>>JS, first let's never trust what some customer service representative tells us on >>the phone.

Howdy Forcer78. I meant my question to be rhetorical. I know the customer service reps are just reading scripts provided by some higher-ups. I simply wanted to point out that MINI continues to put out disinformation and inconsistent information in regards to this issue.

I hope you can also get your cold start issue resolved, but I'd sure rather have that issue than stumbling every time I launch the car/

See ya,
JS

 

Hi Forcer78,

Could you try the following technique to see if it fixes your cold start problem?
Basically when you start up the car, turn the ignition to 2, and wait for 4 or 5 seconds. Waiting until the seatbelt warning chime to finish is what I use on my BMW. Then start up the car. I know a 3 series and a MINI have totally different engines and computers, but this technique solves my starting problem. The idea is to energize the fuel pump and make sure the fuel pressure is up to operating pressure before attempting to turn over the engine.

And please let us know if it helps you, thanks.

 

I went into the dealership last week for an appointment that was setup with BMWNA. I had to give a test drive to a BMW Field Engineer and the Head mechanic at my dealership. Luckily for me it was over 110 outside and my MC shook horribly. Plus in the last month or so my car has had hesitation starting in the morning too. I drove them around the back streets and let them feel the horrible shaking I have and explained when my car usually stalls, and how I have to have the RPM's up so high just to pull out without getting hit or stalling. I got the response that this is the issue that is happening to MINI's primarily in Florida and Arizona and that there is no fix, but I'll be the first at the dealership if something does come out to test. I asked about air intakes and he stated that some of them could make it worse by bringing in hot air instead of cold. Then I also found out that they are not able to fix my start-up hesitation, that they are working on a fix for that too. All I have to say is that 6 months of this is ridiculous, and if nothing is fixed by the time I have had her for a year (October) they are going to be hearing even more from me, and maybe with my lawyer.

 

>> I asked about air intakes and he stated that some of them could make it worse by bringing in hot air instead of cold.


WOW werds of wisdem here

From a BMW certified "technician"?

_________________
'03 S DS

 

Lemon law is your most powerful and easiest remedy, but please check with your local state statutes, because sometimes you only have a year or 12,000 miles under lemon law protection.

Good luck,
JS

 

>>>>
>>Lemon law is your most powerful and easiest remedy, but please check with your local state statutes, because sometimes you only have a year or 12,000 miles under lemon law protection.
>>
>>Good luck,
>>JS
>>

Just checked:

The period of two years or twenty-four thousand miles following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to the consumer, whichever is earlier.

 

That's great, Sugar. That gives you a lot more time than many of us. Good luck with getting everything sorted out.

See ya,
JS

 

OK folks, I've got big Stumble news, so I'm going to separate it into two separate messages. The first one, to follow this introduction is titled: How I Got Rid of My Stumble (temporarily?). The second will be titled What MINI Knows About the Stumble and What They Are Doing About It. Interested? Read on!

How I Got Rid of My Stumble (temporarily?)
by Maxwell aka Chitown COOP

After discussing the stumble with some fellow motorers at yesterday's baseball rally (props to Dot-Scott, bbmykal, and thechandler), I decided that I would disconnect my battery for a couple of hours to see if there were any positive results. So this afternoon I popped the trunk, got out my 10mm ratchet and loosened the nut to remove the positive connection. I left it disconnected for about two and a half hours. Then I reconnected it, started the car, and took off. Guess what--no stumble whatsoever. I called the wife at home, and told her that I was going to my testing grounds (for Chicagoans: Carroll St. for the 1/2 mile between Ashland and Damen is perfect!). I went back and forth, trying out different throttle and engine speed combinations as well as varying my clutch engagement speed. After about ten minutes I could feel a hint of the stumble. So no, it's not completely gone, but clearly resetting the ECU via power disconnection DOES SOMETHING. I know that this isn't going to solve the problem. I am CERTAIN that it's going to come back, especially since I can now feel it faintly creeping in, but it is clearly removable.

