Drivetrain Devil's Own Water/Meth
Well I guess this is still about the Devil's Own WM kit...
Still planning the install...Blimey, do this yet?
Ill get some numbers up here too when I get to a Dyno in the middle of the month.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Julio is the owner of alky control
My name is chance.
I can post here. Out of respect, Since i don't pay to be a vendor here i can't talk about certain things though. I have a business to run and don't have time to argue with people with lots of free time on the internet. Even though they have yet to sell 1 kit yet they "know far more than i do" So they are free to even that. Even though they call Me for questions... I don't call aqumist with my questions. Please don't waist my time if your a aquimist dealer with calling me with your questions. Referr to them.
We sell 100's of kits each month. We are not some company be ran from a house... Who idea of a new product is removing someone else sticker and making all the claims in the world of your testing.
My name is chance.
I can post here. Out of respect, Since i don't pay to be a vendor here i can't talk about certain things though. I have a business to run and don't have time to argue with people with lots of free time on the internet. Even though they have yet to sell 1 kit yet they "know far more than i do" So they are free to even that. Even though they call Me for questions... I don't call aqumist with my questions. Please don't waist my time if your a aquimist dealer with calling me with your questions. Referr to them.
We sell 100's of kits each month. We are not some company be ran from a house... Who idea of a new product is removing someone else sticker and making all the claims in the world of your testing.
If you are the expert, feel free to share your testing results on the MINI.
Banned
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,640
Likes: 0
From: Flitwick UK
When I was testing kits on my own I was buying parts from half a dozen vendors. I talked with you about the MINI application, and you agreed it couldn't be done right without a MAF sensor. Why the change of heart now?
If you are the expert, feel free to share your testing results on the MINI.
If you are the expert, feel free to share your testing results on the MINI.
Personally I cant wait because I reckon its going to be a big seller, just need some real world ET data to sell it to some mini petrol head owners.
2nd Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
There is another vendor how already have a pulse-width-system on the market:
http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=75
From my point of view the thing is much simpler....
The mini engine is quite delicate with high intake temps, above 133°f the ecu pulls timing and dumps fuel.
With water/meth you easily stay below that point and be able to add a bit of timing.
On my engine it start spraying at 10 PSI and max at 15 PSI, the ECU is set to 31° of timing without any signs of pinging. My biggest problem is a much to rich mixture but we will tune it soon.
I´m thinking about add the HKS AFR http://www.hksusa.com/categories/?id=1920 to finetune the mixture for the use of meth.
http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=75
From my point of view the thing is much simpler....
The mini engine is quite delicate with high intake temps, above 133°f the ecu pulls timing and dumps fuel.
With water/meth you easily stay below that point and be able to add a bit of timing.
On my engine it start spraying at 10 PSI and max at 15 PSI, the ECU is set to 31° of timing without any signs of pinging. My biggest problem is a much to rich mixture but we will tune it soon.
I´m thinking about add the HKS AFR http://www.hksusa.com/categories/?id=1920 to finetune the mixture for the use of meth.
Of course, whenever I say it's done and it works (sufficiently for my current needs), I expect the barrage of "UNPOSSIBLE!" and "You're deluding yourself!" and "FANBOI!" and "but it's not OPTIMAL!" remarks.
C'est la vie.
Unlike them............ I have the testing done
the problem with the snow is it's still a speed based pump system (won't work properly in all conditions) The beauty of our system is it sprays right in all conditions You WON'T get it running too rich
Not going to call you a fanboi............. but I will tell you right now it won't be OPTIMAL..............and save you the I told you so later
There is another vendor how already have a pulse-width-system on the market:
http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=75
From my point of view the thing is much simpler....
The mini engine is quite delicate with high intake temps, above 133°f the ecu pulls timing and dumps fuel.
With water/meth you easily stay below that point and be able to add a bit of timing.
On my engine it start spraying at 10 PSI and max at 15 PSI, the ECU is set to 31° of timing without any signs of pinging. My biggest problem is a much to rich mixture but we will tune it soon.
I´m thinking about add the HKS AFR http://www.hksusa.com/categories/?id=1920 to finetune the mixture for the use of meth.
http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=75
From my point of view the thing is much simpler....
