I just picked up my MCS last night. Granted I only have about 150 miles on it, but so far no stumble or bog. Keep my fingers crosses.

 

I am interested in the ongoing comments here, and appreciate that many drivers have continued to describe their experiences. I think I have a slightly different issue, (posted lengthy message on the 9th), I have issues with the idle. Seems to all boil down to the same core issues though of software problems though. Time for BMW to come up with a fix--- this just isn’t acceptable for a new car. I woul hate to be paying my dealership $95 an hour to fumble about the way they have been doing, only to tell me that nothing is wrong. Hoping that those that are communicating with MINI regional managers or Lemon Law requests post their experiences.

 

Bobbie...

Was this software the soon-to-be-infamous v.35? Or is it even newer than that? Seems like it should be newer, if your ECU needed a roadtrip. But if it is, why has MINIUSA bothered sending v.35 to dealers?

PS--it's good news, whatever version it is

:smile:

 

>>Bobbie...
>>
>>Was this software the soon-to-be-infamous v.35? Or is it even newer than that? Seems like it should be newer, if your ECU needed a roadtrip. But if it is, why has MINIUSA bothered sending v.35 to dealers?

I repeatedly asked the people at MiniUSA & my dealer and the answer I always got was it's so new it doesn't have a number. I was assured it was not the older software. They also said it would be at the dealers in a couple of weeks, but they told me two months ago I would have a fix "in a couple of weeks" so don't hold your breath.

 

Same exact thing happened to me. I sold my MINI 3 weeks ago and didn't look back, as my life is worth a lot more than a fad. What a disappointment. Good luck and I hope you stay safe. I sold it also because I figured the resale was at its peak and that once this stumble issue becomes more public, the resale value will plummet. Oh well........ [img]http://[/img]

 

Hey Andrew... sorry to hear you sold your MINI, but I'm sure it was the best decision for you as you seem to have only bought it for it's "fad" value.

I love my car. I will continue to love my car even if people begin to tell me the fad is over. The stumble is near fixed, so my resale value won't be hurt--but then I don't intend to sell the car anytime soon, either.


The bog that you apparently experienced really can be quite dangerous, which is why I have faith that MINI HAS to come out with a fix--they don't want people to die in their cars. Talk about bad publicity.

 

>>Same exact thing happened to me. I sold my MINI 3 weeks ago and didn't look back, as my life is worth a lot more than a fad. What a disappointment. Good luck and I hope you stay safe. I sold it also because I figured the resale was at its peak and that once this stumble issue becomes more public, the resale value will plummet. Oh well........

Having had a perfectly good 02 MCS for 14,000 miles - No stumble

And now having switched to an 03 MCS - With Stumble

1) I know it's not a mechanical feature of the car
2) I know it's not a driver skill issue
3) I know that BMW can make the car without the stumble
4) I know that without the stumble, the car is a joy to drive

Therefore I'm 100% confident that BMW can/have provided a SW fix to get the car back to it's pre stumble performance.

Apppreciate that I may have had a much better perspective on this than yourself, but your desire to see us all suffer is childish in the extreme.

Chris.

 

Folks--

I don't want to cross-post too much, but I do want to let you all know about a thread I posted in "Mini Talk"...I received "v.35" of the ECU software earlier this week, and have reviewed my experience so far...

Not a cure for stumble, but an improvement...

Here's hoping for the end of stumble some day soon!

--Peter

 

>>Same exact thing happened to me. I sold my MINI 3 weeks ago and didn't look back, as my life is worth a lot more than a fad. What a disappointment. Good luck and I hope you stay safe. I sold it also because I figured the resale was at its peak and that once this stumble issue becomes more public, the resale value will plummet. Oh well........ [img]http://[/img]


Andrew sold his MINI 3 weeks ago... True.

Didn't look back... Probably false. He's still posting and still thinking about motoring.

Our lives are worth more than a fad or *any* car... True.

A disappointment... True. And when the inevitable fix comes, we'll all be relieved. And Andrew can always buy another. Don't be sad, Andrew; we'll take you back.

 

I haven't been following this thread and I'm not about to read thru all 25 pages but there is something that I can add: I develop software for flight-critical avionics and everything that I have seen on this subject doesn't point to a software "problem". It sounds like the ECU software is doing what it is intended to do, and that is adapt to conditions it perceives. Often, manufacturers will change suppliers between model years to increase margins and profits or offset inflation. If a replaced sensor performs differently than expected, the software will continue to "adapt" the system according to the original programming. On Subarus prior to '98 (with a non-adaptive EDU), the MAF was very sensitive to the upstream filter assembly. If the 2.5RS intake was replaced with a cold-air filter, the MAF would provide really screwy signals and the car wouldn't run. If that condition existed on a post 2000 car, the ECU would attempt to adapt but never succeed.

Not knowing all the things the ECU on the MC(S) monitors, its difficult to deduce which may be at fault. The problem sounds like the engine is running rich, similar to running with the choke open. And since there seems to be a correlation to temperature, I would hazard that the resistive charateristics of intake thermistor or the O2 sensor is different than the 2002 model. If either of these circuit were to consistantly read different than expect (higher or lower) the ECU would continually adjust the fuel to meet the demand (intake) or the result (exhaust).

