Why has NAM become boring?
Thread Starter
|
4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted by ChiliCooperS
so what ever did happen to El Diablito?
There is a gallery he still has, but NAM is not listing him as a member!
Mikey
There is a gallery he still has, but NAM is not listing him as a member!
Mikey
But couldn't he just use a different email address and get a new logon handle? That would be fun if he'd come back on here in steath mode!
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,802
Likes: 0
From: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted by minimonkey
He was banned... banished... never to be heard from again.
But couldn't he just use a different email address and get a new logon handle? That would be fun if he'd come back on here in steath mode!
But couldn't he just use a different email address and get a new logon handle? That would be fun if he'd come back on here in steath mode!
:smile:
Banned
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,382
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by ChiliCooperS
so what REALLY happened?
We are members on this site because we agree to follow the rules laid out.
Being polite, helpful, and knowing when to back down, no matter what you think, will probably let you have fun on this great site.
And to those that think some threads are stupid, well get over it, don't read/post in them.
Being able to yak about modding a MINI, finding out about the MPG any kind of MINI might get, what tunes you listen to in your MINI,detailing your MINI, what seems to go wrong with MINIs, how your pet likes your MINI,
what keeps you and your MINI up late at night,how to get the most out of your MINI on the track, or what colour is best for MINI, can be talked about here.
If your bored here on NAM, go for a motor, then let us know how it went
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 2
From: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted by Greatbear
Let's just say he's taken a little Trippy. 
Calling all cars,
Tatt
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
Interesting thread. I have been on this site from day one, although it took me a little while to become a member. I have not posted in a while because I just got tired in the site. I started to get nagging notes when I logged onto the site in the last few weeks, saying that I hadn't posted in a while, so I figured I would post on this thread.
I do think that the site has changed a lot. Enough in a direction that I don't have a lot of desire to come back here. I think in general the posting is getting weaker. How many threads do we have to start on the effects of adding a 15% pulley? While I am all for the newbies getting information, after a while it seems like the same exact threads are being recreated every 7 days. I think a lot of the people who had interesting posts, have either gotten banned, or have just stopped posting as much. You notice that a lot of the comments attached to this thread are from long term members.
Only clo and Octane Guy have posted from a moderators group, and no comments from DiD or Mark. While granted it is there site and they are free to do with it as they please, it would be nice to have feedback from them on their thoughts of this as well. If posters all start leaving or stop contributing to the site, it becomes a "non-site". On the flip side, I am sure that they appreciate the comments every so often to get feedback from the general community. A new set of Site Guidelines have been published and just reading them gives you a bad taste in your mouth. They seem negatively slanted and heavy handed. Only one positive word is noted in the whole site guideline "enhance". There is no positive slant on "building up a community". With the lack of a vision statement placed on the site, then the guidelines by default become the written "vision" of the site. And I think the guidelines at this point come across as a mechanized set of rules from a corporate entity. Not the "grass-roots" community that it started out as. What is interesting is that I don't think the guidelines are directing this community, but I think they are an outcome of the changes that have been occuring over the last year or so. I think guideline #1 states "posts not on topic....will be deleted without notice". I think this guideline has had the most impact on the community, and one in which there is not a clear guideline, or even if moderators are following the same guidelines. Whole swaths of information are lost, from posts and/or threads they may have either been good and degraded or had some good information, but not entirely on topic. This has frusturated a lot of us.
Also, I think there is less vendor involvement. People like Randy were pushed out to make way for other vendors, and even Randy himself has gone onto supporting other cars like the Lotus Elise. There is not much new product support. In fact over the last 6 months, I think only M7 has released any products. Not many really exciting vendors have been added recently. With the lack of new vendors and the lack of new products, it brings a lot of dullness from that perspective.
