Drivetrain M7 Air Gain System... Sneak Peek
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
negative undercurrents? sounds like you've been trying to figure out the powerline riddle, he, he.
I would admit to some skepticism...especially considering the history of a few other M7 items and that is the history he created.
for your reading pleasure, all from this thread:
"CARB approval is of highest importance for M7, and a system will be delivered
with the necessary paperworks in the next week or two. 12/30
The small but very effective changes that was made, has not slowed down
the process of finishing the product. We are on top of the problems 1/18
Just got back from the plastic company, and the mold is ready for a new testrun by early next week, if everything fits correctly with no issues
I should be able to start some testing/Dynoruns right away.
As for delivery of parts to the Mini community, I'm cautiously optimistic of deliveries in the end of the month.... 1/20
No Need to hold breath much longer.......yes the parts are comming in fast and furious....and we will have a huge surprise very soon 2/5
Here's the lowdown on the M7 AGS project......
1. AGS tube done.
2. Filter system, we should get final production parts late this week.
3. Custom heatshield done tomorrow.
4. Name plaque, with window for carb cert#, done.
5. All the periferall hardware, hoses, connectors and clamps, done.
This week we are also doing dyno runs on the system, to find out
excactly what to expect out of the "Air Gain System" we will let you know
asap 2/7
Here's the latest...
The hold up is in the Filter manufacturing, and that's it, we will have the
first article out very very soon for test fit, so hang tight.....2/15
If you go back to the start of this entire thread you will see that we were more or less dragged into talking about this before we really wanted to.That said I will be showing the three main components this weekend at the Vegas Mini Meet. On display will be the air gain tube itself, the heat sheild and the still warm from the oven custom filter. When I get back from the show we will go into the final test stage. 3/3"
as far as staging replies: a simple enough reply could have been
"we've had a variety of problems, some including the issues you mentioned, but they are getting worked out. I wish I could predict the schedule better..., etc"
instead I get the cheap shot.
I would admit to some skepticism...especially considering the history of a few other M7 items and that is the history he created.
for your reading pleasure, all from this thread:
"CARB approval is of highest importance for M7, and a system will be delivered
with the necessary paperworks in the next week or two. 12/30
The small but very effective changes that was made, has not slowed down
the process of finishing the product. We are on top of the problems 1/18
Just got back from the plastic company, and the mold is ready for a new testrun by early next week, if everything fits correctly with no issues
I should be able to start some testing/Dynoruns right away.
As for delivery of parts to the Mini community, I'm cautiously optimistic of deliveries in the end of the month.... 1/20
No Need to hold breath much longer.......yes the parts are comming in fast and furious....and we will have a huge surprise very soon 2/5
Here's the lowdown on the M7 AGS project......
1. AGS tube done.
2. Filter system, we should get final production parts late this week.
3. Custom heatshield done tomorrow.
4. Name plaque, with window for carb cert#, done.
5. All the periferall hardware, hoses, connectors and clamps, done.
This week we are also doing dyno runs on the system, to find out
excactly what to expect out of the "Air Gain System" we will let you know
asap 2/7
Here's the latest...
The hold up is in the Filter manufacturing, and that's it, we will have the
first article out very very soon for test fit, so hang tight.....2/15
If you go back to the start of this entire thread you will see that we were more or less dragged into talking about this before we really wanted to.That said I will be showing the three main components this weekend at the Vegas Mini Meet. On display will be the air gain tube itself, the heat sheild and the still warm from the oven custom filter. When I get back from the show we will go into the final test stage. 3/3"
as far as staging replies: a simple enough reply could have been
"we've had a variety of problems, some including the issues you mentioned, but they are getting worked out. I wish I could predict the schedule better..., etc"
instead I get the cheap shot.
Last edited by jlm; Mar 4, 2005 at 11:54 AM.
Thread Starter
|
Former Vendor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,594
Likes: 2
From: los angeles
John don't even go there,the delivery of the AGS is up to my sole discretion
and none of yours.