The mini engine is quite delicate with high intake temps, above 133°f the ecu pulls timing and dumps fuel.
With water/meth you easily stay below that point and be able to add a bit of timing.
On my engine it start spraying at 10 PSI and max at 15 PSI, the ECU is set to 31° of timing without any signs of pinging. My biggest problem is a much to rich mixture but we will tune it soon.
I´m thinking about add the HKS AFR http://www.hksusa.com/categories/?id=1920 to finetune the mixture for the use of meth.
You WON'T get it running too rich
4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
From: Orange Park, Fl.
LOL...LOOK!! 6 pages...!! and the results are........ no wait.. More info to come!! ( these color thingies are cool...) There should be a post for all the High tech guys to banter back and forth and then we, the average guys, can go to that post and and be "dazzled with brilliance, or maybe baffled with BS"
We could dredge ourselves thru all the pages, and then go with whom we wish and NOT be prone to be smashed from from those vendors that have all the answers, and the capacity to take a simple system of anything and make it like that Christmas toy we have to put together. I feel the point is made here!! But then, I like most dont know how anything works, and the earth is flat, the MOON thingy was just a MOVIE!!
Blimey.. let us know your results. I have 10 WHP from mine. And add'l HP when I sprayed Nitrous!! But then again... I have the pump/sel/res in the back .... This is a great mod for the MCS, dont get lost in the 6 pages of Technical Banter !! cool??
Just me....................................
Thumper
Hey.. Devils own, become a vendor and then you will be PAYING for the insults, instead of receiving them free!! Just a thought.
Tpr
We could dredge ourselves thru all the pages, and then go with whom we wish and NOT be prone to be smashed from from those vendors that have all the answers, and the capacity to take a simple system of anything and make it like that Christmas toy we have to put together. I feel the point is made here!! But then, I like most dont know how anything works, and the earth is flat, the MOON thingy was just a MOVIE!!
Blimey.. let us know your results. I have 10 WHP from mine. And add'l HP when I sprayed Nitrous!! But then again... I have the pump/sel/res in the back .... This is a great mod for the MCS, dont get lost in the 6 pages of Technical Banter !! cool??
Just me....................................
Thumper
Hey.. Devils own, become a vendor and then you will be PAYING for the insults, instead of receiving them free!! Just a thought.
Tpr
LOL...LOOK!! 6 pages...!! and the results are........ no wait.. More info to come!! ( these color thingies are cool...) There should be a post for all the High tech guys to banter back and forth and then we, the average guys, can go to that post and and be "dazzled with brilliance, or maybe baffled with BS"
We could dredge ourselves thru all the pages, and then go with whom we wish and NOT be prone to be smashed from from those vendors that have all the answers, and the capacity to take a simple system of anything and make it like that Christmas toy we have to put together. I feel the point is made here!! But then, I like most dont know how anything works, and the earth is flat, the MOON thingy was just a MOVIE!!
Blimey.. let us know your results. I have 10 WHP from mine. And add'l HP when I sprayed Nitrous!! But then again... I have the pump/sel/res in the back .... This is a great mod for the MCS, dont get lost in the 6 pages of Technical Banter !! cool??
Just me....................................
Thumper
Hey.. Devils own, become a vendor and then you will be PAYING for the insults, instead of receiving them free!! Just a thought.
Tpr
We could dredge ourselves thru all the pages, and then go with whom we wish and NOT be prone to be smashed from from those vendors that have all the answers, and the capacity to take a simple system of anything and make it like that Christmas toy we have to put together. I feel the point is made here!! But then, I like most dont know how anything works, and the earth is flat, the MOON thingy was just a MOVIE!!
Blimey.. let us know your results. I have 10 WHP from mine. And add'l HP when I sprayed Nitrous!! But then again... I have the pump/sel/res in the back .... This is a great mod for the MCS, dont get lost in the 6 pages of Technical Banter !! cool??
Just me....................................
Thumper
Hey.. Devils own, become a vendor and then you will be PAYING for the insults, instead of receiving them free!! Just a thought.
Tpr
you gained 10whp at the top and lost 1 ft lb of max torque.... what's the true benefit of that?
ignorance is bliss isn't it?
2nd Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Thumper,
the stock ECU is set to max timing of 29°.
