance. I know it's expensive, but I've been collecting discarded aluminum containers by the roadside for the last 15 years and I can't think of anything else to spend that money on!
However, I will be restoring my MTH maps to my MCS as soon as I can because I love the feeling of the shifted torque curve; for me it is more useful in everday driving. And for less than $100, I can't see why I'd want to be without it!
FWIW,
Theo
Just after the dyno session, I replaced the original MINI maps (V39.x w/JCW 210). I have been running on the original mapping for about a month now.
The Difference
The original JCW maps made the MCS quite strong in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range. The torque was strong, and very, very linear. As with the original MCS engine spec, the best performance was achieved by keeping the rps high.
Loading the MTH maps changed the character of the torque curve. The major difference is that it felt like MTH shifted the beginning of significant torque down the rpm band. I'd say that I felt that the magic number here would have been about 3200 rpm.
However, looking at the dyno graph, I see a significant building of torque beginning at about 2600 and peaking at 161 ft-lbs at about 4000 rpm, then leveling-off until about 4300 rpm. Then there is an interesting ~10 ft-lb "dip" in the torque curve at 4300 that gradually climbs back to the 157 ft-lb level at about 5100 rpm. Another dip begins at 5300 rpm to about 148 ft-lbs then remains level until just over 7000 rpm.
The Dips and the UNIchip
The dips are interesting and not what one might want to see in a finely tuned torque curve. Ideally, you would have a nice, steady arcing curve depicting near-maximum torque delivered over a wide rpm range. Can this be done on an MCS?
YES! The dyno session I attended was one of Randy Webb's Pulley Parties held at Yarrow MotorSport in RI. Evidently, Randy had spent some working on UNIchip mappings for an '04 or '05 MCS. Yarrow called-up the HP/Torque traces for this tuning and showed me what had been done. It was a classic, finely tuned torque curve; impressive to say the least!
Now I am not suggesting that a sub-$100 mapping file should produce results like a $800+ UNIchip/custom tuning effort would. In fact, I think that there is great value in the MTH product for those of us that don't compete on the track and just want to improve the "feel" of our cars.
The Air/Fuel Ratio
The dyno also showed some interesting behavior with the air/fuel ratio. In talking to Randy at Webb Motorsports and Ryan at Detroit Tuned, I have discovered that the optimum A/F ratio for performance in the MCS is about 11.5-12.0:1. Keeping this ratio as a constant across the RPM band will, theoretically, produce the best performance. Back to my dyno graph.
For two of the dyno pulls, an exhaust "sniffer" was used to plot my air/fuel ratio. The A/F ratio started at about 12.6:1 at 1700 rpm. There was a precipitous change between 1700 rpm and about 3600 rpm where the A/F ratio dropped to just under 10:1. At that level, the ECU went into "fuel dump" mode until 7000 rpm and a thin, gray puff of exhaust gas was seen.
This was contrasted with the A/F plot from a stock '04 MCS. The A/F ratio started at about the same point as mine. But the stock plot remained fairly level at about 12.6:1 until 2800 rpm. At that point, a very gradual drop in the ratio was seen between 2800 rpm to an A/F ratio of 10.8:1 at 6000 rpm. The stock ECU never went into fuel dump mode.
Evidently, it is not uncommon for the MINI folks to code the JCW A/F maps to hit fuel dump mode. So I belive this is a function of the JCW code rather than an influence of the MTH maps.
It should be noted that this fuel dump situation can be corrected to gain more low end torque and increase fuel efficiency, but requires a customizable product like the UNIchip for best results.
The Bottom Line
Well, I've decided to go with a UNIchip because I really want to carefuly tune my JCW for optimum performance. I know it's expensive, but I've been collecting discarded aluminum containers by the roadside for the last 15 years and I can't think of anything else to spend that money on!
However, I will be restoring my MTH maps to my MCS as soon as I can because I love the feeling of the shifted torque curve; for me it is more useful in everday driving. And for less than $100, I can't see why I'd want to be without it!
FWIW,
Theo
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 1
From: Florida
OMG I just had a nice huge response posted, and my browser loaded a new page - and lost it :( I hate that! OK, trying to remember it all...