Draw whatever inferences from this that you want to. Here are mine to whet your inference appetite:

1) For all stumblers who autocross or otherwise compete, here's a great way to get your car back in peak shape before a competition. Disconnect your battery for a while after getting to the track and then reconnect shortly before it's time for your run for peak performance.

2) I am absolutely convinced that this is a fuel/air issue. I think that there is something about when the engine first gets real throttle gas after being stopped (and especially after being OFF) that convinces it to either flood or otherwise shut down the engine when the clutch is being engaged. I think that the ECU learns this condition over time and is trying to prevent a non-existent condition of some sort (lean-ness?)

3) Resetting the ECU forces the computer to re-learn its stumble problem. I don't think that it will end up being permanently fixed, but it does show us that there must be some way that this thing *could* be solved. However, it might end up taking a brand new ECU. We'll see about that.

4) For all of you that are seriously into legal action right now, I would strongly recommend that you NOT do this. Otherwise you're going to get the "What squeaking sound?" syndrome when you take this issue to your service advisor or whomever is going to need to test your car for the problem to prove that it exists. You sure don't want to be illustrating the stumble only to have it be non-existent, do you?

5) I think that a lot of people who are doing coil changes and mounting the plasma booster and whatever other electrical changes that seem to be causing a removal of the stumble may be meeting success simply because they're disconnecting the battery for a while. It could also be that changes to the electrical system keep the ECU confused for longer and don't allow it to learn the stumble back as quickly.

6) For all others of you who want to try this, just get a small adjustable crescent wrench or 10 mm socket and loosen the left-most nut on the positive terminal underneath the red cap on the battery. WEAR GLOVES. Then lift the connector off of the terminal. I recovered my terminal with the plastic so that the contact couldn't touch it while I waited. It has a tendency to stretch back to its original position unless you actually put something (non-conductive) in between the two. And be careful when reconnecting as there may be a spark or two. I have heard that you should try waiting for anywhere between 15 minutes and a couple of hours...experiment and see what works for you. I would like to hear what success (or lack thereof) that others have.

Maybe not a true fix, but it certainly is a liberating feeling for your car to drive the way you want for it to for at least a little while!

Read on!

 

Part 2

What MINI Knows About the Stumble and What They Are Doing About It
by Maxwell aka Chitown COOP

I made one of my calls to 888 ASK MINI today, and I actually spoke to someone who somehow has an inside track. Maybe he's just more experienced in general. Maybe he pays attention more. Maybe he is just a pro. I don't know. But his name is James Frost, and he actually sounds like the guy that does the main voice-overs on the ASK MINI line (I asked, and he said that it wasn't him, but he gets that a lot).

Anyway, I started off playing a little dumb (I've noticed a funny problem...), and then I let on more and more what I knew and I asked more and more detailed questions. He answered every single one of them to a T, and though I don't now know everything, I feel like this thing is going to be solved. I'm going to list everything that I learned from him today, and while none of this is earth-shattering news, it came direct from MINI USA, from someone who sounded very very informed. I will try to keep embellishments to a minimum and stick as closely to the facts as I can. Here goes:

1) The Stumble is well known to MINI (duh!). He actually used the term Stumble before I did (he also used the terms lurch and hiccup, none of which I used).

2) They have no idea how many cars are effected, but they do know that the effects are felt most strongly in the hotter climates, most notably Florida, Texas, and Arizona. Due to this, the vast majority of their testing is being done in Florida right now.

3) The Stumble is ENTIRELY a software issue. As far as they can tell it is in no way mechanical. They are most acutely aware of cars that had it loaded onto them after software updates, but they admit that many many cars start (are pre-loaded) with the stumble.

4) Most dealers DO have older versions of software available and are entirely capable of uploading these older versions onto our ECUs. However, MINIUSA has strongly urged them NOT to do this, because in their own private testing, they have found that this attempted fix frequently worsens the problem
significantly.

5) MINI thinks that they MAY have the fix now. It is being heavily tested in Florida (as noted above). They want to be absolutely certain that it is 100% effective in all scenarios before it is released.

