Cold Start Issues Database
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Yikes! 24/25 mpg is a huge drop. I'm certainly not afraid to drive it, if the engine dies thats a warranty issue in my book with only about ~11K miles so far.
Do people experience some weird turbo lag while this is cold start issue is happening?
This morning when I first got going I hit the gas and felt the normal turbo lag when the engine is still cold, then I get some boost and at about 3000RPM it was like I lost all boost again. Then BAM at 4000RPM the turbo kicked back in. Overall a very herky jerky response from the engine that i've only felt it do once before. After that everything ran as normal, very smooth.
Do people experience some weird turbo lag while this is cold start issue is happening?
This morning when I first got going I hit the gas and felt the normal turbo lag when the engine is still cold, then I get some boost and at about 3000RPM it was like I lost all boost again. Then BAM at 4000RPM the turbo kicked back in. Overall a very herky jerky response from the engine that i've only felt it do once before. After that everything ran as normal, very smooth.
Neutral
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
With the engine timing wrong, you'll feel the power curve be a lot less linear. I was getting a real underpower from idle to 2k where the turbo would dump in all at once.
If I tried to jump the line, I'd wait a long time for the turbo boost to actually get powers to the wheels. Eventually, the timing was just so retarded I was underpower all the time.
This is par for the course. Whenever you change timing, you change when and how much power is delivered. A situation made worse given the fact the computer is controlling spark and fuel and doesn't know there is a problem or doesn't know soon enough anyway.
If I tried to jump the line, I'd wait a long time for the turbo boost to actually get powers to the wheels. Eventually, the timing was just so retarded I was underpower all the time.
This is par for the course. Whenever you change timing, you change when and how much power is delivered. A situation made worse given the fact the computer is controlling spark and fuel and doesn't know there is a problem or doesn't know soon enough anyway.
As a side note to how worried you should be about the death rattle, I drove over 3,000-miles with the rattle at about 80% of my starts. After you've experienced your rattle for a while, the timing components wear to the point where they are simply out of specification and you have a rattle hot or cold.
I also did not observe the advice to employ low RPMs during the rattle. MINI was giving me a hard time about whether or not I really had a problem (January 09 before the fix was out), so I thought I would accelerate the issue for the purposes of consensus building.
When I finally got back into the MINI dealer for the fix that works, my timing chain was way out of specification. They replaced the camshaft sprocket, the tensioner, the guides, the pulleys, the chain, everything.
Do not think you have to shut your car down until the issue is resolved. While you certainly do not want to drive any more than normal and you do want to get to the dealer as soon as is reasonable, don't be afraid to use your car. That is the purpose of owning it.
It is your responsibility to notify MINI of the problem and comply with their need of the car for service. The faulty components and consequential damages are MINI's liability.
The death rattle is an intimidating noise, but you need not fear it. MINI has a fix and will implement it for you. This is really no drama now that the fix is available.
I also did not observe the advice to employ low RPMs during the rattle. MINI was giving me a hard time about whether or not I really had a problem (January 09 before the fix was out), so I thought I would accelerate the issue for the purposes of consensus building.
When I finally got back into the MINI dealer for the fix that works, my timing chain was way out of specification. They replaced the camshaft sprocket, the tensioner, the guides, the pulleys, the chain, everything.
Do not think you have to shut your car down until the issue is resolved. While you certainly do not want to drive any more than normal and you do want to get to the dealer as soon as is reasonable, don't be afraid to use your car. That is the purpose of owning it.
It is your responsibility to notify MINI of the problem and comply with their need of the car for service. The faulty components and consequential damages are MINI's liability.
The death rattle is an intimidating noise, but you need not fear it. MINI has a fix and will implement it for you. This is really no drama now that the fix is available.
I can confirm that a bunch of track days will make that noise permanent, so if you want to speed things along ...
5th Gear
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 918
Likes: 0
I looked at the BMW tech site this weekend and the current fix tells them to make a measurement of the timing chain. If its above 68mm all the parts get replaced if not only the tensioner. According to the service document mine was 66mm so only the tensioner was replaced. My car only has 8000 miles or so so hopefully its OK..
Terry
Terry
The noise would happen very infrequently on my car (2008 Cooper S week 1 of 2008), but when it did it would sound like a bucket of bolts. It's pretty warm in NJ these days so I won't know for sure that this issue is solved until it gets colder, but Morristown MINI tells me that it shouldn't happen again.