MINI has probably already thought this thru but why couldn't this forum identify which parts changed between the working and non-working models, and begin a parts swapping test to see if anything improves for the 2003s? It's a shame Cooperb! didn't keep his 2002. He could have been our experimenter.

Good luck to those who need it.

 

Exactly! We were originally told by MINI that it was a software problem, but I think if anything, MINIUSA may be attempting to mask a hardware issue by modifying the software. MINI now admits that it may be a combination of hardware and software.

There is NO WAY that it could be strictly software if some cars come off the line stumble free and others have the stumble. That's what I have trouble understanding. I can readily accept that in 2002, models have different hardware/software and perform without stumble while in 2003, the stumble appeared. What I can't understand is why some cars in 2003 have the stumble and others don't. What would change from car-to-car coming down a production line? This is the one thing that perplexes me.

Now, I know some folks had a well-running MINI, were upgraded with new software, and developed the stumble. I also believe some people will get new software and will not stumble. I believe this occurs because some of the 2002 models had the stumble-inducing hardware component all along, but it was masked by the older software. Unfortunately, to mask the stumble with software, the cold start issue rears its head. This all points to a lean/rich fuel mixture that the software is trying to deal with. And since this stumble condition only occurs in 1st gear with a full release of the clutch, I think it's obvious that a sensor is coming into play.

I think you're dead-on with the O2 sensor. I think MINI could likely fix this issue by replacing hardware, but they know it would be far less costly to try to modify the software to compensate for the hardware condition.

If we look at the current evidence, we know that the stumble condition can be resolved by manually re-loading the old cold-start software. What causes cold start? Lean condition. What does MINI do to fix it? They make the fuel mix richer with the new software. Now, we have a very rich fuel mixture in an engine when it is first cranked. The clutch is released and BAM, the car stumbles. Why? Because the ECU/DME is saying, "THIS FUEL MIX IS TOO RICH", and it cuts the fuel. This also explains why the stumble is most severe when the car is first started. I bet that the O2 sensor isn't providing feedback to the computer when the clutch is depressed in 1st gear. When the clutch is released, the 02 sensor values are read, the software says, "Whoa, cut the gas", and that's what happens. Car stumbles. Condition then clears. Car runs normally from this point on as ECU/DME monitors and controls the mix from this point on.

The question is, WHAT is different on the cars that don't stumble?? Surely they aren't mixing oxygen sensors from one car to the next. Any clues?

Surely MINI has already done this and know what causes the problem. My guess is that MINI is trying to figure out an inexpensive solution.

See ya,
JS

 

I have to agree with the last couple of posts. I had mentioned somewhere on this board that this is more that just software but I can't begin to assume what. I still tend to say that whatever "fix" MINIUSA says it has is what I call a "bandaid fix", it will patch it up but will not cure it. Mentally for us it will become a fix and they saved themselves a lot of money. That's how big corps think, save big money and make big profit, we consumers are secondary. It's all in the mind, hell like I said before if they play this off long enough we'll all forget about it and they don't even need a fix.



Peter

 

I own an OBDII Connector that connects to my laptop and provides data readings on some of the sensors. If any of you could tell me which sensor data would be helpful I would be glad to drive around and stumble until I can capture a stumble in the data. (What would it look like???)

 

>>I own an OBDII Connector that connects to my laptop and provides data readings on some of the sensors. If any of you could tell me which sensor data would be helpful I would be glad to drive around and stumble until I can capture a stumble in the data. (What would it look like???)
>>


If you can measure engine RPM and read if the oxygen sensor is in an open or closed state, you MAY be able to see if the oxygen sensor in conjunction with the software is causing the stumble. I've never used or even seen an OBDII port reader, but you'd want to plot on the horizontal axis the time. On the vertical axis, you'd want to plot the engine RPM's. Then, you'd want to overlay a plot of the oxygen sensor state (closed loop/open loop) on top of that. If you get a change in oxygen sensor reading right when you get the first sudden RPM drop, it won't prove that the oxygen sensor is the culprit, but it suggests that it is likely involved with the stumble. You could also use engine speed instead of RPM, but it may be harder to detect in the graph.

If you didn't want to plot this data, you could simply look at the raw numbers. Find the time at which you had the first drop in RPM's and note the time in secs. Look at the oxygen sensor state around the same timeframe and see if the state changed.

I was thinking about this issue as I stumbled out of the parking lot, today. Could this also explain the stumble some of us get when we decelerate...right about 1500 RPMs or so, the car sort of hiccups. Could that be the oxygen sensor going open loop/closed loop and the computer releasing control of the fuel/air mixture? Do you see what I'm saying?

Any of you technical folks have any ideas?

