Can we yell lemon law on this one? Has anyone done so? Would it do any good?

Eeeew. I'm so annoyed about this. Since I'm in Sedona, at present, I believe I'm taking Ollie to the Cathedral Rock Vortex tomorrow, to see if maybe a little upward energy movement can banish the demons.

And if that doesn't work, I'll shove some quartz crystals up his tailpipes, as they are supposed to promote clarity.

And if THAT doesn't work, I'll hire a voodoo priestess while in New Orleans.

BMW... care to found a homeopathic MINI care service department? I mean, we're all so fed up and desperate right now it'd be a GREAT moneymaker, methinks.

 

Here's MINIUSA's wonderfully informative response to my request for more info:

Hi Aaron, thanks for writing MINI. I'm sorry to hear you're having some problems with your MINI. We are aware of this issue, and our engineers are working to resolve this issue. We hope to have this information to our MINI dealers shortly, so please stay in touch with the Service Manager at your dealership for updates. Thank you for your patience in the interim.

Sincerely,
Emily Hatley
MINI Division
866-ASK-MINI

***

I am writing a follow-up letter to them now and will post it in a bit. Needless to say, this response didn't tell us anything we don't already know.

Aaron

 

And they've been telling us the same stuff for over 4 months now. I'm fed up!!! I feel that this issue falls under our Lemon Law:

"The motor vehicle is out of service by reason of repair for a cumulataive total of thirty or more calendar days during the shorter of the express warranty term or the two year period or twenty-four thousand miles, whichever is earlier."

 

Here is my reply to MINIUSA's letter (see previous post):
************************

Ms. Hatley,
This response tells me nothing that I didn't already know and state in my original letter. Myself and many other MINI owners are becoming increasingly upset with the lack of information on this from MINIUSA.

Here's what you need to do: find out how to get in touch with the engineers working on the problem. Get an update from them on what has been done and what their ETA is for having a fix to the dealers. Once you have that info, e-mail it to concerned owners such as myself, who will in turn spread the word to fellow owners. At the very least, get the ETA info to the dealers so we at least know when to expect a fix.

We have been in the dark on this for over two months now. We need some solid information that will calm our fears that this problem will never be fixed. At this point, it appears to us that MINIUSA doesn't really care that our cars don't run correctly and doesn't wish to share any info with us. Please go the extra mile to get this info for us. It would go a long way in terms of customer service!

I look forward to your response. Thanks for your time.

****

I'll let you guys know what response I get.

Aaron

 

Very nicely done. Not too angry, but not too polite. I can't wait to see what kind of response you get. I think that this is the right tack to take now on this issue. We need to take it upon ourselves to really pressure them to give us some answers, no matter how insignificant.

Good luck to all. It's time for me to make me weekly Service Manager call!

 

Thanks, I tried to be polite but also somewhat angry, so maybe they will realize the seriosness of the issue. Stay tuned!

Aaron

 

Hey, Max... Yeah, the ECU was replaced with a new one after the original was returned from BMW. The stumble problem was more severe after BMW had it (according to my service rep). The work was done in June. I took the car in on June 17, I think and I didn't get the car back until the 25th. During that time, Crevier BMW was kind enough to loan me a 325i (5 speed) but it just was not the same.

 

Here at last is some good news. I just loaded the Powerchip software (which contains Randy's mappings for the pulley etc.) Now, I still have the stumble, but Powerchip says they have not had a stumble car to test with. So, if there is somebody in the LA area who has the stumble he or she is invited to Powerchip, get a free rental car for a day and Powerchip says they can analyze the problem using all their test gear AND FIX THIS PROBLEM! Call Joel at 1-800 495 0777 for more info. I realize there are a limited number of people who would be willing to bypass BMW to get this fixed but some folks will.

Graham

 

The last post really gets me wondering about this software problem. This is a very easy problem to solve. Don't let BMW fool you. Engine control, car manufacturers have been doing this for a long time. For most sports cars you buy an aftermarket chip and control it yourself. I have friends that do this all the time. Yes BMWs software is more complicated, but not to the point that they can't fix it! It's been a full year that people have been dealing with this problem.

