After reading through many many many posts on the stumble, the yo-yo, the cold start trouble and now the brick wall, I am wondering why my October 2002 build (bought in Feb 03) MCS with 5500 miles on it has Never had any of these problems. Not even a bit.

Would be good to try to figure why some cars do very well with no trouble and see what is working right.
Shortly after buying the car I did change to the Madness intake. I have never changed software version.
What else am I doing right. I'm not planning to change my software at the dealership when everything is doing so well.
no complaints from me- I thought those who read this thread should know that this is not a universal problem.
This weekend I will be seeing a bunch of MCS owners in my area and I will ask each of them about these problems and see how many have it. My gut feeling is that it is a known problem but not in the majority of MCS. I'll post again if I find I am in error.

Good luck with all of you that are working hard to correct this.
For those with stumble, if you test drive a new MCS, do you feel the same problem exists?

 

>>If the factory were to change those specs after the fact of initial certification, they'd have to recertify the car with the state...and this is likely to be very difficult if not virtually impossible for emissions.

I think you are 100% correct. The BMW / MINI rep who drove my car with me back in June verified it. He said "We've got the fix coming, but it's then got to satisfy all the government emissions people." I didn't think much more about it until reading the very lucid way you've explained it. That would substantiate why the software fix for stumble and yo-yo can't be released until at least December... It'll take at least that long to get everything recertified (if at all!).

If everyone who has these problems were to directly threaten "lemon law" repercussions, I suspect MINI would act a little more responsibly. I know I'm qualified for Lemon Law action, since I've taken my MCS in 6 times for the stumb/e / yo-yo and have had no satisfaction... including three software upgrades that only tended to amplify the problems. Randy's PowerChips remapping is the only thing that's had an impact so far...and even that isn't 100%

Cheers!

 

>>For those with stumble, if you test drive a new MCS, do you feel the same problem exists?

Facts that I know...

I was doing some work on a brand new MCS for a customer and the car stumbled just like mine just driving it from the parking lot into the service bay.

I have driven several MCs and none of them, manual or CVT, had the stumble and were sweeeeet to drive!

Randy's Powerchip mapping makes the stumble somewhat milder, but it's still there. Powerchip wants a stumble car to analyze (free rent car for any takers).

MINI had my ECU for 10 days and could not fix it.

Randy told me that, with the testing gear Powerchip has, he is confident they can fix it.

The car only stumbles in first gear, leading to the conclusion that it is linked to the starter lockout and the clutch position.

Question...

Is the starter commanded by the ECU to start the car based on the clutch position or is it a mechanical switch? This question/theory has intrigued me ever since I discovered that the stumble occurs at the exact same position of clutch engagement in first gear. I know this now because I know exactly when to depress the clutch slightly to reduce the lurch. I think this ECU "knows" the clutch position and gets confused and I think it has something to do with the starter protection sensor. (The thing/device/switch whatever that requires you to depress the cluch in order to start the car). I think all this logic goes through the ECU.

Graham

_________________
'03 MCS, Madness Intake, Rear Sway Bar, Control Arms, H-Sports, QS Exhaust, Alta Pulley, Powerchip ECU remap, & Big Bore Throttle Body

 

Minihune, my 11/02 build 03 MCS didn't have stumble either until I had Mini of HI upgrade the software to version 32 a few months ago- I could kick myself for doing this. I didn't hear of any issues until after i had new software.
As soon as i pulled out of the dealer onto street I immediately noticed stumble at 1900 rpm- also has stumble when slowing down with foot off gas at 1900 RPM in 2nd gear. They installed version 34 few weeks back but didn't change stumble at all. Waiting for fix. Don't upgrade your software -yours drives nice & smooth.

 

Hello, fellow stumblers. I was happy to read the action in this thread in the last 48 hours. I really like jsun's latest theory, and I'm very happy to hear that the aftermarket (Powerchip) is looking specfically at this problem.

In response to Minihune: I would think that the only reason that you don't have the stumble is that you've never upgraded the software. What I still can't explain is why I have the stumble, yet Dot-Scott has none, when his car was built only three weeks *before* mine. One would assume that we're running the same software, no?

A little update of my own:

I spoke to Peter Witt of MINI Division, who I believe is mostly brand-oriented in focus, but who is very concerned with all MINI issues. I met him at a Chicago MINI meeting this week, and before leaving I gave him my card and told him that I'd buy him dinner if he could fix my stumble.

I had a message when I came in to work the next day--he had left it at 9:30 in the morning *the following day*. He had spoke to someone (department name I can't remember at the moment) who was involved in service and pretty high up. That guy had told him about the "semi-loaded" issues that we've heard before, as far as the software not fully loading the first time, and that subsequent flashes may fix the problem. He told me to go to my dealer and ask for a reflash ASAP.

