Stumble
Holy Moly! I've been driving my new used June 2002 MCS (13.5K miles) for 5 days now, and I'd already been complaining of all "the symptoms"....
1) I thought I knew how to drive a stick?
2) I thought I was going to get killed pulling out into traffic!**!!
3) I just love the precise handling of this car, when at speed, but
what can I do to fix the "little" problem of starting from a stop?
4) If I pull out reeaallly slowly, (a little worried about my clutch technique-- are these expensive???) I can do it smoothly, but JEEZE a couple times I thought it was going to die--Had to back out from entering a busy road 3 Times!!! (and that reverse isn't where it usually is, though I like it :wink )
Now I'm laughing (ok, hysterically...might sound like WEEPING)
out loud..
) and educating total newbies like myself to car stuff, moreover MCS/performance car stuff...
Anyways, this thread has brought my shopping to a total stop until I see what MINI is going to do for me (us)...And if need be, (sadly), I'll be ready to gulp write, call and carry on in a loud, grating frequency...meanwhile its back to lurking.
thanks ya'all, PS I'm in Sacramento, California, home of the stringent regulations, and its getting screwy here even by our standards! Motor on, Jenni
1) I thought I knew how to drive a stick?
2) I thought I was going to get killed pulling out into traffic!**!!
3) I just love the precise handling of this car, when at speed, but
what can I do to fix the "little" problem of starting from a stop?
4) If I pull out reeaallly slowly, (a little worried about my clutch technique-- are these expensive???) I can do it smoothly, but JEEZE a couple times I thought it was going to die--Had to back out from entering a busy road 3 Times!!! (and that reverse isn't where it usually is, though I like it :wink )
Now I'm laughing (ok, hysterically...might sound like WEEPING)
out loud..
) and educating total newbies like myself to car stuff, moreover MCS/performance car stuff...Anyways, this thread has brought my shopping to a total stop until I see what MINI is going to do for me (us)...And if need be, (sadly), I'll be ready to gulp write, call and carry on in a loud, grating frequency...meanwhile its back to lurking.
thanks ya'all, PS I'm in Sacramento, California, home of the stringent regulations, and its getting screwy here even by our standards! Motor on, Jenni
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
On August 24, jsun writes:
>>Pardon if I perhaps don't understand your question, but it seems that the association you're making is akin to my noticing that my watch often says 11pm when it's dark...and then my wondering if my watch is responsible for the darkness.
The fact that a hill start makes the bog condition more apparant was not my observation. I was talking about the FREQUENCY of the bog condition, which (based on my observation) is greater (happens more often) on a hill start versus a level ground start.
The lack of low end torque and/or clutch engagement does not seem to be the issue in my opinion. There seems to be a deliberate, excessive and prolonged retardation of the spark and/or fuel/air delivery during the bog condition and it happens whether starting on a hill or on level ground.
Your explanation of faulty traction control programming still seems like a plausible explanation, though.
My experience on the REALLY steep hill seemed very strange. The bog prevented the car from moving up the hill at all. The clutch engagement was fine, but the engine simply bogged down until I had to de-clutch (or the engine would have stalled). This is very abnormal. I've been driving manual tranny cars since I got my learner's permit (over 22 years ago) and I've lived in hilly areas most of my life. The bog behavior of my MCS (particularly on hills) is unlike anything I've experienced.
I also own an Audi A4 Avant with a 5 speed manual tranny and I've never had any issues with bogging on this car. My A4 exhibits (by design) low end spark/air/fuel/cam lift retardation when starting off, but it's progressive and changes as I press on the accelerator. The MCS bog seems independent of accelerator action. Maybe the engine control system is not learning to apportion the fuel mixture and/or spark timing correctly when starting off. If this is the case, it's definitely a programming issue.
Still guessing, I guess.......
>>Pardon if I perhaps don't understand your question, but it seems that the association you're making is akin to my noticing that my watch often says 11pm when it's dark...and then my wondering if my watch is responsible for the darkness.