With your mods (pulley and head) and without additional cooling and high octane race fuel the ECU detects constant pinging and retards the timing by at least 4° in high revs. When you spray water/meth the pinging is gone and the timing advance back to 29°, this gives you the additional 10 hp.
Spraying boost controled gives to much water at mid revs to get the right amount of water at high revs.
Jan is right that only an inj. pulse-width controlled system solve this problem. An additional amout of 20% water according to gas is most probably the right mixture, this is unpossible on boost controlled.
This squamist system has all what it needs.
the stock ECU is set to max timing of 29°.
With your mods (pulley and head) and without additional cooling and high octane race fuel the ECU detects constant pinging and retards the timing by at least 4° in high revs. When you spray water/meth the pinging is gone and the timing advance back to 29°, this gives you the additional 10 hp.
Spraying boost controled gives to much water at mid revs to get the right amount of water at high revs.
Jan is right that only an inj. pulse-width controlled system solve this problem. An additional amout of 20% water according to gas is most probably the right mixture, this is unpossible on boost controlled.
This squamist system has all what it needs.
Not going to call you a fanboi............. but I will tell you right now it won't be OPTIMAL..............and save you the I told you so later
And will hold you to it
I've already conceded that I'm not expecting "optimal"..
Just wondering if it's "good enough for nimrods like me"
AutoXCooper, Blimey... get to install yet?
Ive been sidetracked alot in the past few weeks in terms of what needs to be done when I get a chance to work on the car...
Ive got this beautiful kit and some PLX gauges just looking at me...begging...and Im here right now...typing away on this miserable computer
Ive been sidetracked alot in the past few weeks in terms of what needs to be done when I get a chance to work on the car...
Ive got this beautiful kit and some PLX gauges just looking at me...begging...and Im here right now...typing away on this miserable computer
I sent you a PM a week or so ago... and there's also a post on your thread on the Devil's Own forum. I still have a little more testing and adjustment to do to mine before I'm ready to talk about it here... for obvious reasons.
4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
From: Orange Park, Fl.
Here are a dyno graph of a increase thru water/meth systems..... The key is the safty added to an engine that isnt tuned.
Just me......................
Thumper
1st: Base engine/ 15% pulley/ water meth / Head !! all stock ECU and tune
2 nd: Head/ Nitrous/ Nitrous on water meth. !! All stock ECU and tune
Last edited by Thumper460; Feb 2, 2009 at 08:50 AM.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Thumper,
the stock ECU is set to max timing of 29°.
With your mods (pulley and head) and without additional cooling and high octane race fuel the ECU detects constant pinging and retards the timing by at least 4° in high revs. When you spray water/meth the pinging is gone and the timing advance back to 29°, this gives you the additional 10 hp.
Spraying boost controled gives to much water at mid revs to get the right amount of water at high revs.
Jan is right that only an inj. pulse-width controlled system solve this problem. An additional amout of 20% water according to gas is most probably the right mixture, this is unpossible on boost controlled.
This squamist system has all what it needs.
the stock ECU is set to max timing of 29°.
With your mods (pulley and head) and without additional cooling and high octane race fuel the ECU detects constant pinging and retards the timing by at least 4° in high revs. When you spray water/meth the pinging is gone and the timing advance back to 29°, this gives you the additional 10 hp.
Spraying boost controled gives to much water at mid revs to get the right amount of water at high revs.
Jan is right that only an inj. pulse-width controlled system solve this problem. An additional amout of 20% water according to gas is most probably the right mixture, this is unpossible on boost controlled.
This squamist system has all what it needs.
I get that part, too. Don't leave me out.
I get that boost-controlled isn't going to be *perfect*. What no one has been able to tell me or show me is what the practical difference is under various driving conditions. i.e. if I setup the system so it's never spraying "too much"... which means it will be spraying "less than optimal" at other points... what's the net impact between this and the ideal system... since I *think* all with creds will agree that something is better than nothing (as long as you're not spraying too much)... yes?
big_howe - I have big ears for what you have to say in this area, since you have experience with both types of systems. While I *get it* that the aquamist-type rig is current state-of-the-art, quite a few folks were convinced that their previous-gen boost-controlled systems were improvements over *nothing*... looking at your old posts, you seemed to like your old system for a while? What specific experience did you have that convinced you that the system you originally built and seemed to like just didn't cut the mustard?