So I call my S.A. and tell him that I'm coming in tomorrow to get re-flashed, and he tells me that he really really doesn't want to do that because they have a LOT of stumble experience at that dealership (Bill Jacobs in Naperville, IL if anyone's interested). One of their dealers' MCS apparently has a nasty case of the stumble, and they have tried fresh software flashes and have actually noticed a significant degradation in performance and/or the newly termed "Brick Wall" phenomenon, whereby the car will essentially DSC-style kill the engine for a second or two upon clutch release. Since this seems like an even worse problem, or at the very least more dangerous, he is strongly urging people to avoid unnecessary software upgrades. He said that he was told that they would have something in 30 days. He was told this 30 days ago.

So here we are again. We don't have a solution, but I think that the theories are getting more precise at the very least.

BMW/MINI Division: if you're reading this, could you please send the software (if you have it) to those of us that aren't in goofball states, please? (No offense Californians.) It's just that, for those of us who don't have unncessary, overreactive emissions testing, it seems a little unfair that you might be holding out on us. Or if this isn't the case, why don't you at least tell us SOMETHING: your general acknowledgement of the problem and an assessment of progress made toward a resolution. It sure would cut down on the conspiracy theories if nothing else.

 

Shkeller55,

I think the message you're referring to on MINI2 was posted by me. I have already filed a NHTSA safety complaint. I am lucky enough to have all of the worst symptoms, hiccup/stumbles, bogging down/brick wall, yo-yo, surging, etc.

See ya,
JS

 

>>>>
>>Shkeller55,
>>
>>I think the message you're referring to on MINI2 was posted by me. I have already filed a NHTSA safety complaint. I am lucky enough to have all of the worst symptoms, hiccup/stumbles, bogging down/brick wall, yo-yo, surging, etc.
>>
>>See ya,
>>JS


I'll sign that with you!

R

 

Just got off the phone with my dealer. He said:
So, for the time being I have to deal with the stumble in my 11/02 build '03 MC. I just wish that it wasn't so hot. it's not near as bad with the a/c on. More as I hear more...

 

I may be psyching myself out here, but I will SWEAR that the low RPM performance with AC on has gotten considerably worse since I left Pittsburgh 1 month and 8k miles ago. And occasionally, without the AC, it will still lug really badly and then rev up for the butt-rocket effect--as if I HAD the AC on. This confuses me. This also frustrates me. It may be psychosomatic, though, or perhaps I'm just noticing it more since I've had the AC on far more often than I ever do at home.

Oh, AND... when I get the yo-yo, it's usually a slow nyyyyyyah....nyyyyyyah....nyyyyyyah until the revs come up, but today it did a machine gun lurch (nya nya nya nya nya), almost like I was on really uneven pavement... only I wasn't. Which do you guys have?

oops... still one more thing: HOW do you guys get your dealers to care? I've talked to the service guy about the stumble every time I"ve had my car in and all he'll say is "Yeah... yeah... we still haven't heard anything on that". No lists. No german engineers. No nothing.

Blah!

 

>>oops... still one more thing: HOW do you guys get your dealers to care?

Get one who is capable of caring. If your S.A. is a jerk (and it sounds that way), you should talk to his boss. If that doesn't work, then start calling national until someone starts caring and/or people start getting fired...

Regarding A/C: I have noticed the problem as of late. I had friends in town (yes, 4 people makes the car not so fast) and it was in the 90's here. And humid. With the A/C on, I would guess that I was throwing away about 40 hp.

Does anybody out there have easy Dyno access? Even a little G-Tech data would be interesting. I would like to see HP numbers of A/C off versus A/C on...

 

My Aug 02 build 02 MCS does not have any of these problem to the extent that other seem to have. I have a bit of "bog" when launching at low RPMs and slight "yo-yo", both are worse with AC on and the bog has improved slightly with the pulley mod. Also, around 8 or 9 k miles cold starting began taking 2-3 seconds versus just a couple of turnovers when newer. I am still on the original software because the dealer said the new software would not improve these problems.
I am due for my 10K service soon (1st oil change I did myself at 3K).
Advice please: Should I have the software upgraded or not when I go in? I don't want to make my slight problems worse by upgrading the sofware. (Sounds like a Microshaft Windblows problem... upgrade and the problems just get worse.)

 

Advice please: Should I have the software upgraded or not when I go in? I don't want to make my slight problems worse by upgrading the sofware. (Sounds like a Microshaft Windblows problem... upgrade and the problems just get worse.)


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Was that clear enough?