Your inappropriate Negative post had one and only one reason to be there....to insight bad feelings, questions, and taking potshots at M7....
When the AGS is 100% finished, and Randy and I decide to release it, then and only then will it be available, no pressure from you or anyone else will change that.....
If you ever took the time to look at what we are doing, or even call us
for the latest we are working on, you would find that the AGS is only one in many projects that we are tide up with....but I forgot your to busy
Please stop this , I can show you, what you said, at what time in what thread
with a sprinkle of let's use the same acronyms and verbage as M7 to
**** em of (Not you JLM)......
peter
Team M7
562-608-8123
and none of yours.
Your inappropriate Negative post had one and only one reason to be there....to insight bad feelings, questions, and taking potshots at M7....
When the AGS is 100% finished, and Randy and I decide to release it, then and only then will it be available, no pressure from you or anyone else will change that.....
If you ever took the time to look at what we are doing, or even call us
for the latest we are working on, you would find that the AGS is only one in many projects that we are tide up with....but I forgot your to busy
Please stop this , I can show you, what you said, at what time in what thread
with a sprinkle of let's use the same acronyms and verbage as M7 to
**** em of (Not you JLM)......
peter
Team M7
562-608-8123
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
if you don't want skepticism, don't make posts like the ones quoted and then not come through. Whenever I paraphrased your statements in another context...I recall a nudge or two where I said "We patent it because we can"; recall that was your stingy response when I asked what was patentable about the AGS. fair question, stingy response.
finally, what exactly is wrong with wanting to know what is really causing the delay, especially in light of the above chain of quotes? my question has nothing to do with challenging your discretion. I note that you still didn't attempt to answer it.
finally, what exactly is wrong with wanting to know what is really causing the delay, especially in light of the above chain of quotes? my question has nothing to do with challenging your discretion. I note that you still didn't attempt to answer it.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,816
Likes: 2
From: New Jersey
There is also this benefit in brag, that the speaker is unconsciously expressing his own ideal. Humor him by all means, draw it all out, and hold him to it. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I've never spoken to Peter but I hear he's an incredibly charismatic individual who loves to talk. That said, m7 needs to keep their cards closer to their vest or people here are going to continually ask them to put their cards on the table. This isnt a dig, just a constructive criticism. I'm looking forward to seeing the AGS complete and looking forward to the test results. Keep innovating.
--
Cheese
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,664
Likes: 1
From: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by macncheese
[center][i]m7 needs to keep their cards closer to their vest or people here are going to continually ask them to put their cards on the table. This isnt a dig, just a constructive criticism. I'm looking forward to seeing the AGS complete and looking forward to the test results. Keep innovating.[/left]
--
Cheese
. Hopefully this weekend will put some questions to rest.
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 418
Likes: 0
From: Indiana
I'm all for defending yourselves, as vendors, but I have to say that I have avoided some of you due to your customer relations and spent my money elsewhere.
I'm astonished some of you have stayed in business with the types of posts I have read here and elsewhere (and I include all vendors who participate in these pissing matches).
I'm astonished some of you have stayed in business with the types of posts I have read here and elsewhere (and I include all vendors who participate in these pissing matches).
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 109
Likes: 2
From: work
Originally Posted by SwingMCS03
I'm all for defending yourselves, as vendors, but I have to say that I have avoided some of you due to your customer relations and spent my money elsewhere.
I'm astonished some of you have stayed in business with the types of posts I have read here and elsewhere (and I include all vendors who participate in these pissing matches).
I'm astonished some of you have stayed in business with the types of posts I have read here and elsewhere (and I include all vendors who participate in these pissing matches).
The way it works in my industry...
I work in a company (MKS Instruments ) that is (mostly) and OEM supplier to the capital equipment companies in the semiconductor industry. Here's how product releases work for us (ideally that is).
