All those with the MCS "death rattle" start-up problem (like me) should read this link to the Michigan MINI club forum. Aside from being MINI fanatics, they're also automotive and engine designers and engineers by profession. They walk the talk.

It's a lengthly read (13 pages), but they lay out a very convincing evidence and theory-based case for poorly designed hydraulic lash adjusters at the root cause of the "death rattle" - nothing to do with the timing belt tensioner http://www.michiganmini.org/forum/in...p?topic=3115.0

They lay the noise blame on a very poorly designed (cheap) HLA that quickly bleeds down and depletes it's internal oil reservour after shutdown. After start, the HLA becomes a pneumatic lash adjuster until sump oil is finally pumped into the valve train assembly and the ingested air is slowly bled out of the HLAs. The shutdown position of the camshaft lobes will affect how many HLAs end up depleted, and the amount and variability of the start-up "rattle".

As Tom, their valve train designer/engineer guru states in their forum, the "rattle" we're hearing is not the HLA, but the valve itself smacking back into the cylinder head due to the "deflated" HLA. He highly recommends we do not exceed 2,000 rpm until the noise stops to avoid valve damage or breakage. His other recommendations are using a 0W30 synthetic oil and non-stop complaining to MINI. The engineers really make the point that the noise is NOT NORMAL, and make sure the dealers hear that loud and clear.

The above is paraphrased from their web site. I'm no expert. "Tom" is the valve train designer/engineer who is leading the charge on this. He owns 2 MINI's - MCS and a new Clubman. It takes awhile to read thru the entire thread, but I learned a lot about engine design, valve train, hydraulic lash adjusters, and camshaft theory and standards. Definitely not light reading, but it made a believer out of me!

 

I will take some time and read it thanks for posting it. We still have not gotten our Mini back from the dealer. They called yesterday and said that they have been emailing back and forth with tech support in NJ and they think they are close to fixing it , yeah right. They wanted the dealer to cold start it this morning and email them the readings and the dealer said hopefully we can get the car back tonight. I really feel like they have no fix and are just stalling. I will keep you posted.

 

Sometimes I think that MINI should have never paired up with Peugeot to design this engine. It is amazing to see how something like this was allowed to go out the door.

The old venerable TRITEC engine of the 1st gen cars, may be crude, but it is a very well designed motor and nearly bulletproof.

Time to resurrect TRITEC Motors for MINI v3.0?

 

22 days and still no car back from dealer. New chain tensioner is being installed tomorrow morning. If this fails to fix the issue they say they will put a new engine in it......l'll advise outcome asap.

 

With 16500 Miles now and 0 to 20 deg F. mornings here in Michigan, my cold start (no valve train oil) noise is almost a daily occurrence.
When I start in the AM or when I leave work at night (I park in downtown Detroit in an inside garage at work), makes no difference.

I drive ~ 25 miles each way to work, so the short run time is NOT a factor, although this summer I too thought it made a difference and would try not to do short runs. Please believe me when I say it does not make a difference.

The only real factor is the:
1. outside temp as it affects the oils viscosity (thus will cause the start-up oil not to flow as quickly)
2. AND where the cam stops, as this will determine which VALVES are open placing pressure on the open valves HLA and squeezing out its oil while the engine is at rest.

I just start the car and go back in the house, or wait inside it, takes about 5 min’s of idle time for it to stop.
I would NOT drive the car while it is making this noise as others have said the load on the engine would not be a good thing with out proper oil getting to the valve train.

I’m awaiting a proper dealer fix, not smoke and mirrors or snake oil. It’s a shame that BMW is not addressing this as it is down right embarrassing to sit in a new car that is making that kind of metal on metal rattle noise!

Otherwise I love this car, great power (when running correctly), great handling, great build quality (except for this engine, although it has yet to swallow a valve so there is something to be said about that) and gets great fuel mileage ~ 30.5 on my daily commute.

Thanks for reading, lets keep the posts coming on this..!
Dave K9

 

I don't buy the oil theory. With the modern oil used today, flow is rarely a problem even in cold weather.

 

I don't buy that at all. I drive a 05 GTO with the 6 liter LS2 400 hp motor. This thing makes more valve train noise then you can shake a sitick at. No harm to the motor. The valve train looks great and I have 85K of hard hot rod miles on this bad boy.

 

This is the most plausible reasoning I have heard in the whole thread. But if it were true one would think the fix would not be a difficult issue. My wifes 09 MCS has 1200 miles on it so far and not a hint of any issue as desribed in these posts.

Pat

 

Fully agree on the plausibility of the cause; maybe not so much on the potential ease of the fix. Okay all you engineers out there -- how would you do it? Seems like it would require a redesign/replacement of the HLAs with some sort of internal check valve to keep the internal reservoir from bleeding down. Pre-pressurizing the oil system might help but not sure if it would purge air that has already entered the HLA reservoir.

