Again, how does your formula apply to therse two runs?

 

I'm really trying to figure this out, what is yours or Jans beef ?

These formulas have been around since the 60s

We do more testing at the dragstrip with Minis than anyone else.

So are you saying these formulas dont work with any Mini or just Hubie's car?

Please explain your reasoning and the formula you have devised which is obviously superior.

 

people before Columbus also thought the world was flat............

answer the questions ............

 

what was the question again

 

My only beef is from a scientific point of view. Yes, these formulas have been around since the sixties, when dynos weren't prevalent and accessible. And everything was RWD. And nearly everything was a V8.........etc. You continue to insinuate that the HP made in the States is invalid until we corroborate it with your "superior" 50 year old formula. As I stated a few posts ago, there are many errors involved in your formula, where the dyno is a world wide accepted standard, except in your MINI world.
If you wish to say your formula is the standard by which MINI's will be judged, then you must prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that it works in every circumstance and is as accurate as the dyno. Otherwise, I don't care what numbers you crunch to use as advertising to sell your parts across the pond. Until that proof is given, I can't see you being taken very seriously with your rhetoric.

 

But you run the parts we sell across the Pond Big Howe, how did you think you got to 260

 

Right, but this isn't about parts, is it?

 

No you got it wrong Big Howe

I have stated that dynos are dynos and you should only compare numbers with the same dyno the real test is on the same day (shootout) you're lucky at Churches taht they have two dynapacks so they could proberly do 20 in a day.

Same as drag racing, 20 of you turn up at the same track and light the score board up in the same conditions.

Now if 20 of you went to Churches and run your cars on the Dyna Packs they got there, then you all went to Pomonoa and all run your cars that night and weighed them with driver,you would have a relationship between the number that you posted at Churches and the mph which has lit up on the scoreboards. At this point you can adjust the formula to suit what the dynapacks have given.

So now you can compare on any drag strip or any dyno in the world because you have a formula, so without shipping my car over I know on Churches it would make 2** at the hubs. because I use your formula.

Does that make sense?

 

Why do you think all those people at Texas last weekend haven't posted there dyno sheets?

Because they got yours and Batruggers figures as the figures they should acheive. They aren't worried about the other 70 RMW customer who have only got 240s 230s and 220s.

So nowthose texas boys go to Houston or Texas Motorplex (been there) and run there cars and weigh them, guess what there running the same mph as you guys were in Pomona.

So yet again that dyno has its own formula.

 

If you dont want to go to the drag strip, get a performance box like we use

0-60 5.6 0-100 12.6 On road and track

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k-DRKBTLOOQ

 

Paul, for everything you throw at it there are basically two key points 1) Your calculation doesn't work without changing to suit your needs, which make it pointless and 2) Nothing personal against you but I(and many others) really don't care.

As to point 1. You yourself are talking about modifying the formula to fit circumstances and dynos. It plain won't work. It's bad enough that a dyno is off and it skews the numbers. But now you want everyone to start comparing time-sheets and multiple formulas for each dyno too? What happens when two cars the same weight and hp go out and are .5 and 7mph apart. Well guess what, you are right back to; track surface, tire choice, tire pressure, ambient temps, DRIVER SKILL, etc., etc. This is just a whole different level for everyone to try to base comparisons, and it's got way too many variables involved to be a real comparison. I still would like to know about Hubie's 100hp/2mph in your formula. Also, I really don't see how you say you can't compare a dyno day to day. That's why we have SAE corrections. If the dyno is in the same operating condition, I don't understand what you are getting at. Everyone else in the free world accepts dyno results, especially from the same dyno.

As to point 2. It may be young and hip to go to the dragstrip in England, but it's old hat here, most of us really don't care. And if we do, there's a Buick GN in the garage for going to the dragstrip. I don't want to go to Pomona and waste an evening. Why waste 4 hours to go to the strip for a few runs when I can go to the track and run multiple 20 minute or longer sessions a have a lot more fun. Even top flight NHRA action gets tape delayed 2-3 weeks and gets run on a B network here in the states because no one is interested. Why do you think Jan asked how many people went out to watch Hubie? There probably wasn't 3 people there besides the pit crew and family.

I'm trying to be as honest as possible and not trying to be personal. I'm just laying it out the way I see it here. There are enough MINI's and dyno sheets running around that we all know where we stand. Unless it's just a whim to go and race the car one night, I don't see hardly anyone interested in trying to make correlations between dynos and dragstrips.

Bottom line is the ONLY drag race that matters is when you are lined up next to the other guy and the light goes green. Period.