Market Research: Either formal or informal, to find out what is needed. Sometimes we do formal market specification (bigger projects), sometimes we don't (smaller projects or product enhancements). Either way, this is where we define the target. No talking to customers yet! (maybe very very special one or two, but at this stage, IP is still being developed, so any discussions are covered by non-disclosure agrements.)
R&D > Concept and Feasibility (these ofter blur): Can we do it? Here's where we learn what it takes to do the job, and from this, we can estimate manufacturing costs and the like. Any outside contact is still coverred by NDA.
Alpha prototypes. These are defined to be any product that isn't built by transfer engineering (they set up the efficient handling of materials, build processes and stations, test facitities and the like. They are not involved in volume manufacturing.), Production Engineering (they guys who run production) or production. So any hack prototype is done here. This is also where alpha specifcations are created (subject to revision). At this point we talk to more customer, still covered by NDA. these products SHOULD NEVER GO TO CUSTOMERS (and the last two product launches that I've been around that did got burned bad!)
Beta Prototypes are produced by the manufactuing department, with help from the designers or transition engineering. These can go to key customers for eval, and accelerated lifetime testing, CE etc certification etc. Still covered by NDA. Specification sheets are done (beta, still subject to revision based on field and certification testing. If you don't meet CE, no shipping to EU countries, so you have to fix it! These cannot be sold, and are all our property, and become returned (you don't want anyone to do final release design and test with prototypes, pisses off Intel real bad!)
Pre-production. These are the unit first built by volume manufacturing, during some production training. They can only be sold if they pass all Q/C testing and inspection. Recertification is done here, if any corrective action was required based on test of the beta products.
Release to production/release to sales. All production is by the volume production team (read lowest cost labor needed to do the job with quality) and marketing and sales colatoral is out,if not released earlier. Relase to sales may happen before volume manufacturing, if buying cycles are very long (like capital equiment and expensive stuff that needs lots of managment approval).
Sometime during the Beta program the marketing campaign starts. Timing depends on price, product lifetime and a whole bunch of other stuff. Even the customers product life cycles. We have to be in phase otherwise we may release product right after our customer freezes a design for production release. Then no money until the next design round. This would be very very bad......
To contrast the AGS with MKS flow,
1) Early prototype shown in public too early. Nice thing to do, but invites things just like this. MKS would have bound all outside parties by NDA. For the AGS, it all started here.
2) No Beta Specs. Industry couldn't operate without them. We have to align our products with our customers needs BEFORE they are finished, the only way to do this is to DISCUSS what we have, and they share their needs, Our products (and thier needs) evolve towards a common target. There should have been no problem to post some flow numbers from early product, relative to the parts they replace, subject to revision. (for the person who stated that this isn't worth the time because it's too hard to quote meaningful numbers must never have looked at intake and exhaust flow numbers, or HP and Torque number, simply state test conditions and equipment, and let the numbers stand). Care must be taken here, as one has to be pretty close to an evolved product, or if there are changes, the threshold for thier justification is higher, as expectations have been defined.
3) Project management. The timeline for these things has to be pretty well controlled.
All that being said, MKS is a $300M-$600M a year company in revenue, and this is all we do. M7 is a smaller shop, so schedules are harder to manage, vendors blow you off for bigger fish, etc. And it is true that is up to the guys at M7 to do whatever they want. No argument there. But It's also no surprise that some people's patience has worn thin, and I'm sure that some potential customer (and future customers too) are disipointed at the delays.
The arguments don't help. And also the loose comments and promises that M7 didn't have the control over to keep didn't help either.
All this being said (and yes, I've been told I'm a wordy guy
) I'm a bit dissapointed there are no preliminary numbers, and that the delays are what they are. But all that being said, and with my previous post about the nature of passive systems, I think this SOUNDS like it should be a nice improvement, and for the price, with the TB, seems to be reasonably priced. I'll just drive around with my little HAI, and wait until the release comes and some numbers come.
Data driven decisions. A good way to go.
