Drivetrain Gintani Aftercooler Program
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Our software takes a different approach compared to dimsport. Our software does not pre-define maps, values, and definitions. Capability comes from being able to observe maps as raw code and modify specific maps and locations other tuning solutions leave out.
its like toys r us here i never wanna go home.
Vendor & Moderator :: MINI Camera and Video & c3 club forum
iTrader: (6)
Long days are what the MINI fun is all about! I've been here 15 hours too, and I'm still here at my shop. I have to make a comment before this thread gets locked.
When I saw your first post, I thought--cool, that looks kinda interesting. I'd seen your product on Bob's (ReCoop's) MINI. Looks well made--course I didn't really know what it was at first, until I realized it was a replacement for my intercooler. Having seen this over and over again with M7's DFIC and Alta's DFIC and the number of aftermarket intercoolers in the marketplace because people realized it didn't make all that big of a difference. Here's something that's 4 times as expensive. My first thought was---does it really work??
And then you posted incorrect information that was quickly corrected by those that you seemed to have misquoted---and it just went downhill from there. Any interest in your product, any potential respect for you and the products that you represent, just went down the toilet.
It's amazing how vendors who rely on the support of the community to buy our products are so ready to dismiss these customers! Potential and otherwise.
Jan is a good guy. I had often seen him attacked by other vendors, and until I met him and got my MINI tuned by him, did I realize this was one genuine fellow who brought a lot of value to the community and was unfairly targeted.
For you, someone who isn't even known yet, to attack someone that many of us have great respect for, and then judge us--is in incredibly bad taste.
I hope you're successful with your strategy, but whatever methods that have worked for you on other forums, won't work here on NAM, if this is any hint of things to come.
Richard
When I saw your first post, I thought--cool, that looks kinda interesting. I'd seen your product on Bob's (ReCoop's) MINI. Looks well made--course I didn't really know what it was at first, until I realized it was a replacement for my intercooler. Having seen this over and over again with M7's DFIC and Alta's DFIC and the number of aftermarket intercoolers in the marketplace because people realized it didn't make all that big of a difference. Here's something that's 4 times as expensive. My first thought was---does it really work??
And then you posted incorrect information that was quickly corrected by those that you seemed to have misquoted---and it just went downhill from there. Any interest in your product, any potential respect for you and the products that you represent, just went down the toilet.
It's amazing how vendors who rely on the support of the community to buy our products are so ready to dismiss these customers! Potential and otherwise.
Jan is a good guy. I had often seen him attacked by other vendors, and until I met him and got my MINI tuned by him, did I realize this was one genuine fellow who brought a lot of value to the community and was unfairly targeted.
For you, someone who isn't even known yet, to attack someone that many of us have great respect for, and then judge us--is in incredibly bad taste.
I hope you're successful with your strategy, but whatever methods that have worked for you on other forums, won't work here on NAM, if this is any hint of things to come.
Richard
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I undestand how you feel fortunately Jan can tell you why.....Ask him...This isnt the thread to speak about this and if you would like to talk to me about this further call me on business hours and I will even pm you my cell phone.
I already apologized for my conduct I am not proud of my actions. I reacted as any human would to protect their family, the entire staff at Gintani is my family. Ive known my partner for a very very long time and for my others brothers (The Team) , I am honored to represent them. I would give my left and my right for my family.
I respect your decision and thats your personal opinion. Not every likes chocolate shakes.
Just to clarify this is our only forum we have ever been active on....I dont know where you recieved this information.....
I already apologized for my conduct I am not proud of my actions. I reacted as any human would to protect their family, the entire staff at Gintani is my family. Ive known my partner for a very very long time and for my others brothers (The Team) , I am honored to represent them. I would give my left and my right for my family.
I respect your decision and thats your personal opinion. Not every likes chocolate shakes.
Just to clarify this is our only forum we have ever been active on....I dont know where you recieved this information.....