The fact that a hill start makes the bog condition more apparant was not my observation. I was talking about the FREQUENCY of the bog condition, which (based on my observation) is greater (happens more often) on a hill start versus a level ground start.
The lack of low end torque and/or clutch engagement does not seem to be the issue in my opinion. There seems to be a deliberate, excessive and prolonged retardation of the spark and/or fuel/air delivery during the bog condition and it happens whether starting on a hill or on level ground.
Your explanation of faulty traction control programming still seems like a plausible explanation, though.
My experience on the REALLY steep hill seemed very strange. The bog prevented the car from moving up the hill at all. The clutch engagement was fine, but the engine simply bogged down until I had to de-clutch (or the engine would have stalled). This is very abnormal. I've been driving manual tranny cars since I got my learner's permit (over 22 years ago) and I've lived in hilly areas most of my life. The bog behavior of my MCS (particularly on hills) is unlike anything I've experienced.
I also own an Audi A4 Avant with a 5 speed manual tranny and I've never had any issues with bogging on this car. My A4 exhibits (by design) low end spark/air/fuel/cam lift retardation when starting off, but it's progressive and changes as I press on the accelerator. The MCS bog seems independent of accelerator action. Maybe the engine control system is not learning to apportion the fuel mixture and/or spark timing correctly when starting off. If this is the case, it's definitely a programming issue.
Still guessing, I guess.......
>>My experience on the REALLY steep hill seemed very strange. The bog prevented the car from moving up the hill at all. The clutch engagement was fine, but the engine simply bogged down until I had to de-clutch (or the engine would have stalled). This is very abnormal. I've been driving manual tranny cars since I got my learner's permit (over 22 years ago) and I've lived in hilly areas most of my life. The bog behavior of my MCS (particularly on hills) is unlike anything I've experienced.
>>
Yeah, I've definitely experienced exactly the condition you describe. I have to drive up a steep incline to exit my parking lot at work. At the top of the incline, I have to pull out into a busy street. Let's just say that this can be "exciting" to say the least when the bog kicks in and tries to kill power...as traffic bears down on me.
I too haven't experienced anything like this in a manual tranny car since I was first learning how to drive one about 30 years ago.But what I CAN say is that three things seem to help lessen if not altogether aleviate this problem.
1) Turn off the AC. This seems to increase power just enough so that the problem is less apparent.
2) Turn off DSC. This also kills traction control which definitely is related to at least the frequency of the problem.
3) Install an intake. The intake definitely improves engine breathing...and for whatever reason (hence lots of guessing), this helps overall.
I can say that since I've learned how to do the above 3 things, I haven't had the crap scared out of me by pulling into traffic in my MCS. Before that, it happened all of the time.
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
On August 25, jsun wrote:
>>3) Install an intake. The intake definitely improves engine breathing...and for whatever reason (hence lots of guessing), this helps overall.
Are you talking about the stock MCS air intake (airbox)? If so, did you replace it and the air filter with an after-market one? Any adverse effects on gas mileage?
>>3) Install an intake. The intake definitely improves engine breathing...and for whatever reason (hence lots of guessing), this helps overall.
Are you talking about the stock MCS air intake (airbox)? If so, did you replace it and the air filter with an after-market one? Any adverse effects on gas mileage?
5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 669
Likes: 7
From: Colorado
njredmcs, i have installed the madness cold air intake. this replaces the drop in stock air filter. It comes with heat-shield and is said to add 7-9hp. I felt a difference especially in throttle response. Car seems to be smoother at lower rpms when slowing down also. Check out Madness's site, or Alta's site for some info on there intakes. I have not noticed a change in fuel mileage though some have said that they are getting better mpg with aftermarket intake. the MCS responds very well to a CAI and i would highly recommend it. Its about 260 bucks and takes 20 min to install even for a dummy. 