6) I was guaranteed that this fix should be distributed before the end of the calendar year, but it could be very soon.

7) Although the problem seems traceable to a certain very specific software update, the fact remains that two cars can roll off the assembly line back to back and one will have it and another will not. They can not explain this in any way, but they do admit that it happens. Because of this MINI USA is asking that everyone with this problem call them and report their VIN numbers and the number of miles on their vehicle. So pick up the phones, folks. Let them know so that they can try to solve this thing!

While a lot of this may seem like yesterday's news, it really made me feel a lot better after getting off the phone with Mr. Frost. I strongly urged him to report his information to the dealers and to get it distributed as widely and as quickly as possible, and he assured me that he would do everything in his power to make that happen. I told him how angry people were and about the threatened legal actions, and he said that he was aware of all of that. He admitted that MINI USA is very concerned about this problem from every possible standpoint and that they are frantically trying to get it solved. This isn't something that is going to get swept under the rug. I realize that a lot of you have given up hope, and I think that if I had been having this problem since spring of this year, then I would be even more upset than I have been. But that being said, it really looks like they are close on this one, and that a fix should be out very soon. It's good to hear that they're opening up, and that they're actually telling us what is happening. I want to urge everyone again to call 1 866 ASK MINI as soon as you possibly can and report this problem if it is affecting your car so that they can make this fix a reality.

Good luck to everyone, and God bless America!

 

>>Part 2
He admitted that MINI USA is very concerned about this problem from every possible standpoint and that they are frantically trying to get it solved.


Chitown,

Thanks for the info - great reports.

As for the quote above - it may be a little late for the likes of me - but as well as getting the problem solved maybe BMW should think about doing some REAL PR work on this problem. I'm not just talking about finally admitting they know about the problem. Is there anything on offer for those who have put up with this unacceptable situation - ie. extended warrantee for another 2 years or 10

 

Great news! Great reporting! My 2-week old mini-s has the hiccup as well. Clutch disingagement is certainly key to avoiding it but it is noticable often. I wonder if things like techron help? Also I can see how ignition modules may help by altering the timing of the spark. Nology wires promote a shorter duration spark that effects timing...were talking split hairs here but does anyone have nology wires and the STUMBLE?????

 

Maxwell,

First, thank you for calling ASKMINI and thanks for your testing with the stumble issue. I do hope that MINI has a solution, soon, so I don't have to proceed with lemon law. The end of the year isn't going to cut it, though. I just want a car that works, and I want it now. I've waited as long as I plan to wait. It is already getting cooler, here, and the stumble is less severe with the cooler temps. Two weeks ago it was in the 90's, and my car lurched like a bucking bull. I don't want to be stuck with a stumbling car come next spring/summer, and there is NO guarantee from MINI that they will solve this. I was told the same thing you were. Ask them if they will give you a written guarantee that they will solve the issue within a specific time frame, and I bet the answer is NO.


You said MINIUSA said:

3) The Stumble is ENTIRELY a software issue. As far as they can tell it is in no way mechanical. They are most acutely aware of cars that had it loaded onto them after software updates, but they admit that many many cars start (are pre-loaded) with the stumble.

7) Although the problem seems traceable to a certain very specific software update, the fact remains that two cars can roll off the assembly line back to back and one will have it and another will not. They can not explain this in any way, but they do admit that it happens.


How can these two statements both be correct? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a problem. If it is ENTIRELY a software issue, how could two cars coming down the line experience different results if loaded with the same software?

If I had a Windows XP CD and I loaded it onto two identical Dell computers, and one computer functioned, but the other did not, why would I not suspect hardware in this case? If I said it was the software only, I'd be entertaining folly.

If MINI is loading the same software and some cars stumble and some don't, it CANNOT be entirely software. It MUST be some interaction between software and hardware.

I also know of cases where loading new software caused the stumble to appear in a working car, but I contend that it is because the new software is in some way interacting with some hardware/sensor/component that is different than in a MINI that works with the new software loaded.