I suspect that anything costing more than a few tens of dollars per vehicle would be cost-prohibitive for BMW MINI. Plus, there's evidence in this forum that for every owner seeking a solution to the problem, there are probably ten who haven't experienced the problem (yet) or have it and are willing to live with it -- not much of a motivator for the corporate execs.

 

Fine, but I don't buy it. How do you know that your LS2 valve train noise causes no harm? Have you had your engine apart & inspected it? It may or may not be harmed by a noisy valve train. Not sure what your push-rod old tech V8 has in common with a high tech French double overhead cam engine except that they make ugly noises.

 

I agree. Oil viscosity flow issues went away with the adoption of the SAE winter flow standards (that's what the "W" stands for in 5W30). Full synthetic oils meeting BMW standards will not have thickening in cold temperatures like the old mineral-based 10W30 oils.

 

To me it was a bit suspicious when BMW suddenly announced the end of the PSA engine venture not even a year into the introduction of the R56. I think since, BMW has resumed the co-development work with PSA but still it makes you wonder......

 

It's one of the most reliable, versatile, bulletproof engine designs ever built. It has more applications, more hp ratings and is still in more high performance applications then you think. I think if you knew engines as well as you think you do you would know that this sound is normal in this type of engine, along with the rolling lope as it idles, and quite frankly it is thing of beauty. As well engine oil analysis shows no abnormal wear in this motor at all. 80,476 miles and the motor uses no oil unless I'm on the gas and pumping some ponies out.
My car's engine has no ugly noises coming from it. Only a beautiful soft sounds coming from the top end and a great looking lope with a steady as a rock 900 rpm at idle and the great sound of HP with the gas is punched. My wifes MINI has a great sound as well. Not the same as the goat but I gotta tell you it doesn't have a cold start issue either.

Hummmmmmmmmm

 

Guys, can we please keep the discussion out of this thread. This thread is intended as a repository of information for those with the cold start noise. If you wish to continue the discussion, can you please move it to: https://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/stock-problems-issues/130512-cold-start-chatter.html


Thank you!

 

Has anyone tried a "pre-oiler" system. Several people that owned Superformance Cobras with high performance motors had them. Essentially there is a reservior of oil that is kept under pressure when the engine is stopped. Upon restarting, the pre-lube is released into the oiling system to prime the pump and the rest of the points needing lubrication on start up.
Summit Racing sells them.

Could the knock sensor be getting false "knocks" when the lifters, or timing chain or ??? are making their racket and then "senses" the knocking sounds it sends a signal to the engine management computer to retard the timing even further and making the engine run worse? That's also why it can't seem to rev..... Also the "S" knock sensor is different than the one on the regular non-turbo MC, correct? This could also explain why the "stop" and then "restart" works to stop the clatter.... the knock sensor is reset, the lifters have oil and all is right with the valvetrain. Just a thought from a newbie....

 

dry sump, w/pre oiler

 

I have a variation on the Cold Start Rattle. Mine never went away, and came accompanied by a very intense vibration at idle. Idling, btw, was very rough, and the needle was crazy, all over the tach. :( Anyone experienced such a bad case?

 

I would take it to a shop rather than try to speculate. Seems to be the wisest thing to do.

 

From the description , you've got something wrong other than the start-up rattle. Better drag it to the dealer pronto

 

Yeah, I did before posting. I was wondering if anyone had the same issue and therefore a bit of information because the dealership has no clue as to what it could be.

 

As Eric Cartman might say, "I'm so f&^$&g pissed off right now." But then I calmed down, because I know Im among a group that has a common bond....

09 MCSa JCW, late Sept build, 2468 miles, at work 40 F, sat for 8 hours, ran fine this early AM (28F). Started ok, the little whirr then smooth idle for a couple secs, then BAM BAM BAM BAM like a cold diesel trying to come to life Idle like this for 20 seconds (tach stayed at 900 rpm), then all normal, car performed like the champ it is.

Car's service history since delivery Election Day has been spotless. I always idle it to op temp after starting--NO quick on/off--and I rev it up for spirited JCW slushbox motoring with paddles and Sport mode on as my default--no granny car this one. No tracking or competition (but Id love to take on that Scirocco for grins).

So I have a call into my SA who told me the first time it happens to let him know, to be entered into my service database. He claims they've not had to deal with this much, mostly 07s, but ?????? still remain. I know they'll take care of me, so Im not worried. I just wonder how something like this can go on for so long??

I originally thought this problem was due to too many on/off starts/stops fooling the ECU's role in the on-demand oil system to the valve train, but I guess that's not the case. However, the first post on this page makes a lot of sense.

Sorry to be part of this group now. I guess my MINI grew up.

 

Something tells me you are going to start to miss that little whiny TRITEC you used to have...

 

In a way, I already am... altho CR Devil Hell-child had a lot of problems, the TriTec was not one of them.

 

evidently Tritec lives on-- Fiat bought the rights from Chrysler (and the Brazil factory) to further develop and refine that great engine for future applications.

 

From what I have read in several places a Chinese company bought the Tritec plant. Either way someone bought the rights to a very good engine.