Matt
Market Research: Either formal or informal, to find out what is needed. Sometimes we do formal market specification (bigger projects), sometimes we don't (smaller projects or product enhancements). Either way, this is where we define the target. No talking to customers yet! (maybe very very special one or two, but at this stage, IP is still being developed, so any discussions are covered by non-disclosure agrements.)
R&D > Concept and Feasibility (these ofter blur): Can we do it? Here's where we learn what it takes to do the job, and from this, we can estimate manufacturing costs and the like. Any outside contact is still coverred by NDA.
Alpha prototypes. These are defined to be any product that isn't built by transfer engineering (they set up the efficient handling of materials, build processes and stations, test facitities and the like. They are not involved in volume manufacturing.), Production Engineering (they guys who run production) or production. So any hack prototype is done here. This is also where alpha specifcations are created (subject to revision). At this point we talk to more customer, still covered by NDA. these products SHOULD NEVER GO TO CUSTOMERS (and the last two product launches that I've been around that did got burned bad!)
Beta Prototypes are produced by the manufactuing department, with help from the designers or transition engineering. These can go to key customers for eval, and accelerated lifetime testing, CE etc certification etc. Still covered by NDA. Specification sheets are done (beta, still subject to revision based on field and certification testing. If you don't meet CE, no shipping to EU countries, so you have to fix it! These cannot be sold, and are all our property, and become returned (you don't want anyone to do final release design and test with prototypes, pisses off Intel real bad!)
Pre-production. These are the unit first built by volume manufacturing, during some production training. They can only be sold if they pass all Q/C testing and inspection. Recertification is done here, if any corrective action was required based on test of the beta products.
Release to production/release to sales. All production is by the volume production team (read lowest cost labor needed to do the job with quality) and marketing and sales colatoral is out,if not released earlier. Relase to sales may happen before volume manufacturing, if buying cycles are very long (like capital equiment and expensive stuff that needs lots of managment approval).
Sometime during the Beta program the marketing campaign starts. Timing depends on price, product lifetime and a whole bunch of other stuff. Even the customers product life cycles. We have to be in phase otherwise we may release product right after our customer freezes a design for production release. Then no money until the next design round. This would be very very bad......
To contrast the AGS with MKS flow,
1) Early prototype shown in public too early. Nice thing to do, but invites things just like this. MKS would have bound all outside parties by NDA. For the AGS, it all started here.
2) No Beta Specs. Industry couldn't operate without them. We have to align our products with our customers needs BEFORE they are finished, the only way to do this is to DISCUSS what we have, and they share their needs, Our products (and thier needs) evolve towards a common target. There should have been no problem to post some flow numbers from early product, relative to the parts they replace, subject to revision. (for the person who stated that this isn't worth the time because it's too hard to quote meaningful numbers must never have looked at intake and exhaust flow numbers, or HP and Torque number, simply state test conditions and equipment, and let the numbers stand). Care must be taken here, as one has to be pretty close to an evolved product, or if there are changes, the threshold for thier justification is higher, as expectations have been defined.
3) Project management. The timeline for these things has to be pretty well controlled.
All that being said, MKS is a $300M-$600M a year company in revenue, and this is all we do. M7 is a smaller shop, so schedules are harder to manage, vendors blow you off for bigger fish, etc. And it is true that is up to the guys at M7 to do whatever they want. No argument there. But It's also no surprise that some people's patience has worn thin, and I'm sure that some potential customer (and future customers too) are disipointed at the delays.
The arguments don't help. And also the loose comments and promises that M7 didn't have the control over to keep didn't help either.
All this being said (and yes, I've been told I'm a wordy guy
) I'm a bit dissapointed there are no preliminary numbers, and that the delays are what they are. But all that being said, and with my previous post about the nature of passive systems, I think this SOUNDS like it should be a nice improvement, and for the price, with the TB, seems to be reasonably priced. I'll just drive around with my little HAI, and wait until the release comes and some numbers come.Data driven decisions. A good way to go.