First, the above poster is spot on. I just want to clear up some inaccurate postings and descriptions I have read. Like most accounts of the 15% pulley differences, most postings regarding the MTH are not accurate.
First, it is not smoother. I had asked several times and places for people's definition of 'smooth', and received none. I think what they were trying to describe is the change in the torque band.
Two things have happened that are very noticeable. The overall torque has increased - it feels more linear and flat as noted above. The most important change though is the change in torque band position. The torque that is availble stock at 3000, is now available from idle. The driveability is very different. I would estimate .1-.2 seconds 0-60 have been shaved off at the most. However having what feels like at least 2x the torque from idle - 3000 RPM available makes the driving technique and pleasure very much changed for the better!
When shifting before redline, or anytime your next gear change drops it below 3000, the car pulls much easier with the additional torque. It allows you to shift sooner, or skip more gears.
I notice a slight improvement in the upper RPMs, but nothing as dramatic as down below. The redline has increased 200.
Traction control is NOT less sensative as I've seen reported. What IS changed, is the way the engine responds to TC going off. Stock, the engine would pull power and limit throttle position just like someone was holding your foot back. If you had a slip, the engine would stay at a lower RPM until you lifted and reapplied, or traction was regained - this took seconds to happen, and the car felt as if it was just low on power. It was very smooth and instant, just slower.
With MTH, the TC trips in all the same spots as stock, and it happens just as easily. However, the throttle is not nearly as limited, nor is power pulled in the same way or amount. The wheels are allowed to slip, and you can feel it pull power in quick jerks, but this can continue all the way to redline if you do not lift. The car does accellerate faster in truely limited slip conditions, however on ice or other no-traction conditions, this means you will need to vary the throttle manually to help - as most other cars do with traction control. So while yes it helps performance on dry or limited slip conditions, it does greatly reduce the effectiveness of the TC system. However it is still as good as any other I have ever driven. In stock form, it was much more aggreesive than any I had driven. I prefer it in the current form, allowing me to have some control and more potential.
First, the above poster is spot on. I just want to clear up some inaccurate postings and descriptions I have read. Like most accounts of the 15% pulley differences, most postings regarding the MTH are not accurate.
First, it is not smoother. I had asked several times and places for people's definition of 'smooth', and received none. I think what they were trying to describe is the change in the torque band.
Two things have happened that are very noticeable. The overall torque has increased - it feels more linear and flat as noted above. The most important change though is the change in torque band position. The torque that is availble stock at 3000, is now available from idle. The driveability is very different. I would estimate .1-.2 seconds 0-60 have been shaved off at the most. However having what feels like at least 2x the torque from idle - 3000 RPM available makes the driving technique and pleasure very much changed for the better!
When shifting before redline, or anytime your next gear change drops it below 3000, the car pulls much easier with the additional torque. It allows you to shift sooner, or skip more gears.
I notice a slight improvement in the upper RPMs, but nothing as dramatic as down below. The redline has increased 200.
Traction control is NOT less sensative as I've seen reported. What IS changed, is the way the engine responds to TC going off. Stock, the engine would pull power and limit throttle position just like someone was holding your foot back. If you had a slip, the engine would stay at a lower RPM until you lifted and reapplied, or traction was regained - this took seconds to happen, and the car felt as if it was just low on power. It was very smooth and instant, just slower.
With MTH, the TC trips in all the same spots as stock, and it happens just as easily. However, the throttle is not nearly as limited, nor is power pulled in the same way or amount. The wheels are allowed to slip, and you can feel it pull power in quick jerks, but this can continue all the way to redline if you do not lift. The car does accellerate faster in truely limited slip conditions, however on ice or other no-traction conditions, this means you will need to vary the throttle manually to help - as most other cars do with traction control. So while yes it helps performance on dry or limited slip conditions, it does greatly reduce the effectiveness of the TC system. However it is still as good as any other I have ever driven. In stock form, it was much more aggreesive than any I had driven. I prefer it in the current form, allowing me to have some control and more potential.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 1
From: Florida
Oh, another tip for using the cable. I have 4 USB ports on my laptop, however only one of them works correctly with the cable. All 4 will recognize it, however only one will assign a serial port to it. I happen to plug into the correct port the first time, but used a different one to begin my upload session. After trying them all I discovered this.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
koopah,
Are you using the new "hot" map? My old mth was similar to your description, noticeable torque increase at mid range. Although the top end pulled better than stock, it felt like it was working hard to get to redline. The newest mth seems to have lost that mid range thump, but from 4-7200 rpm it pulls fast and very smooth. By smooth I mean literally smooth, the engine doesn't pulse or feel like it is working hard. And the missing midrange may have more to do with the way franz set up the throttle ratio, it stays at 30% until you floor it. The old file was very "snappy" in contrast, but still better than stock. So there may not be an actual loss of power, just feel.
