I have watched this thread since its inception (Oct 5, 2004) and have been perplexed by one glaring exception---no data to back up all the performance claims!!!---and no product for sale to all the potential buyers.

One possible explanation is that after all the hype, M7 has not been able to validate all the implied gains attributed to this new system. Knowing that some very smart people are waiting to test this product could offer a very reasonable explaination as to why we have not seen a product for distribution after all this time.

No data!!----No product!!---Vaporware!!!!

I can understand production problems---etc-- but I would have expected prototype data to validate a production decision----the lack of this data and sharing it forces me to suspect M7 of unsubstantiated new concept enthusiasm.

 

To those of you that understand some of the processes involved I say thank you. This has been a on going battle for way too long.If you go back to the start of this entire thread you will see that we were more or less dragged into talking about this before we really wanted to.That said I will be showing the three main components this weekend at the Vegas Mini Meet. On display will be the air gain tube itself, the heat sheild and the still warm from the oven custom filter. When I get back from the show we will go into the final test stage.
Randy
M7 Tuning

 

I do hope that someone attending this event has a digital camera, so us right-coasters can partake of the droolfest too! :smile:

 

Randy, congrats on getting the filter in time for Vegas. I hope there will be some pictures from Vegas, since there will be much more to see than just the AGS (wink, wink). Drive safely and have some fun!

 

so what's the delay really about? air filter? wiring harness? whether it works? for a $300 item it seems to have its development problems, eh?

 

if your willing to show it, we are willing to look at it

so lets see it man

 

For such a technically astute guy as your self JLM, I would say look at your own promises of fabulous products that never materialized.


Here's the link https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...72&postcount=1

If anyone on the board knows what it takes to make a product a reality it should be you.......seriously

Peter
Team M7
562-608-8123

 

I was just thinking that to myself. John, I'd really love to test out your tensioner whenever you get it finished up.

I'm also eagerly awaiting testing M7's AGS!

Test test test!

 

are you seriously comparing my piddling attempt to deal with the tensioner to the amount of work, design, patent and carb approval that has gone into the AGS?


Well here is the skinny: I haven't had the time to deal with it.

I consider this from M7 to be a cheap shot: "For such a technically astute guy as your self JLM, I would say look at your own promises of fabulous products that never materialized."

what...I can't ask you about the problems that are causing delays without that kind of response?

 

John it was a typical......and expected post from the usual suspects...
Dig in and see what crap we can unload on M7.

You are busy, I am busy, you promised a product in two weeks, that was in August and here we are Seven months later bitching at me, that the product isn't coming out fast enough. At least were showing the AGS at the
Las Vegas get together this weekend and that's more than you can say about your idler arm "Project".

sincerely

peter
Team M7

562-608-8123

 

Youch! Peter burned ya pretty good there, John. I think there are valuable lessons here for all vendors:

Don't promise a date when something will become available. Inevitably, there are delays and otherwise happy potential customers become unhappy:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...72&postcount=1

Don't publicly discourage potential customers from buying competitors products under the premise that yours will "will kick all the other systems ****"
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...&postcount=192

Don't make objective performance claims if you either don't have the data or are unwilling to back them up.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...&postcount=152

Don't talk yourself into a corner by making statements that are easily "diffuted"
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...53&postcount=4

 

Peter of M7 is working on other projects, and one that comes to mind is "bigger" than this one, IMO. Yet, by design, he has not started threads on that, or other topics. As shared, word got out much earlier than what he would have liked on this one, and he's been having to deal with it...

Nowhere here did he, nor anyone from M7, promise a delivery date. About the closest thing I saw to a commit date was when a NAM member was told that he would have it by a certain time. Peter had mentioned that if all goes well, he would have it completed by that time. Obviously, not all has gone perfectly. Complicating manufacturing issues is that this project is tied into other concurrent project testing. A detailed public explanation of all the pariticulars might not be in M7's best interest, and probably many wouldn't want to hear such stuff anyway...

I don't see where Alta, Rogue, Mania or any other manufactuer/vendors provide flow numbers (intakes), and other such data as it relates to performance. Yet they will of course say how wonderful their intake is... They might state the virtues that make their system good, or unique, and leave it at that, which is fine. M7 can, and should only do the same, I feel. I think the original plan was to share such numbers, and how they relate to other aftermkt options. Seeing how NAM treats those who release numbers, to do so, and on top of that also for the competetion, is just foolish I feel; at least in this environment...