R

 

I would recommend caution and not installing updated software if you are otherwise doing OK. At least for now until
a solution can be found. I have no intention to change my software since I am OK. I checked around at the last MINI meeting in my area and maybe less than half of the MCS owners have stumble. My best guess is between 40 and 60%.

 

Orbhot: Don't even THINK about it. I would recommend covering the port with duct tape and a friendly reminder not to touch your software. A 2-3 second crank is a lot more desirable than running into an invisible brick wall from time to time.

minihune: 40-60% of all MCS owners sounds about right. But what do you figure the percentage is for people who have "upgraded" their software or had their MINIs built in the second quarter of 2003? I'm guessing it's a lot closer to 75% or more...just my thoughts, though.

 

Hey Orb, just in case those guys didn't make it clear enough:

MY GOD, MAN, DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!

I had your problems--very moderate versions of what I now have and Oh! What I wouldn't give to have them back!!! Upgraded to fix the sniggling little things, IMMEDIATELY noticed launch-you-through-the-windscreen stumble, but it ran like a champ at low RPMs for about 100 +/- miles before reverting and then some.

And stress to your dealer that you don't want it fooled around with, although, by now, they have to know to stop upgrades.... wait, what am I saying? They don't have to know anything--and they've proved this several times over.

 

Thanks for the response guys. I like the ductape over the port idea, or maybe a custom sticker similar to those big STOP stickers that come with K&N air filters.

 

Anybody know if the new 2004 MCS will have the stumble? The yo-yo? The brick wall? and whatever other terms are used :smile: ?

 

I thought it was a "caracteristic" of the car - at least that's what my dealer told me. :evil:

 

^^^ Eegads! A "characteristic"????????????

Sure... in the way large, itchy welts are a "characteristic" of poison ivy... or a headache is a "characteristic" of a nasty hangover...

Bad MA! Bad!

 

I don't think any of us are qualified to determine whether or not the 2004 will have the Stumble considering the fact that NO ONE HAS DRIVEN A 2004. I'm sorry, but this is sort of a silly question, Moby. It seems--based on all your recent questions--like you've got cold find about buying a MINI. Maybe you should just wait a few more months until all of the kinks are worked out and you feel more comfortable, no?

 

>>Anybody know if the new 2004 MCS will have the stumble? The yo-yo? The brick wall? and whatever other terms are used :smile: ?

Oh yeah, it comes standard (didn't you see the cute flash animation about it on the MINIUSA website? ).

Otherwise, buy the optional aftermarket intake ($200), pulley ($400), and ECU upgrade ($1000), and you can get the pretty-close-to-minimal-stumble-'cause-it's-now-been-covered-up-by-completely-changing-the-performance-characteristics version of the car.

 

I've posted this on MINI2, and I thought I'd share my observations on MCO:

I'm a new user to this forum, but I've been reading the posts for quite a while. Count me in as one of the many experiencing the 3 main problems in this thread (1st gear stumble, 1st gear bog, Yo-yo).

I wanted to bring up an observation about the 1st gear bog that I noticed and I don't think has been mentioned yet in this thread:

When starting on a hill, the 1st gear bog occurs with a MUCH greater frequency than starting on level ground. One time, while starting on a REALLY steep hill, the motor bogged down completely and I had to depress the clutch and roll back to more level ground before starting off again.

Anybody else notice the bog when starting on hills?

 

Welcome to MCO, njred!

Pardon if I perhaps don't understand your question, but it seems that the association you're making is akin to my noticing that my watch often says 11pm when it's dark...and then my wondering if my watch is responsible for the darkness.

Yes, the bog is worse on hills...but this is due to the fact that what causes the bog is a lack of low-end torque, a problem with clutch engagement, faulty traction control programming (which cuts engine power)...or a combination of some or all. So of course it's more apparent on hills when you're looking for quick clutch takeup and torque to get you moving up the hill w/o rolling backwards.

So welcome to the "stumble/bog/yo-yo explorers' club" It seems that BMW wants us to keep guessing...and maybe someday one of us will figure it out.

 

<<<So welcome to the "stumble/bog/yo-yo explorers' club" It seems that BMW wants us to keep guessing...and maybe someday one of us will figure it out.>>>

Do you think they'll give us a cookie when we do?

 

My car will only stumble while making sharp turns in first gear taking off right after a low rpm low power start. If I take off from a light with my wheels straight, even at low rpm's I've never had stumble. The reduction pulley made take off a lot easier. I should also point out the stumble doesn't happen every time and is infrequent enough that I simply ignore it. The yo yo hapens only on easy acceleration and climbing into the 3000 rpm range, when I stump on the gas for take off it's just pure clean acceleration. I won't be accepting any ecu upgrades from anybody who is not Eric from Helix.