The ASC now actually allows for some wheels spin, which really suprised me at first.
As for air fuel ratios, franz told me he prefers to keep them rich for safety, but he did send me a file marked "lean" ( I haven't tried it yet). My dyno runs showed really good air/fuel until about 5400rpm until 6400rpm. I was able to data log temps during the runs and they affect the ratio directly.
Dyno numbers, the old mth
I was suprised to hear that my car made the most power at a recent dyno day. Mine was the only one that had mth. I don't know what everyone else had that day, but one car had pulley. intake, exhaust ( like my set up), but with a header, big intercooler and the unichip.
I am posting this NOT to defend mth, but to let people know that claims of lost power, bad air/fuel, or dips in the power band might have more to do with how the car was dyno'd rather than poor mapping.
I will dyno the new maps soon and post the results.
Are you using the new "hot" map? My old mth was similar to your description, noticeable torque increase at mid range. Although the top end pulled better than stock, it felt like it was working hard to get to redline. The newest mth seems to have lost that mid range thump, but from 4-7200 rpm it pulls fast and very smooth. By smooth I mean literally smooth, the engine doesn't pulse or feel like it is working hard. And the missing midrange may have more to do with the way franz set up the throttle ratio, it stays at 30% until you floor it. The old file was very "snappy" in contrast, but still better than stock. So there may not be an actual loss of power, just feel.
The ASC now actually allows for some wheels spin, which really suprised me at first.
As for air fuel ratios, franz told me he prefers to keep them rich for safety, but he did send me a file marked "lean" ( I haven't tried it yet). My dyno runs showed really good air/fuel until about 5400rpm until 6400rpm. I was able to data log temps during the runs and they affect the ratio directly.
Dyno numbers, the old mth
I was suprised to hear that my car made the most power at a recent dyno day. Mine was the only one that had mth. I don't know what everyone else had that day, but one car had pulley. intake, exhaust ( like my set up), but with a header, big intercooler and the unichip.
I am posting this NOT to defend mth, but to let people know that claims of lost power, bad air/fuel, or dips in the power band might have more to do with how the car was dyno'd rather than poor mapping.
I will dyno the new maps soon and post the results.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 1
From: Florida
Well since my file was just delivered, yes I would assume it is the latest from him. I have no lag in power, the engine does not feel like it strugles at any RPM, nor has it done so from stock. It has never pulsed or run out of power. It's exactly as smooth as stock, and after each mod the power has only increased, and the RPM climb has quickened.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,474
Likes: 3
From: Over there -->
Originally Posted by 002
koopah,
Are you using the new "hot" map? ...{snip}
Are you using the new "hot" map? ...{snip}
Should I just ask Franz for the "Hot Map"? With fries?
Thanks,
Theo
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
From: Miami, FL
I got my files from Franz yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Finally!
After about 5 days of waiting (I was going crazy) I got the files and I loaded them the minute I got the email.
Wow! I don’t think you can get anything that will give you as much as an improvement for $75...
Here is what I feel different...
1. Gear shifting... big difference it works smooth now.
2. Torque... now I got more torque at low RPM that ever! I can feel the gain since about 1500 RPM
3. My redline is been decrease about 100 RPM my rev limiter kicks in about 6900 RPM now... (I got the 19% pulley I guess this is to be safe, but trust me it does need to go any higher at about 5k RPM the car is going insane!)