We've been driving the vendors away from frequenting the boards (obvious to some), and hopefully not away from serving us (maybe not so obvious)...

I can drive and enjoy my MCS as I wait for the AGS. I have no down-time involved. And if one must get something immediately, if that's critical, then this is one less option to ponder. Buy it and be happy, or wait to consider this one.

 

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...4&postcount=13

Numbers are bad. Got it.

 

Although you do make a good point, jlm's post was in November, not August.

 

Anthony:

Don't try to mediate here Cafone - reading these little slap fights is better than any TV on nowadays (well, with the exception of LOST). If you ever succeed in getting people to stop being snarky with the vendors and enjoy their cars, you will ruin my evenings!

I really look forward to coming home, eating dinner, putting the kids to bed and then sitting by the warm glow of the computer and getting my fill of the pure sassiness of this forum!

My prediction: When Peter does finish testing and dynoing the AGS, someone here will:

a) Complain about the type of dyno used,
b) Complain about the units of measurement,
c) Complain about the font the results are posted in,
d) Take a pot shot at Webb (even though it's not his product),
e) Take a pot shot at Pilo (even though it's not his product either),
f) Claim the numbers are fake,
g) Accept the numbers but say the bang for the buck quotient is less than addding a 19% pulley and larger injectors,
e) Point out someone's spelling and grammar usage errors (hint: I don't think sassiness is a word - or is it?).

See you in a couple of weeks, my friend.

P.S.: Next time you talk to Webb or Horvath, tell them that even though it's bad business to do so, that this little soap opera only gets interesting when they actually retaliate.

Watching people spend time pulling 6 month-old quotes out of the air to prove a point on a car forum is too frigging hilarious.

Toodles!

 

^^^^
I just wet my pants!
Thanks Skip for the great laugh.

 

If you read my posts in this thread, I've given M7 a bit of a hard time every now and then. But they posted on their website, promised that the product would deliver by Christmass etc. The truth is they screwed the pooch when it came to the marketing launch of this product. Stuff happens, yes, but M7, you're the guys who kept saying "soon" instead of "M7 makes no comments on unreleased products". All the Mini drivers who kept talking about the stuff in development THOUGHT they were helping, but they just stoked the fires of conjecture.

From where I sit, M7 owes JLM an apology, as that was a shot below the belt.

In all the test hardware that's been made, SOME numbers had to be created, none posted. No flow bench number (even from beta product), nothing but claims of revolutionary innovation, in what is basically a more optimized passive flow path. So the ENTIRE community has had nothing but smoke and mirrors to eat way to long!!!!

Just my thoughts....

Matt

 

You got me there. I didn't recall that one...

So, like many other vendors, M7 has fallen short on a release date. And this has been due to not lack of effort or time-dedication, but factors out of his control. We can provide a butt-load of links to threads about products that were released months, or even much later. A 2+ year GIAC wait comes to mind. Some of these were even initiated by the vendor.

Again, the AGS discussion was started by someone else. Peter had conceived this idea nearly this time last year, and ran with a prototype last Summer. Someone sees it, word spreads, and it becomes a thread before he would ideally like to start discussing it, at least publicly.

Some will say, well, he mentioned it on his website a few months back. Heck, that doesn't mean he wants to discuss it anymore than what he provides in that release. I was on the Sony Ericscson website today, and they got some stuff mentioned there (3 "phones") that are slated to come-out 'later this year.' This is a common practice for many companies, and again, as I stated before, as a consumer, I like to know what's in the works. I'm going to hold-off and wait for a particular Sony Ericcson phone, as time is not of the essence for me; for others it might be. I appreciate being able to make informed decisions. And if there are delays, I contact the source directly...

[/QUOTE]Numbers are bad. Got it. [/QUOTE]
Here, on NAM, for a vendor to release them... heck, I wouldn't; or at least some bare minimum. Numbers, if everyone did, then yes... sure, I guess. How one gets the numbers, the equipment used, how they are depicted, what's selectively provided (and not), the environment, the ability and desire to fudge, or careless errors are just some of the short-comings we've seen in these rat hole discussions...

A third party, controlled situation in which all items are tested together would be very much desired. I would LOVE numbers like that! Not likely though...

And if we can't have that, I would rather then understand the concepts or rationale as to why one thinks their product excels.

 

By now all you Vendors should know that we have nothing but time on our hands to discredit, discourage, discombobulate and generally just plain diss your ideas and your claims.

Some of us remember well our college courses in kinematics, thermodynamics, physical chemistry, fluids and materials engineering.