Do you agree with this line of logic?

Thanks,
JS

 

Thanks Chitown for your persistence with MINI and giving us a comprehensive update. I will try the battery disconnect and see what happens and will be calling MINI today again. I have to say that we have had a couple of cooler mornings here lately and for instance Sunday I was driving the MSC to church and the stumble was as bad as ever when first taking off from the garage. I'm not sure about this temperature stuff, at least from my experience. Anyway, thanks agian for your posts.

 

JS,

I totally hear what you're saying. I see the gap in logic between the two statements, and I have a hard time rectifying them. The only guess that I could make would be that it is a problem with the ECU itself, and perhaps somehow related to the "partial loading" situation that has been discussed elsewhere on this thread. I like your two identical dells with identical OS installation analogy. I think that that is exactly what we're facing here, and it doesn't seem to make any sense.

Further, I understand that for you personally, the end of the year won't cut it. I personally feel much better about it now to have them admit to all this, but I fully understand the position that you and Tokio are taking here. I think that a massive PR campaign is necessary in this situation, and that is exactly what I told him yesterday--hopefully he (and MINI) will take it seriously enough to actually go through with it. If we wouldn't have head the heavy doses of misinformation and dodging of the issue for the past 6+ months, I don't think that any of us would be as angry as we are. Why didn't they handle this coffee mug style?

Best of luck to everyone, especially the "hard-liners"!

Maxwell

 

I think what he meant to say is: The problem is ENTIRELY hardware but we think we can mask it with software hacks.

 

For what it's worth, I'll report my own experience with ASK MINI--I just got off the phone with them.

Called and said I was coming out of the closet as a stumbler and the guy knew immediately what I was talking about. I explained that I was active on the forums and that there are numerous unhappy people and rumblings of legal action en masse--of which he was aware--and that it had been suggested that we all call ASK MINI to report our VIN and mileage. He said that was absolutely the information he needed so I gladly forked it over. After asking about time frame, I was told that THEY had been told that today was final testing of a fix that seems to solve the problem across the board (precisely as they told Maxwell), but that he couldn't give me any more information, as it would "turn up on the boards and [they] would be held to it." He did say, presumably to underscore the fact that they're in final stage testing, that the release could "literally be tomorrow". I told him that I was intensely frustrated by the whole thing, most particularly with the total lack of information. He understood. He then told me that the people on the list with ASK MINI would be notified by their dealers as soon as the fix was released, as a recall. He didn't know or couldn't tell me what caused the problem. He also said, after some nagging, that the fix was designed to run within the EPA parameters for Cali. emissions and did not seem to think that the EPA was the problem getting this fix packaged and disseminated.


Although I hesitantly held out hope after Maxwell's posts, I am feeling even better having gotten almost exactly the same information from a guy who emphatically DID NOT sound like the main voiceover guy. This means that a completely different operator had the same recognition and information and, to me, this means one of two things:

1. The good scenario: MINI really DOES have a fix so they can finally stop stonewalling us, as they've finally got something to actually say about the situation.

or

2. The bad/ugly situation: They think maybe we'll shut up if they just respond positively.

Given the present hostile environment they'd be exceedingly stupid to lie to us, cause I'm giving them until December no matter HOW NICE they are.

That said, the only thing that *kind of* bugs me is his lack of knowledge concerning the cause of the problem. If they really are running final, pre-release tests in Florida, then that must mean they've identified the problem in order to be able to fix it. So perhaps they just haven't passed this info along to their operators, or perhaps it's all a lie. I suppose only time will tell.

And that's all I know. I think it wouldn't hurt if we all got tentatively excited about this, as it really does sound promising.

Or maybe... just maybe... when you call ASK MINI they use a subliminal technique to implant feelings of hope and joy. Like an over-the-phone lobotomy. To buy them time......

 

Did you get the name of this guy? Customer Relations training is a big deal these days and can work miracles in terms of time gained to fix a problem or pacify an angry customer. I've been there and it's called the tone scale. Listen to your customers' tone, classify it on a scale of 1-10, ten being homicidal and then attempt to reduce that scale by at least 2 points. You'd still have a half crazed, fist beating customer but at least they won't shoot you.