Lastly, I also think the community will change as a natural evolution of the clients purchasing the cars. Those of us who had the cars early on, know that we had a unique, "rare" car that brought a lot of cache to our community. The car is now becoming a lot more common and as Mini brings in more models, and ramps up production, increases showrooms... the car's customer base will change. This has the tendency to water down what we had in the beginning. People won't wave as much, because they didn't purchase the car for the community, but more because it was a cheap alternative that looked cute. Besides when you see 15-20 a day it get's tiring to wave at everyone and you just forget noticing. I have notice this to be true in Atlanta, when sometimes there are three of us at a light. Also, a lot of people are being pulled away from this site and going to smaller niche sites and supplementing it with Gabe's great information site. With Gabe's site and a lot of these smaller niche sites or local club sites, there isn't really any reason to go to NAM. Why go to a massive site that is becoming more and more bogged down with "useless information" (not all is useless, but it is increasing at an exponential rate), and contains no "breaking" news? I can go to Gabe's site and get breaking news, with no frills. And then I can supplement it with a site that is geared more specifically to what I want (whether it is a local club site, racing site....).
I have enjoyed the site, but I just think there is a lack of vision on what the site is trying to be. And because of that it tries to become something for everyone and thus waters itself down. Some people may like this mega site that has everything on it, but I really, truly think there is just less and less reasons to come back. I would be really interested in what Mark's ideas are on the site and what his vision is. It is interesting this thread has been going on for almost a month with 6 pages of replies and not a single comment from the "owners" of this site. Interesting.
I do think that the site has changed a lot. Enough in a direction that I don't have a lot of desire to come back here. I think in general the posting is getting weaker. How many threads do we have to start on the effects of adding a 15% pulley? While I am all for the newbies getting information, after a while it seems like the same exact threads are being recreated every 7 days. I think a lot of the people who had interesting posts, have either gotten banned, or have just stopped posting as much. You notice that a lot of the comments attached to this thread are from long term members.
Only clo and Octane Guy have posted from a moderators group, and no comments from DiD or Mark. While granted it is there site and they are free to do with it as they please, it would be nice to have feedback from them on their thoughts of this as well. If posters all start leaving or stop contributing to the site, it becomes a "non-site". On the flip side, I am sure that they appreciate the comments every so often to get feedback from the general community. A new set of Site Guidelines have been published and just reading them gives you a bad taste in your mouth. They seem negatively slanted and heavy handed. Only one positive word is noted in the whole site guideline "enhance". There is no positive slant on "building up a community". With the lack of a vision statement placed on the site, then the guidelines by default become the written "vision" of the site. And I think the guidelines at this point come across as a mechanized set of rules from a corporate entity. Not the "grass-roots" community that it started out as. What is interesting is that I don't think the guidelines are directing this community, but I think they are an outcome of the changes that have been occuring over the last year or so. I think guideline #1 states "posts not on topic....will be deleted without notice". I think this guideline has had the most impact on the community, and one in which there is not a clear guideline, or even if moderators are following the same guidelines. Whole swaths of information are lost, from posts and/or threads they may have either been good and degraded or had some good information, but not entirely on topic. This has frusturated a lot of us.
Also, I think there is less vendor involvement. People like Randy were pushed out to make way for other vendors, and even Randy himself has gone onto supporting other cars like the Lotus Elise. There is not much new product support. In fact over the last 6 months, I think only M7 has released any products. Not many really exciting vendors have been added recently. With the lack of new vendors and the lack of new products, it brings a lot of dullness from that perspective.
Lastly, I also think the community will change as a natural evolution of the clients purchasing the cars. Those of us who had the cars early on, know that we had a unique, "rare" car that brought a lot of cache to our community. The car is now becoming a lot more common and as Mini brings in more models, and ramps up production, increases showrooms... the car's customer base will change. This has the tendency to water down what we had in the beginning. People won't wave as much, because they didn't purchase the car for the community, but more because it was a cheap alternative that looked cute. Besides when you see 15-20 a day it get's tiring to wave at everyone and you just forget noticing. I have notice this to be true in Atlanta, when sometimes there are three of us at a light. Also, a lot of people are being pulled away from this site and going to smaller niche sites and supplementing it with Gabe's great information site. With Gabe's site and a lot of these smaller niche sites or local club sites, there isn't really any reason to go to NAM. Why go to a massive site that is becoming more and more bogged down with "useless information" (not all is useless, but it is increasing at an exponential rate), and contains no "breaking" news? I can go to Gabe's site and get breaking news, with no frills. And then I can supplement it with a site that is geared more specifically to what I want (whether it is a local club site, racing site....).