 

Big Howe, everyone is entitled to opinion and that is yours, but guess what you are your normal average Joe and be happy with what they have been told there car makes, in your instance your made 260 hub horsepower which equates to 276 flywheel which by any standards is still pretty kewl and a lot of fun.

Heads up drag racer are a special breed and passionate at what they do, I'm not as dedicated as I should be because I'm getting older. I saw Billy Glidden in 1997 running 7.9 at 180 on a 10.5 slick, he's now running 6.50 at 224, do you think his customers see the benefits?

Jan has created the world most powerful blah blah blah, with a dyno sheet with out backing it up with any proof apart from what we have done here in UK, which he quotes here on NAM when he's selling something. You just said that dynos can be skewed from the same manufacture, so is it right for me to call Jan a liar and that he only use Churches Dynapack because the figures are so skewed and high. NO

But maybe there should be a thread regarding the different readings and why they happen by Jan so the community understands and customers dont get upset or disappointed these figures are no way near yours.

Its not the customer who should be backing his figures up, it should be Jan.

Running at the drag strip is real and shows real world horsepower and shows what works and what doesnt as some of Jan's customers have done here in the UK.

What I dont understand is why you and Jan knock people who are having fun and improving there cars, I have done quite a few shoot out with Mini owners and a lot of them agree that the strip is the same money and a lot more fun.

How many people go to watch Jan at the Streets of Willow ? look forward to the number ?

If you like dynos so much, why dont you go to Hubie's and compare your figure with his on the same dyno.

 

First, I would like to thank everyone who has supported our efforts this year. The MINI brand is unique and has a tremendously loyal and passionate customer base. We have been fortunate once again to partner with MINI USA in promoting the brand at lifestyle and motorsport events. Development of new components and assemblies were accelerated through dyno and track testing. New benchmarks and records were set by the ABF/MINI USA dragster, taking down American Muscle along the way. We accomplished our goal of showcasing the versatility of the MINI platform by competing in different venues. Everytime we go out, we not only fulfill our obligations to all our partners, but we look to open the eyes of those outside the community to what the marque represents and what can be achieved.

Questions have been raised concerning the dynamics of drag racing and its relevance to testing and tuning. The drag stip is the great equlizer and has humbled many local street racers. Sure there are many variables to making consistent passes, but one thing has never changed...fast time slips sell speed parts. There are basic formulas in drag racing, calculators for horsepower, ET, MPH, weight, etc, etc. Using these formulas in conjunction with unique race car specifications and data, we can accurately calculate performance potential as well as deficiencies.

In regards to our performance and accomplishments on and off the track, the processes through which we achieve our successes or failures are not for public consumption or debate. What is important is that we continue to promote the brand and improve product design and development through laboratory and real world testing.

In respect of your interest in the sport and our racing programs, i will respond to your questions and hopefully put an end to useless debate.

MINI USA contacted me earlier this year concerning building a drag program for PINKS ALL OUT. They sent me the original chassis used for drag racing and offered as much support as possible to design and build a low 10 second bracket car. The dragster needed to be user friendly as well as reliable since Vinnie Kung, Product Manger for MINI USA was to be the designed driver for the program and would have limited seat time in preparation for the event. I designed an engine program that had enough power to go deep into the 10s, possibly a high 9, although chassis would only pass 10.0 in tech. As usual, build time, tuning and testing was compressed and the dragster was sent into Battle limping as clutch problems limited our shakedown runs to a best of 11.0ET at 123MPH. An older clutch setup was swapped in and the dragster was sent EAST for Englishtown untested. At PINKS, running extremely conservative fuel and timing maps, the dragster performed flawlessly under the heavy right foot of Vinnie Kung (he broke thirteen axles in testing and competition). With 39PSI, making approximately 480WHP, the MINI ran an official 10.48ET at 135MPH. The car and driver was extremely consistent which allowed me to dial in the boost and adjust tuning based on results and our "formula". For example, with each qualifying run, we increased boost and made adjustments to the ECU. At 35psi, we ran a 10.8 at 131. with 37psi, vinnie went 10.6 at 133. at 39psi, he reset the record for fastest MINI with a 10.4 at 135 and in the final qualifying round off the arm drop, we took down a 9.90 bracket Camaro running an unofficial 10.1-.2 at 139 with 42PSI of boost, which put down over 500whp on the dyno.