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 956
Likes: 1
From: Lower Merion, PA (Philly)
I think EVERYONE with this problem should call Mini USA (1-866-ASK MINI) and file
a complaint. They are passing information about the number of calls onto their engineers so they know how many people are effected. Customer service says a fix should be out by December, but they'd like to have it out sooner if possible. Include
yourself in the count! I installed a Pilo cold air intake and it sure helps alot.
a complaint. They are passing information about the number of calls onto their engineers so they know how many people are effected. Customer service says a fix should be out by December, but they'd like to have it out sooner if possible. Include
yourself in the count!
I installed a Pilo cold air intake and it sure helps alot.
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Columbia, SC
I've been in contact with two dealers, the "ask mini" phone folks 3 times and Mini USA customer service. No good answers from anyone. One dealer swore that reflashing the ECU would solve the problem (which it didn't.) I've taken the first steps towards securing consumer rights through the Lemon Laws for my area. Has anyone else started down the "Lemon Law" path? Any idea who you contact once the conditions to invoke the Lemon Law are met (many states only require two failed attempts to fix the same problem....)
Love the car, can't keep it if it doesn't work, don't want it if Mini can't fix it....
Love the car, can't keep it if it doesn't work, don't want it if Mini can't fix it....
2nd Gear
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: Ft.Lauderdale
I am going ahead with Lemon Law. Mini USA say they have no fix (I have it in writing from them) so there would not be a requirement for multiple visits. Nobody should have to pay for these problems that BMW knew they were selling us.
_________________
'03 S DS
_________________
'03 S DS
2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: California
Is there any such thing as *second* gear stumble? Because if so, I think I've got it.
I've got an Oct '02 build MCS with its original ECU programming. I do not have the classic first-gear stumble, but I do have yo-yo. It's not too bad, but a pulley and intake did not help it, and the EVOTech ECU was all but useless to me when I tried it out. (Little power gain, even richer than stock)
Anyway, I'm getting increasingly suspicious that I've got "a touch o' the bog" just as I shift into *second* gear. Not first. Right as the clutch engages. I had been blaming my clutch technique, coupled with the MCS's slow throttle response, but I've been paying closer attention as of late, and now I'm not so sure it's "just me".
The effect is hard to describe. I accelerate in first up to around 4k RPM. After shifting into 2nd and re-engaging the clutch I always feel a little "gap" in the acceleration. Sort of like there's a split second of normal acceleration, then a gap, then a semi-abrupt resumption of acceleration. Now I know, this is very similar to what happens if you have poor shifting technique. Like if you released the clutch a little too quickly, or didn't get back on the gas smoothly enough.
But I've been driving stick for 25 years, and I'm typically very smooth. I've tried to vary my technique to eliminate the problem. If I give the car extra gas before releasing the clutch, I don't get as much of a bog, but that also makes for a sloppy sounding shift. About the only way to totally avoid the problem is to engage the clutch with zero throttle (rev matching so the car just coasts) and then gennnntly add throttle. I also don't notice the problem if I'm accelerating flat out. (Chirp'n it in second.)
Anybody else have this problem?
-Dave
I've got an Oct '02 build MCS with its original ECU programming. I do not have the classic first-gear stumble, but I do have yo-yo. It's not too bad, but a pulley and intake did not help it, and the EVOTech ECU was all but useless to me when I tried it out. (Little power gain, even richer than stock)
Anyway, I'm getting increasingly suspicious that I've got "a touch o' the bog" just as I shift into *second* gear. Not first. Right as the clutch engages. I had been blaming my clutch technique, coupled with the MCS's slow throttle response, but I've been paying closer attention as of late, and now I'm not so sure it's "just me".
The effect is hard to describe. I accelerate in first up to around 4k RPM. After shifting into 2nd and re-engaging the clutch I always feel a little "gap" in the acceleration. Sort of like there's a split second of normal acceleration, then a gap, then a semi-abrupt resumption of acceleration. Now I know, this is very similar to what happens if you have poor shifting technique. Like if you released the clutch a little too quickly, or didn't get back on the gas smoothly enough.