4. My DSC is a lot loser now! It actually lets me spin a little. (I always have it off… but in case I forget one day to disable it)
5. Power gain over the entire RPM range! Specially from 3500 to 6000 RPM.
6. I don’t have a top speed limit!
7. And most important! I super happy with the results....
I can’t believe I didn’t do this any sooner!
Carlos
After about 5 days of waiting (I was going crazy) I got the files and I loaded them the minute I got the email.
Wow! I don’t think you can get anything that will give you as much as an improvement for $75...
Here is what I feel different...
1. Gear shifting... big difference it works smooth now.
2. Torque... now I got more torque at low RPM that ever! I can feel the gain since about 1500 RPM
3. My redline is been decrease about 100 RPM my rev limiter kicks in about 6900 RPM now... (I got the 19% pulley I guess this is to be safe, but trust me it does need to go any higher at about 5k RPM the car is going insane!)
4. My DSC is a lot loser now! It actually lets me spin a little. (I always have it off… but in case I forget one day to disable it)
5. Power gain over the entire RPM range! Specially from 3500 to 6000 RPM.
6. I don’t have a top speed limit!
7. And most important! I super happy with the results....
I can’t believe I didn’t do this any sooner!
Carlos
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 30
From: Quebec City, Qc
Has anyone tried the new MTH race map?
Franz did this file for the Challenge MINI... He doesn't use the 02 sensor so it is not legal, at least for emission tests!
It is supposed to free up to 10hp on mid-RPM range with the "02 sensor bypass", from Franz's email to another MTH user...
I asked Franz for this file last evening, and I'm looking foward to upload it this weekend.
Anyone tried it yet?
Franz did this file for the Challenge MINI... He doesn't use the 02 sensor so it is not legal, at least for emission tests!
It is supposed to free up to 10hp on mid-RPM range with the "02 sensor bypass", from Franz's email to another MTH user...
I asked Franz for this file last evening, and I'm looking foward to upload it this weekend.
Anyone tried it yet?
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
From: Miami, FL
Originally Posted by DarkMiniCooperS
Has anyone tried the new MTH race map?
Franz did this file for the Challenge MINI... He doesn't use the 02 sensor so it is not legal, at least for emission tests!
It is supposed to free up to 10hp on mid-RPM range with the "02 sensor bypass", from Franz's email to another MTH user...
I asked Franz for this file last evening, and I'm looking foward to upload it this weekend.
Anyone tried it yet?
Franz did this file for the Challenge MINI... He doesn't use the 02 sensor so it is not legal, at least for emission tests!
It is supposed to free up to 10hp on mid-RPM range with the "02 sensor bypass", from Franz's email to another MTH user...
I asked Franz for this file last evening, and I'm looking foward to upload it this weekend.
Anyone tried it yet?
you list your mods and then specificaly ask for the race version?
thanks
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 551
Likes: 1
From: Santa Ana, CA
Emergency! car is comatose
immediately upon start of upload I got some error message and process stopped. Now the adaptor is not recognized, ECU is not recognized, can't upload/download - nothing.
And, car is Dead.
Anyone in/near Santa Ana with laptop and cable who can help me? Please call
714-225-7878 (cell)
And, car is Dead.
Anyone in/near Santa Ana with laptop and cable who can help me? Please call
714-225-7878 (cell)
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
Has anyone helped you yet? Have you flashed with it before and had it work? If not then you made need to turn off other programs like virus scan or wireless networks. That last one has gotten me a couple of times. It's pretty scarey, but once you have the parameters set It should load fine.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 1
From: Florida
Make sure you go in this order:
car off. computer on, cable unplugged from computer. plug cable into car, make sure led on plug goes green. plug into computer, let it recognize. If it doesn't recognize, try other usb ports, only one of my 4 work properly with the cable. now with it connected, turn the car to on. start procedures, making sure to put in your keycode to upload. If you get a failure, try the other usb ports in this sequence again.
car off. computer on, cable unplugged from computer. plug cable into car, make sure led on plug goes green. plug into computer, let it recognize. If it doesn't recognize, try other usb ports, only one of my 4 work properly with the cable. now with it connected, turn the car to on. start procedures, making sure to put in your keycode to upload. If you get a failure, try the other usb ports in this sequence again.