Thanks!
I get that boost-controlled isn't going to be *perfect*. What no one has been able to tell me or show me is what the practical difference is under various driving conditions. i.e. if I setup the system so it's never spraying "too much"... which means it will be spraying "less than optimal" at other points... what's the net impact between this and the ideal system... since I *think* all with creds will agree that something is better than nothing (as long as you're not spraying too much)... yes?
big_howe - I have big ears for what you have to say in this area, since you have experience with both types of systems. While I *get it* that the aquamist-type rig is current state-of-the-art, quite a few folks were convinced that their previous-gen boost-controlled systems were improvements over *nothing*... looking at your old posts, you seemed to like your old system for a while? What specific experience did you have that convinced you that the system you originally built and seemed to like just didn't cut the mustard?
Thanks!
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 623
Likes: 63
From: Oxford England
I get that part, too. Don't leave me out.
will agree that something is better than nothing (as long as you're not spraying too much)... yes?
... looking at your old posts, you seemed to like your old system for a while? What specific experience did you have that convinced you that the system you originally built and seemed to like just didn't cut the mustard?
Thanks!
will agree that something is better than nothing (as long as you're not spraying too much)... yes?
... looking at your old posts, you seemed to like your old system for a while? What specific experience did you have that convinced you that the system you originally built and seemed to like just didn't cut the mustard?
Thanks!
5th Gear
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Blimey, concerning the old kit, when you are a starving man, a can of spam is good. I mainly bought the original kit to combat pinging on my car when it was stock. It mainly fixed the pinging, and I was happy looking at the inlet temps, but when I dug deeper realized that getting consistent power was difficult. If you go to fat with the AFR the ECU will take the timing away. I found that probably less than 15% of the time I could get the system to actually give me good timing across the whole rev range. Look at Thumpers chart, he gained 10hp, but lost TQ. With the boost actuation, it's too fat in the midrange. On my car, not tuning for the Meth, I saw about 2-3lbft, but not consistantly. I also saw about 6hp on average, but again not always.
If we had a MAF system it would be a different story. The thing about the system I have now is it always sprays the right amount and is consistent in operation. It meters correctly through the whole rev range so you can have power and TQ.
This is probably rambling a bit as I'm traveling and typing on the phone. Let me know if this makes sense and I can elaborate more when I'm home tonight.
If we had a MAF system it would be a different story. The thing about the system I have now is it always sprays the right amount and is consistent in operation. It meters correctly through the whole rev range so you can have power and TQ.
This is probably rambling a bit as I'm traveling and typing on the phone. Let me know if this makes sense and I can elaborate more when I'm home tonight.
Makes sense - thanks for the feedback.
I love spam. 
So what I'm trying to figure out is if I'm living within a narrower rev range (let's say most of my WOT-type driving is below 6000 RPM) and I spray with a smaller nozzle to avoid over-spraying... this has gotta have *some* positive impact on temps... and on detonation... sounds like it did in your setup...
again... my objective is performance more like "cold weather" in "hottish weather"... not big time gains... I gotta wait for warmer weather here to be able to effectively street-test this, anyway... but, over this past weekend, with warm weather here, it sure as heck felt like it was pulling harder through that band with the setup I'm testing... next good warm day that we get, I'll do lotsa pulls with and without and we'll see what happens...
What you said was very clear... but more elaboration is always welcomed!
I love spam.
So what I'm trying to figure out is if I'm living within a narrower rev range (let's say most of my WOT-type driving is below 6000 RPM) and I spray with a smaller nozzle to avoid over-spraying... this has gotta have *some* positive impact on temps... and on detonation... sounds like it did in your setup...
again... my objective is performance more like "cold weather" in "hottish weather"... not big time gains... I gotta wait for warmer weather here to be able to effectively street-test this, anyway... but, over this past weekend, with warm weather here, it sure as heck felt like it was pulling harder through that band with the setup I'm testing... next good warm day that we get, I'll do lotsa pulls with and without and we'll see what happens...
What you said was very clear... but more elaboration is always welcomed!