I do want to say that if you're in NJ and having this issue, check out Morristown MINI as they are well aware of this and won't give you a hard time even if the sound is not reproduceable (it wasn't on mine due to warm weather). The bulletin tells them to measure the chain if the customer complains about noise.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
I took my car to Morristown MINI in NJ and they told me the exact same thing. They measured, it was 67mm so they just replaced my chain tensioner with the new part.
The noise would happen very infrequently on my car (2008 Cooper S week 1 of 2008), but when it did it would sound like a bucket of bolts. It's pretty warm in NJ these days so I won't know for sure that this issue is solved until it gets colder, but Morristown MINI tells me that it shouldn't happen again.
I do want to say that if you're in NJ and having this issue, check out Morristown MINI as they are well aware of this and won't give you a hard time even if the sound is not reproduceable (it wasn't on mine due to warm weather). The bulletin tells them to measure the chain if the customer complains about noise.
The noise would happen very infrequently on my car (2008 Cooper S week 1 of 2008), but when it did it would sound like a bucket of bolts. It's pretty warm in NJ these days so I won't know for sure that this issue is solved until it gets colder, but Morristown MINI tells me that it shouldn't happen again.
I do want to say that if you're in NJ and having this issue, check out Morristown MINI as they are well aware of this and won't give you a hard time even if the sound is not reproduceable (it wasn't on mine due to warm weather). The bulletin tells them to measure the chain if the customer complains about noise.
5th Gear
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 918
Likes: 0
Any word or idea of how Prestige handles the issue? That's where I got mine from. My 07 does it pretty infrequently as well and lasts only several seconds when it does. I'm due for service in 900 miles and have been debating on whether I should mention it to them or not.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
From: Florence, Oregon
Any word or idea of how Prestige handles the issue? That's where I got mine from. My 07 does it pretty infrequently as well and lasts only several seconds when it does. I'm due for service in 900 miles and have been debating on whether I should mention it to them or not.
Remember that whenever your engine is making the morning start "death rattle" sound, the timing chain is not tensioned adequately, and is flailing away on rails, guides, sprockets, and the front cover. Damage is occurring. Since your car is already exhibiting the problem, it will be a lot cheaper for BMW to replace just the $20 tensioner piston now, then to wait until the total wear and tear on the chain system dictates a complete replacement of parts - very expensive for BMW!
Even if your dealer says they can't replicate the noise, you've got it on the books that you asked them to fix it, if there are questions over warranty repairs down the road.
Last edited by oldMGguy; May 31, 2009 at 04:44 PM. Reason: spelling
Model: MCSc, manual
Build Date: Week 14
Miles: 1284
Duration: ~20 seconds, till I turned off the engine
Frequency: 1st time last night, 2nd time this morning
RPM range: backing up
Ambient Temp: ~70 deg
Oil: factory fill
Any other relevant information: Brand new cabrio, less than 1 month old. This is kinda disappointing... for the two years I owned an early build MCS R56 (Feb 2007), it never experienced this problem.
Build Date: Week 14
Miles: 1284
Duration: ~20 seconds, till I turned off the engine
Frequency: 1st time last night, 2nd time this morning
RPM range: backing up
Ambient Temp: ~70 deg
Oil: factory fill
Any other relevant information: Brand new cabrio, less than 1 month old. This is kinda disappointing... for the two years I owned an early build MCS R56 (Feb 2007), it never experienced this problem.
I've got mine going into Mini Yaletown today for 1st oil change and to fix the 'death rattle'. I think they're a little doubtful that I actually have the problem. They also mentioned that S IM 11 02 07 was US memo so they're not 100% confident it will apply to Canadian. I sure hope I get this fixed today 
Does anybody have a PDF of the PuMA 10686850-13 directive?
Does anybody have a PDF of the PuMA 10686850-13 directive?
Last edited by Rixter; Jun 1, 2009 at 11:42 AM.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Yes - definitely bring it up and have it entered into your car's records. Tell the SA that you are familiar with the chain tensioner problem detailed in the BMW bulletin SIM-11-02-07, and that you wish to have them check it out.