Anyways I can't help but think that there is more to it. I wonder if there are legal issues holding this up. I recall posts that talked about BMW not owning the code. That the BMW engineers can't tweak the code directly. If this is true then I think the problem resides here and not necessarily overly complicated code. Meanwhile Cooper owners suffer and get left in the dark.

Or maybe it's one guy/gal sitting in a closet racking his brain trying to figure out whats wrong! :smile:

Actually I think I know what the problem really is. I believe my one guy/gal theory is correct, all the other engineers are trying to figure out the iDrive problems in the 740!

 

>>Here is my reply to MINIUSA's letter (see previous post):
>>************************
>>
>>Ms. Hatley,
>> This response tells me nothing that I didn't already know and state in my original letter. Myself and many other MINI owners are becoming increasingly upset with the lack of information on this from MINIUSA.
>>
>>Here's what you need to do: find out how to get in touch with the engineers working on the problem. Get an update from them on what has been done and what their ETA is for having a fix to the dealers. Once you have that info, e-mail it to concerned owners such as myself, who will in turn spread the word to fellow owners. At the very least, get the ETA info to the dealers so we at least know when to expect a fix.
>>
>>We have been in the dark on this for over two months now. We need some solid information that will calm our fears that this problem will never be fixed. At this point, it appears to us that MINIUSA doesn't really care that our cars don't run correctly and doesn't wish to share any info with us. Please go the extra mile to get this info for us. It would go a long way in terms of customer service!
>>
>>I look forward to your response. Thanks for your time.
>>
>>****
>>
>>I'll let you guys know what response I get.
>>
>>Aaron

Redbird,

Let me tell you what their answer will be - I know because I have a letter from BMW/NA from a few months ago (actually dated June 4th 2002 - but it was THIS year :evil:

I wonder how long they have been peddling these "SOON" letters for - anyone have an older one than this?

 

Kind of interesting that the Powerchip people have been unable to find a Mini with the stumble. From reading the posts here one gets the idea that all MCS have this problem. I've had mine for about a week now with about 800 miles and so far no stumble or yo-yo. I've read some that had it show up as soon as they got the car and other posts that seem to indicate it can take a month or more to show. With this many variable experiences makes you wonder if everyone is dealing with the same issue.

 

>>I find that to avoid the "stumble" I have to release the clutch very quick, and just about bog the engine (about 1k RPM), then the powerband is smooth and uninterrupted.
>>
>>I wonder if aftermarket software changes this, and no more Hiccup?!

The startup stumble disappeared on my MCS after I got Randy's new Power Chips ecu upgrade! Unfortunately, I still have the pronounced surging/lurching in 2nd and 3rd gears between 2500-4000 rpm. MINI now has the software to solve the problem... but they have delayed release to dealers until December sometime!! That news came straight to me in a phone conversation with Erik Luchsinger, head service liason here for BMW/MINI here in the Southeast. He can't explain why it's taking so long to give the software to dealers.

 

You have got to be kidding me. We have to wait until December for a fix? This is an absolutely unacceptable timeframe. I was told it would likely be a two month timeframe, two months ago.

It is nice to know that Erik Luchsinger is alive and well, since I've been waiting on a return phone call from him for nearly two weeks, now. :evil:

See ya,
JS

 

>>>>I find that to avoid the "stumble" I have to release the clutch very quick, and just about bog the engine (about 1k RPM), then the powerband is smooth and uninterrupted.
>>>>
>>>>I wonder if aftermarket software changes this, and no more Hiccup?!
>>
>>The startup stumble disappeared on my MCS after I got Randy's new Power Chips ecu upgrade! Unfortunately, I still have the pronounced surging/lurching in 2nd and 3rd gears between 2500-4000 rpm. MINI now has the software to solve the problem... but they have delayed release to dealers until December sometime!! That news came straight to me in a phone conversation with Erik Luchsinger, head service liason here for BMW/MINI here in the Southeast. He can't explain why it's taking so long to give the software to dealers.