I have enjoyed the site, but I just think there is a lack of vision on what the site is trying to be. And because of that it tries to become something for everyone and thus waters itself down. Some people may like this mega site that has everything on it, but I really, truly think there is just less and less reasons to come back. I would be really interested in what Mark's ideas are on the site and what his vision is. It is interesting this thread has been going on for almost a month with 6 pages of replies and not a single comment from the "owners" of this site. Interesting.
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 918
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
I have to second some of the points dgszweda1 made. I haven't posted much in a long time but I have been peeking in at the site almost daily. There does seem to be a lot of thread repetition about pulleys, etc., but that is to be expected somewhat. There are only so many topics that can be discussed before you start to repeat. It's just hard to come up with something new to add to all these repeat threads and I'm not one to post just for the sake of increasing my post count.
Also, speaking for myself (and probably others), I find myself spending much of my online MINI time on my local MINI group's site (www.nemini.org). Between my job and my projects outside of work, I don't have a lot of time to go wading through multiple forums. It's all I can do to keep up with NEMINI and even there I don't post as much as some others do.
But I can't see myself ever leaving NAM. There is a lot of good info here and it's the first place I go when I'm trying to research somethinig. Not to mention, its one-stop shopping for all the bigger MINI vendors.
Also, speaking for myself (and probably others), I find myself spending much of my online MINI time on my local MINI group's site (www.nemini.org). Between my job and my projects outside of work, I don't have a lot of time to go wading through multiple forums. It's all I can do to keep up with NEMINI and even there I don't post as much as some others do.
But I can't see myself ever leaving NAM. There is a lot of good info here and it's the first place I go when I'm trying to research somethinig. Not to mention, its one-stop shopping for all the bigger MINI vendors.
Moderator :: Performance Mods
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,427
Likes: 6
From: A Den in Maryland
I share the same thoughts with dgszweda1 regarding the concept of 'community'. I was first attracted to NAM (nee MCO) by the efforts put forth by the forum community. Here were people gathering and sharing their thoughts, ideads and products for a bold new car that no one had any experience with. It is that community spirit and outreach that sealed the decision for me to buy a MINI.
Over time, I feel that commercial interests have taken precedence over community building. Granted, Mr. Fergusen needs a means to keep the lights on and have a place for the aforementioned community to gather and grow. But in recent times the emphasis has been almost solely in the commercial realm.
The moderation also has become more heavy-handed and capricious recently. The rewrite of the guidelines bears some of this out. What were once 'guidelines' are now 'rules'. Inflexibility is in. the banning of certain members results in all of their posts being deleted. Solid, thoughtful contributions are vanishing from the threads, making what remains disconnected and sometimes unreadable. Some moderators are acting on personal rather than community needs in the editing and removal of posts. There is also an appearance of conflict of interest at times.
Some posters have simply resorted to complaints rather than using the tools available to them to get the content they want. Some complain about fluff posts and signature graphics 'getting in the way' of 'real' content. Fluff posts are a fact of life in a community site that contains off-topic forums. People come here looking for staid information will find it, but that does not make people hang around. This site is like your television set. There are many channels with the programming you want, and no one is forcing you to read the stuff that does not interest you. Dont like signature graphics? Go into your user control panel and shut 'em off. Use the Pulse to get the latest auto-related content or pull up your topic of choice and refresh it periodically to see the latest content in that area. It's simple. Problem is, this gives people one less thing they would be wanting to complain about.
A few more words about advertising and community involvement. Of all the mods I added to my car, not one single product or service was selected based on an advertisement, either here or elsewhere. It was the community's word of mouth recommendations and independent voice that helped me decide what is best for my car. Hell, I bought the car itself based on other's opinions and technical insights and assurances, not from any ads.
I too find it interesting (as well as sad) that none of the site owners have bothered to comment in this thread. It may be more convenient to head for the 'delete thread' button in their admin panels than it is to respond to some queries and concerns, but in the past, I have been mostly pleased with the fairness most issues have received. More moderators are needed, as having a varied collection of them contributes to a greater pool of opinions that might not run afoul of personal feelings of only a few. In other words, less tyranny at the top.