Last edited by GINTANI; Jan 30, 2008 at 10:39 PM.
its a nice looking piece ill give ya that...but i dont think i could part with 2500 bucks for what is a hyper developed FMIC...just my .02...but good luck here, all the vendors had to start somewhere on NAM, give it time and prove your product to the MINI masses and it will get easier
Long days are what the MINI fun is all about! I've been here 15 hours too, and I'm still here at my shop. I have to make a comment before this thread gets locked.
When I saw your first post, I thought--cool, that looks kinda interesting. I'd seen your product on Bob's (ReCoop's) MINI. Looks well made--course I didn't really know what it was at first, until I realized it was a replacement for my intercooler. Having seen this over and over again with M7's DFIC and Alta's DFIC and the number of aftermarket intercoolers in the marketplace because people realized it didn't make all that big of a difference. Here's something that's 4 times as expensive. My first thought was---does it really work??
And then you posted incorrect information that was quickly corrected by those that you seemed to have misquoted---and it just went downhill from there. Any interest in your product, any potential respect for you and the products that you represent, just went down the toilet.
It's amazing how vendors who rely on the support of the community to buy our products are so ready to dismiss these customers! Potential and otherwise.
Jan is a good guy. I had often seen him attacked by other vendors, and until I met him and got my MINI tuned by him, did I realize this was one genuine fellow who brought a lot of value to the community and was unfairly targeted.
For you, someone who isn't even known yet, to attack someone that many of us have great respect for, and then judge us--is in incredibly bad taste.
I hope you're successful with your strategy, but whatever methods that have worked for you on other forums, won't work here on NAM, if this is any hint of things to come.
Richard
When I saw your first post, I thought--cool, that looks kinda interesting. I'd seen your product on Bob's (ReCoop's) MINI. Looks well made--course I didn't really know what it was at first, until I realized it was a replacement for my intercooler. Having seen this over and over again with M7's DFIC and Alta's DFIC and the number of aftermarket intercoolers in the marketplace because people realized it didn't make all that big of a difference. Here's something that's 4 times as expensive. My first thought was---does it really work??
And then you posted incorrect information that was quickly corrected by those that you seemed to have misquoted---and it just went downhill from there. Any interest in your product, any potential respect for you and the products that you represent, just went down the toilet.
It's amazing how vendors who rely on the support of the community to buy our products are so ready to dismiss these customers! Potential and otherwise.
Jan is a good guy. I had often seen him attacked by other vendors, and until I met him and got my MINI tuned by him, did I realize this was one genuine fellow who brought a lot of value to the community and was unfairly targeted.
For you, someone who isn't even known yet, to attack someone that many of us have great respect for, and then judge us--is in incredibly bad taste.
I hope you're successful with your strategy, but whatever methods that have worked for you on other forums, won't work here on NAM, if this is any hint of things to come.
Richard
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Let me get a chance here to really explain this product.....With all the earlier DRAMA it really didnt give us a chance to explain its true function.
This system cannot be compared to any w2a system on this market. Its not a w2a unit that replaces the factory cooler on top of the engine. The factory stock intercooler has 3 pieces, A supercharger discharge, a2a intercooler mounted on top of the engine, intercooler discharge back into the intake manifold.
There is a 3psi loss from the time the air exits the supercharger enters the core and exits into the intake manifold. During this time the air is meet with alot of friction due to restrictive factory plumbing. The factory cooler sits above the engine, its design was to cool the supercharged air which exits the blower,however due to the small core after a few spirited runs in a stock mini you will be meet with heat soak.
And if heat soak begins, the factory ecu will start to retard timing. Loss of power through timing then because intake tempuratures start to rise the combustion process is compromised as well.
The intercooler sits above the engine which produces alot of heat, well heat rises and since the intercooler is above the engine it will heat from underneath as well. So while the intercooler dissapates the heat from the supercharger its also being heated from underneath ala engine heat. Well its like taking a pan to the oven. Although aluminum has great properties regarding heat when placed in a oven well its not going to do its job correcty.