Probly cause they don't have it working
If BMW could fix our cars - don't you think they would do it asap and save the bad press. The fact that Randy's upgraded chip fixes the stumble but unfortunately not the yoyo tells me BMW are a few iced vovos short of a packet.

 

Is it absolutely just a software issue, according to the Benevolent Mr. Luchsinger? The only reason I can think of that would "warrant" a December hold-back is that the fix is costly and the issue is heat related so they're waiting till the cooler months in hopes our stumbles will subside and we'll shut our pie holes.

Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to further alienate a band of disgruntled customers.

yoo hoo... BMWAG... YOU SUCK!

 

>>>>
>>You have got to be kidding me. We have to wait until December for a fix? This is an absolutely unacceptable timeframe. I was told it would likely be a two month timeframe, two months ago.
>>
>>It is nice to know that Erik Luchsinger is alive and well, since I've been waiting on a return phone call from him for nearly two weeks, now. :evil:
>>
>>See ya,
>>JS

Crikey, no wonder Davbret has given up on this car. I still get people asking me daily about my car. Before, I was enthusiastic about promoting it. Now, I jut smile sardonically and say, "Nothing to see here, just move along...." ...and I don't even have an "S".

I experienced the non-S stumble until I put in an aftermarket intake and switched to Chevron gas. I still switch off the A/C at stoplights on hot days.

 

What I don't understand is why in the world MINI/BMW thinks that having the stumble is preferable to the cold start issue.

Think about it, would you rather have an issue that affects your car ...what...twice or three times a day at most, or would you rather have an issue that affects you many, many, many times a day, everytime you have to come to a stop and shift out of first? I'd rather have the cold start. And they say they can't load an older version of the software, right? Why? Because of a version number, maybe? It will only load newer versions?? If that's the case, couldn't theyjust recompile the old software and give it a new version number? I think if you ask most, they'd take the cold start if it cleared up the stumble, but only as a short-term solution.

I can't tell you how absolutely NOT FUN it is to drive home in stop and go traffic each day. It's downright irritating...constantly being jerked around...and MINI/BMW can take that however they please. :evil: My MINI hasn't performed properly from day one.

See ya,
JS

 

^^ You're giving up on the "glass of water on the dash" thing for the wrong reasons--it's not so much that the water would spill when the car lurched, it's that the glass would hit the windscreen and crack it.

 

The earliest reference to this issue I found by searching (using "lurch&quot was clear back in December of last year. Christmas day. Davbret.

You all have more patience than I would have.

 

Well I've now been driving with the new software for about a week now. I'd have to say it's quasi-cured the stumble, maybe 85-90% gone. Running v34.x currently. But beware! While I am experiencing improvement, I've got a random "brick wall" now. This has apparently already reported by multiple owners with this new software to our local dealer, Rasmussen. The issue sounds a lot like what Om was describing above where all of a sudden durring initial acceleration it just plain gives out. Feels like the DSC/ASC kicking in, but no lights flash.

And as an update, I drove the S2000 the other day. Not terriblly impressed with the engine. Actually, not at all. My MINI felt that it could eat the S2000 alive. Not even in full VTEC did it feel as powerful as my MINI. Damn. Well, ix-nay that option I guess. Going to check out the Z3 2.8 tonight as I've got a friend that can aquire lease return Z3s at wholesale, so that's a pretty cool option if I end up liking the car.

R

 

So, we trade the cold start for a stumble and the stumble for a brick wall. Perhaps we haven't been clear, or we've been using $5 words when $.50 words will suffice:

MINIUSA, we want our cars to run without ANY sniggling problems.

All clear now? Ok, good. We'll expect that fix soon, then.

 

I haven't had a theory for a while, so here goes...

I think that "solution" to the problem has major implications for fuel economy and/or emissions (probably the latter). BMW (ack to my theory) has found a "fix" but this substantially degrades the emissions in such a way that they'd have owners -- particularly in CA and MA, the two most rigorous emissions states -- failing to pass annual inspections. I'm from MA, and I know that the theory behind our inspection system is that your car falls within a certain standard deviation of factory issued specs FOR THAT PARTICULAR CAR/engine combination...for each model year. Greater variance, you don't pass. If the factory were to change those specs after the fact of initial certification, they'd have to recertify the car with the state...and this is likely to be very difficult if not virtually impossible for emissions.