But I've been driving stick for 25 years, and I'm typically very smooth. I've tried to vary my technique to eliminate the problem. If I give the car extra gas before releasing the clutch, I don't get as much of a bog, but that also makes for a sloppy sounding shift. About the only way to totally avoid the problem is to engage the clutch with zero throttle (rev matching so the car just coasts) and then gennnntly add throttle. I also don't notice the problem if I'm accelerating flat out. (Chirp'n it in second.)
Anybody else have this problem?
-Dave
4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL (Skokie)
>>On August 25, jsun wrote:
>>
>>>>3) Install an intake. The intake definitely improves engine breathing...and for whatever reason (hence lots of guessing), this helps overall.
>>
>>Are you talking about the stock MCS air intake (airbox)? If so, did you replace it and the air filter with an after-market one? Any adverse effects on gas mileage?
I did the K&N drop-in Filter and noticed an improvement, no "stumble" but it was still sluggish at 1-2k RPM.
I just installed a new Intake entirely and it's GONE!
THE FIX:
>>
>>>>3) Install an intake. The intake definitely improves engine breathing...and for whatever reason (hence lots of guessing), this helps overall.
>>
>>Are you talking about the stock MCS air intake (airbox)? If so, did you replace it and the air filter with an after-market one? Any adverse effects on gas mileage?
I did the K&N drop-in Filter and noticed an improvement, no "stumble" but it was still sluggish at 1-2k RPM.
I just installed a new Intake entirely and it's GONE!
THE FIX:
Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,251
Likes: 0
From: San Antonio, TX
I completely agree with Graham, and I would be willing to offer 2:1 odds that it's going to come back in the very near future.
Here are some other thoughts that I had about this in response to a different thread...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Virtually ALL MCS's that have software either upgraded or initially installed after Spring of 2003 have the Stumble. Virtually ALL MCS's that do NOT have software installed or upgraded after Spring of 2003 do NOT have the Stumble. No, I can't prove it, but this comes from extensive reading of these forums and extensive discussions with MINI owners throughout the Midwest. For a while there, I thought that June-and later-build MCS's were not experiencing the Stumble (check out my Stumble survey thread); and it's still possible that there is a lesser likelihood now to get a new MCS with Stumble "pre-installed."
At the very least, I feel confident in stating that MCS's with software installed during April and May of 2003 have the Stumble. Period. I really wish BMW/MINI would come along and explain why this thing exists and how extensive its existence is, but I'm guessing that legal won't let them. Wouldn't it be nice if they would come on this website, admit that it exists, admit that they're working on it, and give a reasonable ETA of when the fix would happen?
Here are some other thoughts that I had about this in response to a different thread...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Virtually ALL MCS's that have software either upgraded or initially installed after Spring of 2003 have the Stumble. Virtually ALL MCS's that do NOT have software installed or upgraded after Spring of 2003 do NOT have the Stumble. No, I can't prove it, but this comes from extensive reading of these forums and extensive discussions with MINI owners throughout the Midwest. For a while there, I thought that June-and later-build MCS's were not experiencing the Stumble (check out my Stumble survey thread); and it's still possible that there is a lesser likelihood now to get a new MCS with Stumble "pre-installed."
At the very least, I feel confident in stating that MCS's with software installed during April and May of 2003 have the Stumble. Period. I really wish BMW/MINI would come along and explain why this thing exists and how extensive its existence is, but I'm guessing that legal won't let them. Wouldn't it be nice if they would come on this website, admit that it exists, admit that they're working on it, and give a reasonable ETA of when the fix would happen?
Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,251
Likes: 0
From: San Antonio, TX
Just to kill some time:
Can anybody discuss the ECU's potential to "learn"? We've discussed intakes healing the Stumble only to have it return with a few hundred miles. We've heard of ECU's shipped to England, which upon their return seem to fix the Stumble, only to have it return within a few hundred miles. We've heard of boosting Octane either with Techron or with 100 Octane race gas and it seems to get better, but folks, the Stumble comes back.
I tried filling up yesterday with about half 100 Octane and half 93. I swear to you that the Stumble seemed to be virtually non-existent while I drove around town. Then I drove about 200 miles, and stopped to stretch my legs. When I got back in the car, guess what! Stumble city.