While it sounds like a great idea to replace the factory core with a w2a replacement like the other coolers you mentioned, although they have the capability to cool the air they are still mounted above the engine which produces alot of heat. Your back to placing your pan into the oven eventually it will also get heat soaked and there is still the psi loss between the exit of the supercharger and the entrance into the intake manifold.
This is where our product differs. We removed the entire factory supercharger discharge, factory a2a core, and the intercooler discharge manifold. Why.
By removing these components we also removed the factory psi loss. Thats the reason our system gains boost.
In our aftercooler system we designed a new intake manifold with an integrated w2a core. Why.
The new intake manifold design integrates the w2a core. By replacing the entire factory manifold we were able to design a system which is compact, efficient, and away from the heat path.We supply a new custom supercharger discharge manifold which feeds into the aftercooler . What this does is remove the lag that once exististed due to the loss of pressure and the air length path that the factory system displays.
Well we have covered the Gintani Aftercooler produces less lag, increases power due to psi gain, increased drivability due to a more efficient intake manifold and now for the cooling.
Cooling is handled via custom made turbonetic cores, We recieve them and fabricate the rest of the components they need to finally make their place inside the aftercooler manifold. The heat exchanger is custom designed for our specs by Ron Davis. Since this is a w2a system there is an eletric pump which pumps water through the heat exchanger into the aftercooler manifold. From there it moves to a reservoir tank then down to the pump again.
The factory supercharger on a full wide open sprint can produce exit air temps of over 270 degrees, becuase of its cooling design our aftercooler is able to maintain intake tempuratures of 95-110 degrees. These results are achieved not only in heavy traffic conditions but also at the track during entire weeks of testing. We also pushed its design and ran it with a twincharged system. Results were just as favorable. (Randy can chime in on this if he would like). The efficiency in its design the aftercooler produces consistent power....repeatable run after run, lap after lap even in a traffic jam.
So to sum it all up increased drivabilty due to improved intake design, more power from boost, no heat saturation, more response since lag is reduced, optimum cooling. Our aftercooler gains a minimum of 14hp as posted on the dyno chart on the first page, completely stock vehicle. This is the minimum power gain, every Mini will be unique due to different individual modifications and the maximum achievable results are based on the products each individual purchased for their vehicle. The aftercooler is the foundation to build on......mod after mod the aftercooler helps achieve better results...
This is the difference between the w2a units and the Gintani AfterCooler Program.
This system cannot be compared to any w2a system on this market. Its not a w2a unit that replaces the factory cooler on top of the engine. The factory stock intercooler has 3 pieces, A supercharger discharge, a2a intercooler mounted on top of the engine, intercooler discharge back into the intake manifold.
There is a 3psi loss from the time the air exits the supercharger enters the core and exits into the intake manifold. During this time the air is meet with alot of friction due to restrictive factory plumbing. The factory cooler sits above the engine, its design was to cool the supercharged air which exits the blower,however due to the small core after a few spirited runs in a stock mini you will be meet with heat soak.
And if heat soak begins, the factory ecu will start to retard timing. Loss of power through timing then because intake tempuratures start to rise the combustion process is compromised as well.
The intercooler sits above the engine which produces alot of heat, well heat rises and since the intercooler is above the engine it will heat from underneath as well. So while the intercooler dissapates the heat from the supercharger its also being heated from underneath ala engine heat. Well its like taking a pan to the oven. Although aluminum has great properties regarding heat when placed in a oven well its not going to do its job correcty.
While it sounds like a great idea to replace the factory core with a w2a replacement like the other coolers you mentioned, although they have the capability to cool the air they are still mounted above the engine which produces alot of heat. Your back to placing your pan into the oven eventually it will also get heat soaked and there is still the psi loss between the exit of the supercharger and the entrance into the intake manifold.
This is where our product differs. We removed the entire factory supercharger discharge, factory a2a core, and the intercooler discharge manifold. Why.