The fact that advanced computer control (such as what's found on the MINI and many other modern cars) allows for a virtually complete remapping of emissions is not relevant to the bureaucrats who make emissions law. They're still stuck on the idea that when a car leaves the factory it has a nailed down set of specs that can't be easily changed. Thus, I'd serioiusly doubt that emissions law allows for a manufacturer to make "field changes"...or if it is allowed, it may not be easy.

(I know that I used to have this problem many years ago in MA with carburated cars...change the carbs, or even change the jet sizes so that the car ran better and you ran into TONS of problems getting the car past the state sniffer. I know folks who used to change jets and tweek their carbs in the driveway of the inspection station to put the car into "factory spec" mode just in order to get a sticker each year...)

Therefore, the "fix" that BMW is trying to develop is one that addresses this stumble but preserves emissions figures that are the same or very close to existing. Depending on the real cause of the problem, this could be well near impossible. This is resposible for the "we've found it, but can't release it" types of statements we've been hearing from various underlings at BMW. Yes, the engineers have found a solution, but this isn't acceptable to corporate until it's refined. This also presents a significant problem for FUTURE MODEL YEARS...in that it would be a relatively simple matter for BMW to certify a version of the car that is stumble-free starting with a new model year (e.g., 2005)...but, if this fix is done via software, then how do they prevent the "stumble-free" software from being loaded onto pre-model-year cars and thereby causing these cars problems with emissions? Again, the emissions process just isn't smart enough to deal with after-the-fact, on-the-fly, changes to emissions mapping. Anyhow, this means that BMW either has to find a way to cut current owners out of the "fix" or find a fix that doesn't effect emissions. This has got to be hard.

Part of my theory comes from the fact that I personally HAVE noticed differences in the stumble when playing with fuel (e.g. the Techron issue) and air...I've recently added an intake and have noticed subtle differences. Also, this stumble seems to be related to the cold start problem which is clearly fuel supply related. When my car does start (after cranking long and weak), it often STINKS bad...to me indicating a problem with mixture.

What do others think?

 

BTW, did anyone on this thread notice that the "Emily Hatley" who supposedly authored the above letters also signed the MIINUSA letters about the MCO legal issues?

If Emily is a human being (who on OTHER threads has been described as a low level intern), then she's mighty busy. Nahhhhh. Rather, I think that this gives more proof the the "nobody here but us robots" theory of MINIUSA/MINI Division staffing.

 

Hmmm, just thinking, this many problems with the Tritec engine. Wonder if the Peugot will stumble?? Or, I wonder if it will function at all?? The tritec has been used on other car models, do they use similiar ECU's / software?? Or, is this a MINI specific problem? Or am I a technical moron who knows nothing about either?

No, I do not want my MINI to run like a neon/PT Cruiser, just curious.

 

>>>>
>>What I don't understand is why in the world MINI/BMW thinks that having the stumble is preferable to the cold start issue.
>>
>>Think about it, would you rather have an issue that affects your car ...what...twice or three times a day at most, or would you rather have an issue that affects you many, many, many times a day, everytime you have to come to a stop and shift out of first? I'd rather have the cold start. And they say they can't load an older version of the software, right? Why? Because of a version number, maybe? It will only load newer versions?? If that's the case, couldn't theyjust recompile the old software and give it a new version number? I think if you ask most, they'd take the cold start if it cleared up the stumble, but only as a short-term solution.
>>
>>I can't tell you how absolutely NOT FUN it is to drive home in stop and go traffic each day. It's downright irritating...constantly being jerked around...and MINI/BMW can take that however they please. :evil: My MINI hasn't performed properly from day one.
>>
>>See ya,
>>JS


jstines:

Maybe you all should start notifying NHTSA that this is a safety problem. Someone on MINI2 did that recently. When I threatened to do that in June, they fixed my car. They had to send my ECU to NJ so the BMW engineers could work on it, but they did fix it.