NAM may have become boring, but there is still some potential to save it before it's too late. Continue to reach out at the community level to the folks that have made this site what it is. Do whatever is necessary to keep the technically savvy folks from jumping ship. In a bit over a year, everything we know here will be completely turned on it's head as the '07 MINIs come out. Every single mod part and idea that we have come to know will no longer apply. Without knowledgeable people like Randy, et al on the forefront working WITH the MINI owners to develop the goodies we have all come to know (and basically taken for granted lately), we'll be stuck groping about blindly trying to make our rides as unique as every person here on the boards. That 15% pulley that you poo-poo about showing up in repeated threads will only be a paperweight in the future.
My posting here has lessened over the last year as scrutiny of mod effectiveness and innovation has taken a back seat to protecting vendors and thoughtful discussion in on- and off-topic forums has become more censored and neutered. I'm beginning to find the information as well as areas of discussion elsewhere, but I continue to peek in on NAM and help out where I can. I miss the input from those who have taken the MINI to the limits and beyond who no longer post due to the increasingly restrictive atmosphere or who have been summarily vaporized along with their past, valid contributions. The people running NAM need to seriously rethink some of their actions in this regard before this site become gutted of any real content and just becomes a clearinghouse for advertisers with little community involvement.
Just my 2 pence.
Over time, I feel that commercial interests have taken precedence over community building. Granted, Mr. Fergusen needs a means to keep the lights on and have a place for the aforementioned community to gather and grow. But in recent times the emphasis has been almost solely in the commercial realm.
The moderation also has become more heavy-handed and capricious recently. The rewrite of the guidelines bears some of this out. What were once 'guidelines' are now 'rules'. Inflexibility is in. the banning of certain members results in all of their posts being deleted. Solid, thoughtful contributions are vanishing from the threads, making what remains disconnected and sometimes unreadable. Some moderators are acting on personal rather than community needs in the editing and removal of posts. There is also an appearance of conflict of interest at times.
Some posters have simply resorted to complaints rather than using the tools available to them to get the content they want. Some complain about fluff posts and signature graphics 'getting in the way' of 'real' content. Fluff posts are a fact of life in a community site that contains off-topic forums. People come here looking for staid information will find it, but that does not make people hang around. This site is like your television set. There are many channels with the programming you want, and no one is forcing you to read the stuff that does not interest you. Dont like signature graphics? Go into your user control panel and shut 'em off. Use the Pulse to get the latest auto-related content or pull up your topic of choice and refresh it periodically to see the latest content in that area. It's simple. Problem is, this gives people one less thing they would be wanting to complain about.
A few more words about advertising and community involvement. Of all the mods I added to my car, not one single product or service was selected based on an advertisement, either here or elsewhere. It was the community's word of mouth recommendations and independent voice that helped me decide what is best for my car. Hell, I bought the car itself based on other's opinions and technical insights and assurances, not from any ads.
I too find it interesting (as well as sad) that none of the site owners have bothered to comment in this thread. It may be more convenient to head for the 'delete thread' button in their admin panels than it is to respond to some queries and concerns, but in the past, I have been mostly pleased with the fairness most issues have received. More moderators are needed, as having a varied collection of them contributes to a greater pool of opinions that might not run afoul of personal feelings of only a few. In other words, less tyranny at the top.
NAM may have become boring, but there is still some potential to save it before it's too late. Continue to reach out at the community level to the folks that have made this site what it is. Do whatever is necessary to keep the technically savvy folks from jumping ship. In a bit over a year, everything we know here will be completely turned on it's head as the '07 MINIs come out. Every single mod part and idea that we have come to know will no longer apply. Without knowledgeable people like Randy, et al on the forefront working WITH the MINI owners to develop the goodies we have all come to know (and basically taken for granted lately), we'll be stuck groping about blindly trying to make our rides as unique as every person here on the boards. That 15% pulley that you poo-poo about showing up in repeated threads will only be a paperweight in the future.