Remember that whenever your engine is making the morning start "death rattle" sound, the timing chain is not tensioned adequately, and is flailing away on rails, guides, sprockets, and the front cover. Damage is occurring. Since your car is already exhibiting the problem, it will be a lot cheaper for BMW to replace just the $20 tensioner piston now, then to wait until the total wear and tear on the chain system dictates a complete replacement of parts - very expensive for BMW!
Even if your dealer says they can't replicate the noise, you've got it on the books that you asked them to fix it, if there are questions over warranty repairs down the road.
Remember that whenever your engine is making the morning start "death rattle" sound, the timing chain is not tensioned adequately, and is flailing away on rails, guides, sprockets, and the front cover. Damage is occurring. Since your car is already exhibiting the problem, it will be a lot cheaper for BMW to replace just the $20 tensioner piston now, then to wait until the total wear and tear on the chain system dictates a complete replacement of parts - very expensive for BMW!
Even if your dealer says they can't replicate the noise, you've got it on the books that you asked them to fix it, if there are questions over warranty repairs down the road.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
From: Florence, Oregon
If the measurement is over the limit, the techs send off the readings to the regional BMW engineers, who will authorize the full monty. That process may take several days. The actual swap-out of parts takes a full day.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Replacing the tensioner piston is not much more complicated then replacing a spark plug. However, the bulletin requires the tech to check several other systems, like the vacuum pump, to see if it is the source of the chain rattle. The new piston is installed temporarily, then torqued to a given value to check the total deflection of the timing chain (which indirectly measures the accumulated wear on the guide and rail faces, as well as chain stretch). If less than a certain amount, the tensioner is all you get, and you're on your way. Maybe an hour.
If the measurement is over the limit, the techs send off the readings to the regional BMW engineers, who will authorize the full monty. That process may take several days. The actual swap-out of parts takes a full day.
If the measurement is over the limit, the techs send off the readings to the regional BMW engineers, who will authorize the full monty. That process may take several days. The actual swap-out of parts takes a full day.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
From: Florence, Oregon
Forget all PuMA references. We got that one wrong. It was originally posted on the British MINI2 forum by one of the first guys to get the latest tensioner repair and we all ran with it by mistake. "PuMA" is BMW German-speak for the engineering tracking file linked to a specific car and it's reported mechanical problem. If you drag you car into the dealer because the left rear tire keeps falling off, and the techs are having an issue fixing it, BMW creates a "PuMA" file linked to your VIN detailing the specifics.
Your SA and the tech working on your timing chain problem will reference the technical bulletin SIM-11-02-07 for guidance. There's a PDF posted on the "Cold Start" sub-forum.
Your SA and the tech working on your timing chain problem will reference the technical bulletin SIM-11-02-07 for guidance. There's a PDF posted on the "Cold Start" sub-forum.
Im not optimistic they're going to find the problem. I dropped the car off today (along with SIM110207), so of course the engine's warm. I documented the sequence I have to go thru to duplicate the problem, which for me has always ment leaving it over night. If the start it first thing in the am, stop it, restarted 1/2 hour later, then shut it down, and then wait 6 hours, they're not going to get an adequate test before the end of the day. They expect to get the car back to me tomorrow. I'd rather have them not worry about duplicating the sound, rather focus on the timing chain measurement.
I'm worried this is going to go back and forth before it's solved.
I'm worried this is going to go back and forth before it's solved.
Neutral
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Im not optimistic they're going to find the problem. I dropped the car off today (along with SIM110207), so of course the engine's warm. I documented the sequence I have to go thru to duplicate the problem, which for me has always ment leaving it over night. If the start it first thing in the am, stop it, restarted 1/2 hour later, then shut it down, and then wait 6 hours, they're not going to get an adequate test before the end of the day. They expect to get the car back to me tomorrow. I'd rather have them not worry about duplicating the sound, rather focus on the timing chain measurement.
I'm worried this is going to go back and forth before it's solved.
I'm worried this is going to go back and forth before it's solved.
Last edited by Panozster; Jun 3, 2009 at 04:47 PM. Reason: forgot a word
If you need to be SURE, you will never buy any car. If you love the MINI, get one. They are the most fun there is on the road.
Good news / bad news
Good news; Yaletown Mini decided to replace all the parts according to SIM110207. Kudos to them for being willing to fix the problem without being able to duplicate the actual noise.