If you start out with a fist beating customer, two points lower and you can actually talk to them fairly sensibly. The objective is to make them go away for awhile.

Graham

I hope you had better luck with this guy and he understands what we want.

 

Toast,

Glad to hear that you had a very similar experience to me. I also (perhaps naively) am feeling more and more positive about this. At the very least it sounds like they've actually got a game plan now, which I find to be good news since even as late as last week, it seems like they had none whatsoever. They've begun educating customer service which is a step, however small it might be.

Let's keep it real, and keep it gangsta, and keep our fingers crossed, and keep our attorney's phone numbers handy, just in case!

Maxwell

 

A couple of factors to consider with the Dell/XP analogy. Computers use electrical current to operate, which is generally even and consistent. Cars use gasoline and air which can vary greatly quality and temperature. I recall a post by jstines that mentioned a relationship between temperature and severity of the stumble (I've noticed this too). Also a post sometime ago that speculated that the ECU is coded for European fuel.

Is it possible that it is a indeed solely a software issue that has not taken certain temps and fuel mixes into consideration?

 

Excellent post! It is possible and could play a role. Thanks for bringing this fact to our attention.

However, I know of people in my area who have a well-running MCS and I have a stumbling MCS. I have tried many different gas brands, and none noticeably affect the stumble. So, given this, I can assume that the well-running MCS's and the stumbling MCS's with the same software are running the same gas brands and are in the same temperature zones. I realize this isn't scientific, but it is highly probable that we at some time have run the same gas with the same temperature outside, since we are in such close proximity. So, I maintain that it still cannot be software only.

Thanks for your insights,
JS

 

I called Mini to leave my vin # and mileage.....the phone rep said he didn't know
if this was the final day of testing, but that they were, in fact, in the process of testing cars.......their communication still appears to be inconsistent. Even though I feel very hopeful, I won't stop the Lemon Law process that I started until I drive away from Mini of the Main Line stumble free. Let's all keep our fingers crossed!

 

<<<If you start out with a fist beating customer, two points lower and you can actually talk to them fairly sensibly. The objective is to make them go away for awhile.>>>


:evil: :evil: :evil:

I was probably an 8 when I called--albeit a diplomatic and tactful 8--but I feel that I may have hung up around a 4 or 5. Which was partially why I wondered if they did a phone lobotamy. I full of the light and goodness that is MINI. Eegads--I've been modified!

And... the guy (whose name was--presumably still is--Richard) had a very quaint british accent. This may have added to my 4-5 point decline.


I've been driven deranged by the frustration of it all. I'm off to laugh at nothing and smile maniacally at small children.

 

My Conversation with Ask MINI today

Me , Hello I'm calling to tell you that my car has the stumble.

MINI Guy, What?

Me , You know the stumble from 1st to 2nd.

MINI Guy, Did you take it to your dealer?

Me , Umm Yes, and they installed CD whatever and it made the problem worse.

MINI Guy, Hmmm that's strange.

Me, it is?

MINI Guy, Our tecs are working on it I'm sorry your having this problem.

I think MINI should have the dealers handle the complaint with something else besides ( yes allot of people are having this problem and we are waiting on a fix) If I did not call today no record of this ongoing problem would of happened.... MINI Guy did not ask for my mileage and I have heard the Tecs are working on it from the dealer and MINI since the day I bought this car....Now that I got that rant of my chest .......
When disconnecting the battery well this mess with the service schedule timer?

 

Not that I want to beat a dead horse but, what explains the varying severity of the problem in the exact same car? After my car has been in the sun all day, I have a much more pronounced stumble than after being in the garage all night. Perhaps the software is miscalculating or misinterpreting the factors.

 

justjohn... I sincerely hope, from the bottom of my deeply annoyed heart, that you just happened to get the maintenance man that the actual operator asked to man the phones while he went to take a pee.