My posting here has lessened over the last year as scrutiny of mod effectiveness and innovation has taken a back seat to protecting vendors and thoughtful discussion in on- and off-topic forums has become more censored and neutered. I'm beginning to find the information as well as areas of discussion elsewhere, but I continue to peek in on NAM and help out where I can. I miss the input from those who have taken the MINI to the limits and beyond who no longer post due to the increasingly restrictive atmosphere or who have been summarily vaporized along with their past, valid contributions. The people running NAM need to seriously rethink some of their actions in this regard before this site become gutted of any real content and just becomes a clearinghouse for advertisers with little community involvement.
Just my 2 pence.
Last edited by Greatbear; Jul 5, 2005 at 11:55 AM. Reason: typoe
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Mini2
Originally Posted by minimonkey
I agree... this is part of what I miss. I may not have agreed with the more colorful figures (on here in the past)... but I always respected they're right to express there opinon. Often, I could see there side too... even if it wasn't my position too. But that was a part of what made NAM interesting.
I started this thread... because the kind of response that's happening here - is exactly what I hoped for.
I started this thread... because the kind of response that's happening here - is exactly what I hoped for.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Say it loud
Originally Posted by holdenontoit
Interesting topic. I too have taken a little sebatical from this site with a little help from the IT **** at work 
. I have had an entire thread vaporized and followed it by the following :
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ree+speech+NAM
I too have noticed that I seem to have less in common with what seems to be going on here. The joe dentist's and el diablito's of this site kept us honest and in my opinion, kept it interesting.I may not have agreed with everything they had to say, but I'll defend to death their right to say it. This is a forum that's in the public domain and as such is subject to the ammendment governing free speech. but not really, huh? It's topics like this one that are thought provoking and new and fresh that keep me coming back. If I see another "what sex is your MINI?" or "what's your MINI'S name ?" thread pop up, you probably won't see a lot more of me.
Jock
. I have had an entire thread vaporized and followed it by the following :https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ree+speech+NAM
I too have noticed that I seem to have less in common with what seems to be going on here. The joe dentist's and el diablito's of this site kept us honest and in my opinion, kept it interesting.I may not have agreed with everything they had to say, but I'll defend to death their right to say it. This is a forum that's in the public domain and as such is subject to the ammendment governing free speech. but not really, huh? It's topics like this one that are thought provoking and new and fresh that keep me coming back. If I see another "what sex is your MINI?" or "what's your MINI'S name ?" thread pop up, you probably won't see a lot more of me.
Jock
I would tell you, but then I would not be allowed on NAM any more @@#$!!!!!!!!
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Eric_Rowland
Here we go again.
Actually, it's NOT in the public domain. It's a private site on a private server. You get to say whatever you want in the town square, but the site owner gets to decide what you get to say here (and reasonably so.) I'd rather the moderation were a bit more lax (RIP OTP) but it's still the best around (for me.)
Actually, it's NOT in the public domain. It's a private site on a private server. You get to say whatever you want in the town square, but the site owner gets to decide what you get to say here (and reasonably so.) I'd rather the moderation were a bit more lax (RIP OTP) but it's still the best around (for me.)
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,922
Likes: 0
From: Midwest
NAM is a small community. I am a member on MINI2 also and I just don't like how "big" of a place it really is. Plus most of threads there are about european models, which I do not have an interest in. So I'll stay on NAM, but we have to find some more subjects to post about!
Mikey
Mikey
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
One last item. In the last two months every single post on Site Feedback (except 2) has been responded to by DiD and mferguson. You will have to go back to 11/2003 to find another post in the Site Feedback that has generated this many posts (and that only beat it by one post). So I figure in a day or so this post will have exceeded the number of posts any SiteFeedback post has ever generated (OT:P wasn't in this forum or it has since been deleted), and not one peep or comment by either of the Site Admins. I am not ragging on them, or at least not trying to. It is just that I felt I that I built up this community, by participating (finally getting to 6th gear) and meeting other members. And then in the last few months everything has changed with no explanation. A few people brought stuff up, but it got locked or deleted. I am just not sure what to think anymore. If this thread gets locked or deleted, or no one responds to this thread, as should be done, then I am not sure what to think anymore.