Bad news; the car idled quite rough when I picked it up, the engine light went on, and at a stop sign the RPMs dropped down momentarily before recovering (without me touching the accelerator).
Needless to say I promptly drove back to the shop. They gave me a 1-series loaner and I've got to go back tomorrow.
If anybody has any suggestions what might be causing the new problem and how it could be related to the timing-chain replacement, I'd love to hear.
Bad news; the car idled quite rough when I picked it up, the engine light went on, and at a stop sign the RPMs dropped down momentarily before recovering (without me touching the accelerator).
Needless to say I promptly drove back to the shop. They gave me a 1-series loaner and I've got to go back tomorrow.
If anybody has any suggestions what might be causing the new problem and how it could be related to the timing-chain replacement, I'd love to hear.
4th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: Lombard, IL
Good news; Yaletown Mini decided to replace all the parts according to SIM110207. Kudos to them for being willing to fix the problem without being able to duplicate the actual noise.
Bad news; the car idled quite rough when I picked it up, the engine light went on, and at a stop sign the RPMs dropped down momentarily before recovering (without me touching the accelerator).
Needless to say I promptly drove back to the shop. They gave me a 1-series loaner and I've got to go back tomorrow.
If anybody has any suggestions what might be causing the new problem and how it could be related to the timing-chain replacement, I'd love to hear.
Bad news; the car idled quite rough when I picked it up, the engine light went on, and at a stop sign the RPMs dropped down momentarily before recovering (without me touching the accelerator).
Needless to say I promptly drove back to the shop. They gave me a 1-series loaner and I've got to go back tomorrow.
If anybody has any suggestions what might be causing the new problem and how it could be related to the timing-chain replacement, I'd love to hear.
On the phone today they mentioned something about a vacuum line that they fixed. They're also now replacing the entire sunroof for me cause it sticks when opening and has already been fixed once. I want to drive past the dealership and start up Spike and see if the vacuum line(s) have been fixed.
Just curious, once they fixed the vacuum line(s) how did your Mini run?
6th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,790
Likes: 10
From: Kansas City
I had my chain tensioner replaced today, and when I got the rec't back it said SIB 11 - 02 - 07, not SIM, just FYI............
My car was supposed to be outside the chassis range that was supposed to have th eproblem, but they were able to get it to make the noise so they got authorization from MINI to replace it. It measured out at 66.5mm and the wrote that the spring was weak........
My car was supposed to be outside the chassis range that was supposed to have th eproblem, but they were able to get it to make the noise so they got authorization from MINI to replace it. It measured out at 66.5mm and the wrote that the spring was weak........
It won't really matter if it's SI M or SIB. The PDF print out that I got, which somebody got from the internal Mini USA site says SI M 11 02 07. I would assume that "SI" stands for Service Information and the 'M' for Mini. But it really doesn't matter. You're dealer and you are both on the same page. Which is great.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
From: Florence, Oregon
These things are just a hoot to drive!
4th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: Lombard, IL
Ok I'm glad it made somebody happy
On the phone today they mentioned something about a vacuum line that they fixed. They're also now replacing the entire sunroof for me cause it sticks when opening and has already been fixed once. I want to drive past the dealership and start up Spike and see if the vacuum line(s) have been fixed.
Just curious, once they fixed the vacuum line(s) how did your Mini run?
On the phone today they mentioned something about a vacuum line that they fixed. They're also now replacing the entire sunroof for me cause it sticks when opening and has already been fixed once. I want to drive past the dealership and start up Spike and see if the vacuum line(s) have been fixed.
Just curious, once they fixed the vacuum line(s) how did your Mini run?
Since having the problem with the vacuum line the car idles much rougher with backfires you can feel and has a tendancy for the RPMs (~500) to take a dip when at low speed (stop signs, etc).I have since taken the car back to the dealer to address these issues and was told it was "normal" and that all turbocharged cars backfire... to which I said that is fine but why did mine not do it BEFORE it went in to the dealer and now it does...
I will be asking the dealer to re-evaluate the situation durring the next service ~3000 miles...
Hey really sorry to hear that. I had a big fear of that, especially after the 'fix' was made. Yaletown did address the issue (I'll dig up the service report and see what they fixed). Regardless whether your car is worse off as a result of the 'fix' or not, if it's under warrenty you dealership should still deal with the issues. Can you bring it to another dealer?