By removing these components we also removed the factory psi loss. Thats the reason our system gains boost.
In our aftercooler system we designed a new intake manifold with an integrated w2a core. Why.
The new intake manifold design integrates the w2a core. By replacing the entire factory manifold we were able to design a system which is compact, efficient, and away from the heat path.We supply a new custom supercharger discharge manifold which feeds into the aftercooler . What this does is remove the lag that once exististed due to the loss of pressure and the air length path that the factory system displays.
Well we have covered the Gintani Aftercooler produces less lag, increases power due to psi gain, increased drivability due to a more efficient intake manifold and now for the cooling.
Cooling is handled via custom made turbonetic cores, We recieve them and fabricate the rest of the components they need to finally make their place inside the aftercooler manifold. The heat exchanger is custom designed for our specs by Ron Davis. Since this is a w2a system there is an eletric pump which pumps water through the heat exchanger into the aftercooler manifold. From there it moves to a reservoir tank then down to the pump again.
The factory supercharger on a full wide open sprint can produce exit air temps of over 270 degrees, becuase of its cooling design our aftercooler is able to maintain intake tempuratures of 95-110 degrees. These results are achieved not only in heavy traffic conditions but also at the track during entire weeks of testing. We also pushed its design and ran it with a twincharged system. Results were just as favorable. (Randy can chime in on this if he would like). The efficiency in its design the aftercooler produces consistent power....repeatable run after run, lap after lap even in a traffic jam.
So to sum it all up increased drivabilty due to improved intake design, more power from boost, no heat saturation, more response since lag is reduced, optimum cooling. Our aftercooler gains a minimum of 14hp as posted on the dyno chart on the first page, completely stock vehicle. This is the minimum power gain, every Mini will be unique due to different individual modifications and the maximum achievable results are based on the products each individual purchased for their vehicle. The aftercooler is the foundation to build on......mod after mod the aftercooler helps achieve better results...
This is the difference between the w2a units and the Gintani AfterCooler Program.
Last edited by GINTANI; Jan 31, 2008 at 10:31 AM.
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2006
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Gimme a break.....
I watched this thread start to blow up last night and could not stay to see where it would go next, although the path was clear. This morning I had to make it my first stop of the day and sure enough.......
Nothing like jumping into a fracas after everyone else has gone home, but this particular post really struck a nerve with me:
There is so much wrong with it I am still beside myself. You are taking cheap <real cheap> shots at a highly respected vendor here. Jan did not gain his reputation by trying to tear down everyone else's products, he did it the old fashioned way - with hard work, skinned knuckles, greasy hands, ingenuity, a keen understanding of the engine, and perseverance. In short he earned our respect. So tearing him down is like kicking a kitten - never gonna' play well anywhere, but especially not here.
Then the audacity to demand that we cease commenting on your thread; if kicking kittens won't play well here - arrogance will be your death blow. And further - it is NOT your thread. You are an outsider coming in with the sole intention of draining my bank account by selling me all you can. This is OUR community and if think for one minute that coming in here and trying to tell us how to behave is going to increase your sales, then it becomes clear why you asked us to show you we have an education - because you clearly do not have one. (Either that or the one you had failed to take)
There are two roads most everywhere in life - the high road and the road you chose to drive in here upon. Leave the bashing and insults to those who do it best - us. Focus instead on making a quality product with demonstrable results at a reasonable price.
My .02
Nothing like jumping into a fracas after everyone else has gone home, but this particular post really struck a nerve with me:
Then the audacity to demand that we cease commenting on your thread; if kicking kittens won't play well here - arrogance will be your death blow. And further - it is NOT your thread. You are an outsider coming in with the sole intention of draining my bank account by selling me all you can. This is OUR community and if think for one minute that coming in here and trying to tell us how to behave is going to increase your sales, then it becomes clear why you asked us to show you we have an education - because you clearly do not have one. (Either that or the one you had failed to take)
There are two roads most everywhere in life - the high road and the road you chose to drive in here upon. Leave the bashing and insults to those who do it best - us. Focus instead on making a quality product with demonstrable results at a reasonable price.