Leading into Fontana, i looked to address various issues that we ran into during testing and competition. First was to finish tuning the engine package and we were able to set a new benchmark of 635whp at 46PSI. Second was to address fasterner failures at these elevated boost and HP levels. Third was to alleviate the axle issue - stock axles were only lasting one pass. Unfortunately, we ran into an engine problem the night before qualifying. A prototype fastener failed which lead to destroying our race cylinder head and damaging the block. Digging deep into my reserves, my first priority was to make the event and take care of our sponsor commitments since MINI USA was in attendance. Working through the night, I was able to throw together a stock head and salvage the block, hoping it would stay together for approximately 5-8 passes. My major concern, other than completely off with the tuning and HP levels, was the stock head holding up to the abuse from burn out, launching on the anti-lag and surviving a full pass under 40+ PSI. I hoped it would last more than 5 passes.
we were able to make final qualifying pass on Saturday and squeeze in a 10.8 ET at 124mph. Missing fifth didn't help matters otherwise it was a reasonable shakedown of the new axles and it allowed me to make some gross adjustments to the tune based on my *** dyno and datalogging.
With boost set to approximately 42PSI, we were able to run a 10.6ET @ 137MPH on Sunday and qualified third in Quick 16 with highest MPH. Honestly, i had no idea what the WHP was with the stock head but would guess around 500 from how it felt and the time slip. We labored our way into the semi-finals where unfortunately, the motor dropped a valve during the run and the car slowed to a 11.2 at 129mph. Those are the facts, the dragster ran similar times despite different setups, tracks, drivers, and conditions. In fact, we set a new MPH in the 1/4 of 137 with a stock cylinder head. Not what i had hoped to achieve but considering the problems we had to overcome, we accomplished our goal for the weekend, which was to show the racing and tuning industry once again the performance potential of the marque.

thanks again and will continue to push the envelope....



As to point 1. I still would like to know about Hubie's 100hp/2mph in your formula.

setups were different, unfortunately i did not have the power i wanted, but horsepower numbers are consistent with mph gain. formula works...


As to point 2. Why do you think Jan asked how many people went out to watch Hubie? There probably wasn't 3 people there besides the pit crew and family.

that's three more than zero - which is the number of people besides pit crew and family that showed up to support Bob, Jerry, and Rich racing in USTCC at Buttonwillow the week before.....

 

Big Howe - to dismiss the drag strip as a way of backing up dyno figures is very naive. Everyone likes to quote BHP figures down the pub over here and it's usually flywheel figures rather than WHP figures but that's another debate. TBH I'm guilty of it myself as I wanted the most powerful and fastest Cooper S in the UK and thanks to Jan and Paul I got my wish but I knew others would follow suit, copy the modifications and get bigger and better numbers so I'm always looking for the next leap in performance.

However I also wanted to back up my dyno figures as I knew certain tuners and customers of certain tuners in the UK would say the figures were inflated because the dyno used to test was owned by the company that fitted the parts. Therefore I knew that once the bhp figure of 282 was made public, it had to be backed up on the drag strip and it was. I then went out and bought a RaceLogic VBox system to measure performance on road, 0-60 in 5.6, 0-100 in 12.6. So everything the dyno said matched with the drag strip and hit my expectation of on-road performance when compared to cars with a similar weight and bhp.

However, I'm also a big fan of the track so once the car was completed it went back to my local track, with a stock exhaust to pass the noise regs (-10 bhp) and was given to a chap called John Barker from EVO magazine for 10 laps to get some input on the performance and the set-up. I asked him what power he thought it had and he felt around 260-270 bhp and also asked him about the handling set-up which he praised highly and told me to change nothing more as it turned in and handled like an Elise. High praise indeed and kudos to Jan for the Cross.

So in the UK, we dyno our cars, take them to the drag strip, test them on road and also on track. The best bit is that for the weight of my car, my dyno figure matched my drag strip MPH virtually spot on. THIS FORMULA DOES WORK. I've done 5 runs on 5 different days at the drag strip and guess what, all the MPH figures are the same.

Funny thing is though I've done 3 dyno days away from the 1320 dyno and got 3 completely different figures, 263.5/253.5/248.6, so which one do I use?

The issue here when using different dyno's is - do they use decent cooling fans, have they dyno'd MINI's before so they know to run with the bonnet closed, do they use a database for transmission loss or use run down to calculate... all these factors will skew the figures. So as Paul say's use the same dyno time after time and use a dyno operator that knows about working with MINI's.

Or better yet back up your figures by going down to the drag strip and keep running till you get 3 MPH runs within 0.1 and you'll know that's your benchmark, then use the calculation of MPH against weight etc to give you a real world dyno figure. If the 2 match you're using the right dyno, if not, start asking questions.