So is it just our imagination when we try quick fixes (or even not-so-quick fixes), and they seem to work? Is it just the placebo effect for the short term? Or is it really getting better, but the ECU adjusts to compensate. If it is the latter, then I really feel like it has something to do with Fuel/Air systems...
Discuss!!!
Maxwell
Can anybody discuss the ECU's potential to "learn"? We've discussed intakes healing the Stumble only to have it return with a few hundred miles. We've heard of ECU's shipped to England, which upon their return seem to fix the Stumble, only to have it return within a few hundred miles. We've heard of boosting Octane either with Techron or with 100 Octane race gas and it seems to get better, but folks, the Stumble comes back.
I tried filling up yesterday with about half 100 Octane and half 93. I swear to you that the Stumble seemed to be virtually non-existent while I drove around town. Then I drove about 200 miles, and stopped to stretch my legs. When I got back in the car, guess what! Stumble city.
So is it just our imagination when we try quick fixes (or even not-so-quick fixes), and they seem to work? Is it just the placebo effect for the short term? Or is it really getting better, but the ECU adjusts to compensate. If it is the latter, then I really feel like it has something to do with Fuel/Air systems...
Discuss!!!
Maxwell
2nd Gear
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: Ft.Lauderdale
Likewise - I don't buy it that an intake is going to put an end to our problems - I have a Rogue and it made no difference at all other than better throttle response in general.
What happened to phobol and the mystery tour and ESP in Palm Beach that gave his car to BMW for 3 weeks to do some testing???
where's the results? what happened?
_________________
'03 S DS
What happened to phobol and the mystery tour and ESP in Palm Beach that gave his car to BMW for 3 weeks to do some testing???
where's the results? what happened?_________________
'03 S DS
Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,251
Likes: 0
From: San Antonio, TX
(Copied and pasted from another thread...)
>>Which means if I save my original file and then use it to flash another person's stumble MCS then that should fix their troubles? Does this sound correct or is my software only good for my MCS and no other?
I've never thought about that before. Since the aftermarket is able to download software and then upload it again, it would only make sense that I could take my buddy Scott's car to Perfect Power, get them to download his software, and then get them to upload it to mine! Perhaps the aftermarket can do a quick end run around the problem. **NUDGE TO ALL MCO SPONSORS** We really should try this!
I'm going to call Perfect Power tomorrow and see what they think about this. I would think that places would be willing to do it on the cheap, considering that all you'd be using is their laptop/hard drive/cable and not actually utilizing any aftermarket gear...you'd basically just need to pay them for "labor" and not for any "parts" no?
>>Which means if I save my original file and then use it to flash another person's stumble MCS then that should fix their troubles? Does this sound correct or is my software only good for my MCS and no other?
I've never thought about that before. Since the aftermarket is able to download software and then upload it again, it would only make sense that I could take my buddy Scott's car to Perfect Power, get them to download his software, and then get them to upload it to mine! Perhaps the aftermarket can do a quick end run around the problem. **NUDGE TO ALL MCO SPONSORS** We really should try this!
I'm going to call Perfect Power tomorrow and see what they think about this. I would think that places would be willing to do it on the cheap, considering that all you'd be using is their laptop/hard drive/cable and not actually utilizing any aftermarket gear...you'd basically just need to pay them for "labor" and not for any "parts" no?
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,365
Likes: 2
From: Yinzer in Exile
^^ question about that, since it sounds interesting...
This would, I assume, void the manufacturer warranty? Cause if the "learning" potential is there, could it not relearn the stumble? Since that's essentially what they all did in the first place--some people brought home MCSs that were fine, only to have the stumble appear. Others had upgrades that worked... for a limited time. So, if we still aren't entirely certain that the problem isn't derived from the incomplete loading of new software by the ECUs, would it really behoove any of us to attempt an upgrade which would then void our warranty only to have the stumble return as it has in the past?