My .02
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Im sorry you feel this way.........I apologized profusely....Although we are new here there is alot of past history between the two companies, much more than meets the eye. Again I apologize for the conduct....
Thanks for the advice well put....This is a quality product with demonstrable repeatable results.
I happen to love the whalen **** as well, quality is amazing great product but its not in the bargain section either but its worth every penny isnt it. Whalen your **** ROCKS!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the advice well put....This is a quality product with demonstrable repeatable results.
I happen to love the whalen **** as well, quality is amazing great product but its not in the bargain section either but its worth every penny isnt it. Whalen your **** ROCKS!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by GINTANI; Jan 31, 2008 at 04:04 AM.
wow. i'm not even going to comment on some of the things that were said here. well i lied... a lot of the car world has existed through trial and error and beer can engineering for a long time. if you want to play the engineering and education card then compare yourself to bmw... not jan. BMW are the ones you are trying to beat here.
Your biggest competition is the prohibitive price per/hp that you have with this product. Many people have dumped money into aftercoolers just to end up going back to stock or gp. At $180 per hp you've got a lot of ground to make up and an entire system to develop to come with the higher boost and low temps.
Don't get me wrong... you solution is very interesting but it raises some questions in my mind:
1) what kind of boost are you seeing in 15% pullied cars with this aftercooler?
2) what kind of time does it take to heat soak the water in your resivoir?
4) what other full systems do you have to deal with this intercooler?
5) what kind of results are you seeing from your real time emulation tuning? deltas? afrs?
6) what happened to johan's car... how is it that it took almost half a year to take a customers car that was shipped out back to him?
7) i'll have more questions... but this is the tip of the iceberg.
Past the bs and drama... you figured out kicking and spitting at jan is a bad idea... You may think you know some dirt on the situation but the reality is he's robin hood here. He comes in and offers parts that make power and prices that the mini community is expecting.
Your stuff looks top notch. But again, it's priced so so so high. The mini community is a strange beast. Compared to other communities the modders here pay a premium for every last little hp over stock. Granted the target market is so much less... but you can build some wicked cars in other communities ground up for 10k. In this one... it just gets you a seat on the 50 yard line so you can watch the big checkbooks play. People have learned the 80/20 rule here... and it's starting to sink in.
Good luck and i await your response.
Your biggest competition is the prohibitive price per/hp that you have with this product. Many people have dumped money into aftercoolers just to end up going back to stock or gp. At $180 per hp you've got a lot of ground to make up and an entire system to develop to come with the higher boost and low temps.
Don't get me wrong... you solution is very interesting but it raises some questions in my mind:
1) what kind of boost are you seeing in 15% pullied cars with this aftercooler?
2) what kind of time does it take to heat soak the water in your resivoir?
4) what other full systems do you have to deal with this intercooler?
5) what kind of results are you seeing from your real time emulation tuning? deltas? afrs?
6) what happened to johan's car... how is it that it took almost half a year to take a customers car that was shipped out back to him?
7) i'll have more questions... but this is the tip of the iceberg.
Past the bs and drama... you figured out kicking and spitting at jan is a bad idea... You may think you know some dirt on the situation but the reality is he's robin hood here. He comes in and offers parts that make power and prices that the mini community is expecting.
Your stuff looks top notch. But again, it's priced so so so high. The mini community is a strange beast. Compared to other communities the modders here pay a premium for every last little hp over stock. Granted the target market is so much less... but you can build some wicked cars in other communities ground up for 10k. In this one... it just gets you a seat on the 50 yard line so you can watch the big checkbooks play. People have learned the 80/20 rule here... and it's starting to sink in.
Good luck and i await your response.
Last edited by minimusprime; Jan 31, 2008 at 05:49 AM.