See ya,
JS

 

good to hear the flight control system guy! ahh, the wonders of learning how to deal through FADECs

I have some experience with what you seem so proficient in, but mostly with closed loop sensor controled lube systems for gas turbines. Former auto mechanic.

regardless of credentials, your logic and case is thorough,

your input is also astute jstines.

I agree in every way, especially that they know the problem, know the correct solution, and are implementing the low cost alternative. It's business. Thats the way it works.

to the question about mixed good and bad parts in sequential production, FIFO does not always happen even in the best pull systems (typically automotive have the best)

 

I've been reading about the stumble for some time now. As the ship was approaching with my Mini, I was very concerned. Luckily, when I picked up my S last week, it did not have the stumble.

One day after I had the car, it was changed to a JCW. There too, I was concerned. Will I pick up the stumble???

In any case, I now have had the car for under a week (500 miles so far) and the car (knock on mouse) does not have the stumble. It runs like crazy and a lot of fun. All it needs is a Zaino car wash/wax (due end of this week).

I will continue to knock on wood, plastic, keyboard or anything else to keep that stumble bug away from my car. I will lay garlic around the car at night as well. Anything to keep stumble away. I'm terrified of getting bit by it.

 

MiniJoker--

Welcome to MCO!

I'm hoping (I'm sure we all are) that you don't get the stumble. I didn't have it right away, if I remember, but developed it early on. With the JCW package (I'm jealous!) you may have enough other variables to prevent the stumble, or at least mitigate it. It's also possible that since your car is so recent, you have a slightly different setup in terms of software and parts, and may not get the stumble at all. I'm sure there are more experienced people on here who will know whether that's true...

Please keep us up-to-date, and let us know how the JCW "works" out. Also, please post some pics in the gallery and/or share a write up of your new JCW in the "MINI Talk" forum...

 

I just started to get the stumble and yo-yo. Only 350 miles on my 03 MSC. I can live w/ it for now.

 

Hello,

FYI- I posted my pic in the gallery. I am really keeping my fingers crossed so the Stumble bug won't bite!

 

Hi :smile:

bought a used 02 MCS (June 02 build) 2 months ago, and I've experienced the stumble when trying to pull onto a busy street (yeow!--don't do that anymore!) and I'm thinking maybe its the hiccup?yoyo? and not me when it stutters every time I'm starting off at about 2000rpm or so...annoying.

Love my car though. Talked to a salesman at my local dealer recently--he told me this is a well known problem and they now have a computer upgrade that fixes it!!!

Don't know what version software I have--it was serviced at 12k for second oilchange, and some minor rattles at 13K...

The salesman told me to bring it in and just have the new software installed, but
I'm kinda worried that it could get worse, not better! Whatcha think?

 

^ I think you wait, and keep up with the stumble-related MCO threads. There are strong rumors now that there's a version of the software that MAY fix the problem...but these rumors have circulated before, only to have it turn out that the software really doesn't fix the problem...and actually makes it worse. These rumor threads will sort themselves out over the next couple of weeks, and you'll have a good idea of what the real situation is.

Most importantly, DO NOT take your dealer's word for fact. At best, they're only telling you what they've heard from BMW (which now admits to releasing 3 or 4 previous versions of the software that were not tested re. the stumble and either had no effect in fixing it or made it worse). At worse, they're just making up an answer to make you happy and really have no idea whether the software works or not.

 

Bridger.us/mini reports that there is an as yet unreleased version 36 that fixes the stumble. http://bridger.us/mini/

Should be at dealers any time now. Call your dealer, get on that list....

 

I received a call from a gentelman at BMW/MINI I believe he said new jersey. Tues of this week. He claimed he could fix my MINI. My current options Send Flo's computer to newjersey to get flashed. Or wait a few weeks for the new software CD's to make it to the Dealer, 200 miles away in my case. He believes this will solve My S problems He also believes I should have this software applied to my 02 Cooper. I have high hopes. Fortunatly for me I will not have an opportunity to go to KC for a few weeks. So a few of you lucky folks closer to a dealer can guinea pig for me. I am not sure why I got called. I have not threatened lemons or other issues. I tried to maintain my focus on this problem from a safety standpoint. All hope is not lost BMW/MINI is burning cd's as we type. Good luck to all and keep the info flowing. Sorry I did not get a CD # I assume it is 36 if anyone has further questions or info let me know. I have the mans name and # so hopefully things will change very soon.

RAT

 

>>Andrew sold his MINI 3 weeks ago... True.
>>
>>Didn't look back... Probably false. He's still posting and still thinking about motoring.
>>
>>A disappointment... True. And when the inevitable fix comes, we'll all be relieved. And Andrew can always buy another. Don't be sad, Andrew; we'll take you back.
>>

Andrew... Are you out there? I think it's time to order your new MCS!

 

>>Andrew sold his MINI 3 weeks ago... True.
>>
>>Didn't look back... Probably false. He's still posting and still thinking about motoring.
>>
>>A disappointment... True. And when the inevitable fix comes, we'll all be relieved. And Andrew can always buy another. Don't be sad, Andrew; we'll take you back.
>>

Andrew... Are you out there? I think it's time to order your new MCS!