pug poo picker-upper
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,803
Likes: 30
From: California
Here is the rundown from our moderation log for the moderation action taken in threads by the Moderation Team on the site in the past three weeks:
Today:
1. a series of threads removed or edited today after a member using a second account started trolling under an alias
2. The July photo contest thread stuck to the top of Camera and Video
3. The Tour de France thread was retitled in Off Topic
Yesterday
4. edited a post in Vendor Announcements to remove extra text formatting tags
July 3rd
5. a post violating site guidelines was deleted since an aftermarket company didn't have a vendor agreement in place yet but was promoting a product
July 2
6. three threads stuck in the Hawaii forum
7. thread move to off topic
8. double post removed
9. double post removed
July 1
10. thread moved to the SoCal forum
11. thread stuck to camera and video to announce contest winner
12. thread removed (the poll for the photo contest)
June 30th
13. Douple post deleted from Beneath the Bonnet
14. Double post deleted from Off Topic
15. Thread posted twice, theads merged and first post of 2nd thread deleted (same as 1st post in 1st thread)
June 29th
16. Thread LOCKED for violation of site guidelines related to posting about street racing
17. Thread moved to Off Topic
18. Threads merged and duplicate post deleted
19. Thread stuck to performance mods :: suspension
June 28th
20. Thread moved from MINI Talk to Beneath the Bonnet
21. Threads merged and duplicate posts deleted
22. Thead moved from MINI talk to Off Topic
June 27th
23. Thread moved from Off Topic to Classic Mini Talk
24. Thread title edited
25. Duplicate thread deleted
26. Thread unstuck in regional forum by Core Moderator
June 25th
27. Commercial posting deleted since no vendor agreement was in place
28. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
29. Photo contest topic announcment closed, unstuck, and locked
30. photo contest poll stuck
31. Thread related to the dragon moved to the dragon forum
32. Thread moved to MINI Talk from Travel stories
June 24th
33. Thread moved to Southern California from MINI Talk
34. Threads violating site guidelines related to commercial posting by non site supporting vendor removed.
35. Thread title edited
36. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
37. Post violating site guidelines related to commercial posting by non site supporting vendor removed.
38. Thread violating site guidelines related to commercial posting by non site supporting vendor removed.
June 23rd
39. Post edited for formatting issues
June 22nd
40. Thread removed for violation of site guidelines related to posting about street racing
41. Thead moved to Interior/Exterior from MINI Talk
June 21st
42. Thead moved to Mid-Atlantic
43. Threads merged
44. Thread with multiple site guidelins violations and personal attacks removed
45. Theads merged
June 20th
46. Thread title edited for better display on Pulse
47. Thread moved to Off Topic Autos
48. Thread moved to detailing forum
49. "Test" Thread posted in wrong forum deleted after user indicated test was over
June 19th
50. Threads merged
51. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
52. Thread moved to Off Topic
June 17th
53. Double posted thread deleted
54. thread moved to National Events
55. Post violating site guidelines related to commercial posting by non site supporting vendor removed.
June 16th
56. Thread title edited
57. Thread moved to Off Topic
58. Thread moved to West Coast Coopers club forum after forum was built out.
June 15th
59. Threads merged
60. Thread moved to Off Topic Autos
61. Thread moved to Site Feedback
62. Thread title edited
63. Thread moved to Site Feedback
64. Thread moved to SoCal
65. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
66. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
June 14th
67. Thread title edited
That takes us back through the past three weeks of activity where moderators logged activity in threads. During that same time three accounts were removed or merged as a result of users creating duplicate accounts on the site. Additionally, approximately 15 members were contacted regarding the size of their signature image being larger than the site guidelines permitted.
I'll post more later, but that is the history log of the past three weeks.