In short, if you're living your life by just a dyno figure and you're happy with that because it's 'fun' on track then good for you. But don't start on other people who do testing on dyno, track, strip and on road using the best equipment money can buy, with 4 types of data all pointing to a true real world BHP figure.

It's thanks to the testing done over here that we know the combo currently on my car won't go better than 105.6MPH at the strip or 282 bhp on the dyno. So if you've got the same mod's as me yet your putting out another 30 bhp you have to ask yourself why otherwise you're just fooling yourself.

 

Wow, I must have struck a nerve with the 3 drag racers on NAM. First off,

Paul, so this is about calling Jan a liar because he won't get his customers to go to the strip to verify HP in your eyes?

Hubie, thanks for the clarification, and the confirmation of 3 spectators. My point is the drag racing is way lower down the chain than road racing. Maybe I'm wrong, let's take a poll on NAM on how many road races a poster watches during the year as opposed to drag races on TV or in person.

Bigshow, when your 3 different dynos post different numbers, there's a reason why. Just like you say I don't care about proving it on the track, don't you care to know why your car runs different at different times and how things actually work?
And to be brutally honest, I did not start this pissing contest. It has been Paul with his insistence that the numbers are crap until they are verified by his formula, it's been going on for months. If you are going to throw stones eventually someone throws back. You can make a statement that an instructor drove your car and verified your hp and claim a dyno is wrong. Wow.
Do you think Churches cooks the books for Jan so he can sell parts? I don't think Church's cares two bits about Jan's sales. It seems similar setups all over the country are within 5% of each other. That's a lot closer tolerance than you see in HP from the factory. Are all of these businesses around the country lying for Jan? That's one hell of a conspiracy theory. This is an issue you, Paul and the public can take up with him.

I guess this boils down to Paul claiming Jan is a liar and I could care less about the drag strip.
Hubie's right, this is pointless, but I have the answer to my main beef in this. Paul has already admitted he changes his formula to suit the situation.

 

I think you're missing the point here. I have all of Jans parts so why aren't I making 260 WHP? I'm not saying Jan is lying about this to try and sell parts as I've spent thousands of dollars with Jan and I wouldn't have done if I thought his parts wouldn't make the grade.

What I am saying here is that there is a difference between cars with the same mods in the UK and US by some 30 WHP when you look at dyno sheets... why? If the UK cars with the same RMW mods make between 272-282 bhp on the dyno and all run from 103-105mph down the strip then to me that is the strip backing up the dyno so it makes sense.

You're running 260 WHP so what mods have you got? Here are mine as a comparison as I'm running 236.8 WHP. Jan made more bhp (285.4) tuning mine with a rasied limt of 8,129 RPM but torque dropped to 204, so I stuck with a 7,250 rev limit and made a few changes to give more torque.

- RMW Head
- RMW 440c Injectors
- RMW/1320 Camshaft
- GRS Intercooler
- RMW/1320 Custom Remap
- JCW CAI (flap removed)
- Alta V2 17% Pulley
- Janspeed Manifold
- Milltek Exhaust
- NGK Spark Plugs
- RMW Oil Sump Baffle
- Stock Clutch (On the car since new)
- No Diff
- Team Dynamics Pro Race 1.2 Alloys
- Yokohama Parada Spec II Tyres (205/40/17)
- Tesco 99 Octance Fuel (No additives or NOS)

Paul isn't changing the 1/4 mile formula, it's available to anyone: BHP=(mph/230)x(mph/230)x(mph/230)x weight lbs

 

Oh and my car weighs 2909 lbs with me in it! You can do the math from there.

 

Looks like a different exhaust to me. You're probably choking it.

 

so he made 247 at Texas then

I haven't said Jan is a liar I said that you proberly find there all making the same hp but dynos give different results.

As for chking the car we've seen a 3 mph gain by removing a large tube header and hiflow system and putting a Janspeed and Borla Cooper exhaiust back on, all on the same weekend,

 

if you don't properly tune it.... yes I would probably agree

 

Well then, it sounds like you have it all figured out. Why are you so concerned about being 30whp down on the States?

 

No one over here is 30whp down because Jan got exactly the same figures as Ben's car on the same weekend at Helix.

You're getting confused between hub and wheel (really it should be called tire as thats whats making the contact)

 

really?

I guess fullcollapses 250whp doesn't count then

 

Paul, your's and Bigshows numbers are all over the board. How are you equating Hub hp to tire hp to flywheel hp. Something doesn't add up.