Anyone follow that? There was a great deal of stream-of-consciousness rationale going on there
This would, I assume, void the manufacturer warranty? Cause if the "learning" potential is there, could it not relearn the stumble? Since that's essentially what they all did in the first place--some people brought home MCSs that were fine, only to have the stumble appear. Others had upgrades that worked... for a limited time. So, if we still aren't entirely certain that the problem isn't derived from the incomplete loading of new software by the ECUs, would it really behoove any of us to attempt an upgrade which would then void our warranty only to have the stumble return as it has in the past?
Anyone follow that? There was a great deal of stream-of-consciousness rationale going on there
Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,251
Likes: 0
From: San Antonio, TX
What I was talking about was uploading someone else's STOCK software that doesn't stumble (i.e. an older version) onto my ECU. So there is no risk of warranty voiding...you're still using stock software...
BUT...here's an unfortunate answer from another thread:
Our ECU software has specific serial-number based coding on it which supposedly cannot be simply replaced with someone else's software. This is apparently why we have to upload our own software and have that tweaked by the aftermarket person to actually get an ECU upgrade from Randy or whomever.
My question still remains...would it be possible for a tuner to download stock MINI software (that doesn't stumble)...duct tape my serial number or whatever onto it, and then upload it onto my ECU for a stock, stumble-free ride? Just wondering...
BUT...here's an unfortunate answer from another thread:
Our ECU software has specific serial-number based coding on it which supposedly cannot be simply replaced with someone else's software. This is apparently why we have to upload our own software and have that tweaked by the aftermarket person to actually get an ECU upgrade from Randy or whomever.
My question still remains...would it be possible for a tuner to download stock MINI software (that doesn't stumble)...duct tape my serial number or whatever onto it, and then upload it onto my ECU for a stock, stumble-free ride? Just wondering...
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,796
Likes: 0
From: New York
Does anyone know if the CVT has the stumble/poor idle? Cause mine does. I have the latest software, 33.2 but unfortunatley I was told it didnt work on all CVTs. Some dont take right. I have the stumble when I am in stop and go traffic and also the poor idle shows up about once a month, where the car shudders at a light.
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,365
Likes: 2
From: Yinzer in Exile
Ah... k, I understand now, Chi. Though I'd still question if having an aftermarket person deal with the software issues would void the warranty BUT if it can't be done then it's a nonissue, I suppose.
:smile:
:smile:
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,365
Likes: 2
From: Yinzer in Exile
Out of curiosity, has anyone considered a class action lawsuit? I'd be leary since I think litigation gets a bit out of hand sometimes but, if MINIUSA keeps flogging consumers with the ignorant stick, could it even be a viable option? To force their hand, more than anything. I'm sure most people (myself included) aren't interested in a financial settlement, just the ability to drive their cars properly...
4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
From: California
>>*BUMP*
>>
>>Hey there. I just wanted to report that my MCS still stumbles.
>>
>>
Me too, Chi. Don't you feel like although we are now up to 19 pages on this thumble thread alone, it has lost a lot of steam? I used to come on here and check every single day and check for updates. Not anymore. I feel resigned to having this stumble for ever. Mission accomplished for MINIUSA?
Ken
>>
>>Hey there. I just wanted to report that my MCS still stumbles.
>>
>>
Me too, Chi. Don't you feel like although we are now up to 19 pages on this thumble thread alone, it has lost a lot of steam? I used to come on here and check every single day and check for updates. Not anymore. I feel resigned to having this stumble for ever. Mission accomplished for MINIUSA?
Ken
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
my gf has a mini, and is meeting with the dealership today, with a engineer and another min advisor, she is going to drive them around so they can experience it, and get the information they need.
Prior to this, we had planned to pursue the lemon laws in AZ, and also contact local news stations etc to advise them off this issue.
bottom line if they don't fix it.... we will be in contact with our lawyer
Prior to this, we had planned to pursue the lemon laws in AZ, and also contact local news stations etc to advise them off this issue.
bottom line if they don't fix it.... we will be in contact with our lawyer