Matt
4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 448
Likes: 0
From: Frederick, MD
Thanks, Matt, for the constructive comments. That has to be the longest drama-free stretch of text on the last several pages of this thread.
Verbose is OK with me. Once I get on a roll, I can't shut up either. I suspect that if things were tracked based on total word count rather than number of discrete posts, I'd be in 6th gear now! 
Personally, I'm glad that the vendors on this site are willing to let us in on some of their upcoming developments. As a result of things I've read here, I have a small list of items I've been waiting to see "coalesce from the vapor," and these are from a wide range of vendors- from where I stand, no one has a monopoly on long wait times for product releases, and poking people in the eye over perceived delays gains nothing for anyone. Personally, I am glad to be furnished with advance product information by the vendors who serve our community, even if it is frustrating to wait for those items once the cat's out of the bag!
I'd rather be in the loop than in the dark.
Regards,
Brian
Verbose is OK with me. Once I get on a roll, I can't shut up either.
I suspect that if things were tracked based on total word count rather than number of discrete posts, I'd be in 6th gear now! Personally, I'm glad that the vendors on this site are willing to let us in on some of their upcoming developments. As a result of things I've read here, I have a small list of items I've been waiting to see "coalesce from the vapor," and these are from a wide range of vendors- from where I stand, no one has a monopoly on long wait times for product releases, and poking people in the eye over perceived delays gains nothing for anyone. Personally, I am glad to be furnished with advance product information by the vendors who serve our community, even if it is frustrating to wait for those items once the cat's out of the bag!
I'd rather be in the loop than in the dark.
Regards,
Brian
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
I wonder if any of you have worked for the government...
...and if you have, you know what I mean.
It not secret we are a wild bunch, us MINI owners, but really, we can wait. The world did not end in the last three months so you would never have gotten to try the AGS out. Just think of it as time to build up the capital in your savings accounts.
You're right not to buy anything without data, but he's not trying to sell it to you yet, so really, that's no big deal. It'll come out, and it'll be good, or not. Let's let the man work in peace, and buy the products we want for our MINI's. I mean, think of the Karma...
...and if you have, you know what I mean.
It not secret we are a wild bunch, us MINI owners, but really, we can wait. The world did not end in the last three months so you would never have gotten to try the AGS out. Just think of it as time to build up the capital in your savings accounts.
You're right not to buy anything without data, but he's not trying to sell it to you yet, so really, that's no big deal. It'll come out, and it'll be good, or not. Let's let the man work in peace, and buy the products we want for our MINI's. I mean, think of the Karma...
Originally Posted by PFC Moody
OH YES, I know what it is like to work for the Government!!! 
Zack L. Moody
SPC / USA
327th Sig Bn (Airborne)
A Co. 111th Sig Bn
Baghdad, Iraq
CJTF-7
Zack L. Moody
SPC / USA
327th Sig Bn (Airborne)
A Co. 111th Sig Bn
Baghdad, Iraq
CJTF-7
Matt
1st Gear
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: Greenwood, SC
Dr Obnxs,
I am still looking, but I dont think any of the ppl in Iraq know what kind of fun they are missing out on! I was thinking about getting it worked out where I could ship my mini over here so I could rip through the street with the tanks! I am sure if the ppl had any minis over here the country would probably be better off! At least it would help them with their fuel economy, since they wait like 2 hours just for a tank of gas! Have seen lots of European cars and trucks over here though, but none in good shape...Kuwait is a different story though!
I am still looking, but I dont think any of the ppl in Iraq know what kind of fun they are missing out on! I was thinking about getting it worked out where I could ship my mini over here so I could rip through the street with the tanks!
I am sure if the ppl had any minis over here the country would probably be better off! At least it would help them with their fuel economy, since they wait like 2 hours just for a tank of gas! Have seen lots of European cars and trucks over here though, but none in good shape...Kuwait is a different story though!