...........Well, let me amend that - I remember enough big scientific words to make it look like I understand the science behind what you're doing. Plus the fact that you all usually politely just humor our attempts to kick sand in you collective faces means that we'll rarely ever be called on to back up our dissection of your products.

You have been warned!

 

Good Night....

peter
Team M7

 

Skiploder, good to "see" ya. Witty as always...

Between the communications directed my way, and the many emails, PMs, and phone calls of support Peter and Randy have received, quite a few folks have come to the conclusion that the quest for numbers is often just a bunch of BS, and often just a guise to attack the vendor of the day.

Heck, I cringe when I see Pilo use the pronoun (we) . I love hearing Randy talk about the personalites here! The abuse and harasssment can be so predictable, we often take friendly wagers to see who will be first on the warpath. There is clearly intent involved, motives, agendas, etc... The powers that be here on NAM know it, and for that reason threads dissappear on occassion, and people are spoken to...

Let's say a vendor states that he will have something ready to ship on specific date, and it doesn't happen, for whatever reason. We all know it, yet some here feel so compelled to remind us, and several times over. Why? We all can read, understand, and base decisions. Yet, we must be reminded though... The reason being... to make that vendor look bad. See an opportunity, take it!

Peter didn't approach jlm publicly in his thread that was recently revived about his delayed product. He didn't do so out of respect, and common courtesy; as he would appreciate the same. I chose to PM jlm on it some time ago as to not draw any unwanted attention his way. The stirring-up of things here obviously did not meet the same level of compassion, sadly. Yet Peter owes jlm an apology... Makes sense to me .

For a $20k car, we probably have one the most sophisticated, intellectual and well-educated forums around! Behind it all, childish like behavior is being seen for what it is. Screw the frickin' numbers. Show some deceny and civility. Without that, we have nothing...

 

my question was simply: what is holding up the AGS development: air filter, wiring harness, not making the numbers? and the comment that a $300 product has its development problems.

read into it what you want. seems like there are a few who are trolling for trouble and can find it anywhere. just don't confuse my honest question with your own hangups.

I was asked to change my status to vendor because I posted that bit about developing the tensioner last august and apparently Mark got complaints from other vendors. Frankly, 99% of my posts have nothing to do with my vending, so using me as an example in a vendor cat fight is a joke. At least I now help support the forum financially and am glad to do it.

 

Bah! Alright, you got me. My life's a little different, I got the Navy filing mine, and the rules are slightly different. Did my research, and you win...mostly.

Oh, except that a provisional patent doesn't last for twleve months, the patent pending status you recieve from filing the provisional expires in twelve months if you have no filed the full patent application by that time. Small thing, but maybe important, maybe not?

 

Wow, you are a terrible person, trying to be helpful and all...

 

jlm has been nothing but helpful to me in a multitude of threads, and emails over the past couple of years. I have always been appreciative of his time, and thankful to have access to his knowledge. I can differentiate that from what I see here, and elsewhere though...

Peter and/or Randy of M7 have shared on a few occassions with us the reasons for the delay. And on the post just before jlm's inquiry, Randy shares that the filter is 'hot off the press' or recently done. That would certainly hold things up...

Simply asking might go something like this:

What is currently making for the delay in completion?

Again, reasons have been provided throughout this thread... but that would be a simple, straight-forward question, albeit repetitive.

Here's one laiden with negative undercurrents:

so what's the delay really about? air filter? wiring harness? whether it works? for a $300 item it seems to have its development problems, eh?

Certainly not so simple...

After being provided reasons for the delay, asking what the delay is really about calls into question the truthfulness of M7. Who wants to work with a vendor who lies?! Well, that's essentially the accusation. And for those who can't guess as to what the real reason might be, a subtle hint is that maybe it doesn't work as expected. The price of the item does not always reflect the intricacy involved, and concluding a question with something like "eh" is generally read as condescending...

It wasn't just simply a question.

I encourage all vendors and all MINI enthusiasts to be creative, and to bring new products to market. I support them all, particulary the ones I've forged a strong relationship. And I don't do so by attempting to make others look bad, a la negative campaigning.

This doesn't mean that I don't ask questions, as I want to know the details as to why something works. I want to know the answers before I put something on my MCS, like a lightweight damper replacement pulley (not "sold" on this one quite yet, but it is interesting).

This thread is about a sneak peek into the AGS. Photos and information have been provided. And this weekend, for some, they will get to see more. Let's keep this on track. It's not worth my time to respond to anything other than just that - the topic.