Today:
1. a series of threads removed or edited today after a member using a second account started trolling under an alias
2. The July photo contest thread stuck to the top of Camera and Video
3. The Tour de France thread was retitled in Off Topic
Yesterday
4. edited a post in Vendor Announcements to remove extra text formatting tags
July 3rd
5. a post violating site guidelines was deleted since an aftermarket company didn't have a vendor agreement in place yet but was promoting a product
July 2
6. three threads stuck in the Hawaii forum
7. thread move to off topic
8. double post removed
9. double post removed
July 1
10. thread moved to the SoCal forum
11. thread stuck to camera and video to announce contest winner
12. thread removed (the poll for the photo contest)
June 30th
13. Douple post deleted from Beneath the Bonnet
14. Double post deleted from Off Topic
15. Thread posted twice, theads merged and first post of 2nd thread deleted (same as 1st post in 1st thread)
June 29th
16. Thread LOCKED for violation of site guidelines related to posting about street racing
17. Thread moved to Off Topic
18. Threads merged and duplicate post deleted
19. Thread stuck to performance mods :: suspension
June 28th
20. Thread moved from MINI Talk to Beneath the Bonnet
21. Threads merged and duplicate posts deleted
22. Thead moved from MINI talk to Off Topic
June 27th
23. Thread moved from Off Topic to Classic Mini Talk
24. Thread title edited
25. Duplicate thread deleted
26. Thread unstuck in regional forum by Core Moderator
June 25th
27. Commercial posting deleted since no vendor agreement was in place
28. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
29. Photo contest topic announcment closed, unstuck, and locked
30. photo contest poll stuck
31. Thread related to the dragon moved to the dragon forum
32. Thread moved to MINI Talk from Travel stories
June 24th
33. Thread moved to Southern California from MINI Talk
34. Threads violating site guidelines related to commercial posting by non site supporting vendor removed.
35. Thread title edited
36. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
37. Post violating site guidelines related to commercial posting by non site supporting vendor removed.
38. Thread violating site guidelines related to commercial posting by non site supporting vendor removed.
June 23rd
39. Post edited for formatting issues
June 22nd
40. Thread removed for violation of site guidelines related to posting about street racing
41. Thead moved to Interior/Exterior from MINI Talk
June 21st
42. Thead moved to Mid-Atlantic
43. Threads merged
44. Thread with multiple site guidelins violations and personal attacks removed
45. Theads merged
June 20th
46. Thread title edited for better display on Pulse
47. Thread moved to Off Topic Autos
48. Thread moved to detailing forum
49. "Test" Thread posted in wrong forum deleted after user indicated test was over
June 19th
50. Threads merged
51. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
52. Thread moved to Off Topic
June 17th
53. Double posted thread deleted
54. thread moved to National Events
55. Post violating site guidelines related to commercial posting by non site supporting vendor removed.
June 16th
56. Thread title edited
57. Thread moved to Off Topic
58. Thread moved to West Coast Coopers club forum after forum was built out.
June 15th
59. Threads merged
60. Thread moved to Off Topic Autos
61. Thread moved to Site Feedback
62. Thread title edited
63. Thread moved to Site Feedback
64. Thread moved to SoCal
65. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
66. Thread moved to Beneath the Bonnet
June 14th
67. Thread title edited
That takes us back through the past three weeks of activity where moderators logged activity in threads. During that same time three accounts were removed or merged as a result of users creating duplicate accounts on the site. Additionally, approximately 15 members were contacted regarding the size of their signature image being larger than the site guidelines permitted.
I'll post more later, but that is the history log of the past three weeks.
Last edited by dave; Jul 5, 2005 at 04:21 PM.
North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
Given that my intentions relative to the site have come into question again I thought I would take a few minutes and try to address some of the concerns that Greatbear and others have brought up.
For the past two and a half years I have worked full-time on NAM (50-60 hours per week). As part of that I had to find a way to support my wife and children while also paying the costs associated with running a site such as this. In other words I had to figure out a way to make it a paying job. I've been lucky and am thankful that I've been able to mix a job with things I enjoy...software development, marketing, business development, and the MINI. As with each of your jobs you have found a way to support your families and lifestyles. This is the path I have chosen.
As for commercial efforts I have to say that all the vendors on the site were ones that approached the site first relative to advertising. To date I have spent 0 minutes actively going out, identifying possible businesses, and approaching them about advertising. If a business has come to the site and posted without observing the site rules regarding vendors I've contacted them. Many of them have elected to join the site and several have not. The number we get approached with changes depending on the time of year. For example, right now there are probably four different new companies interested in moving forward with advertising.
One thing to note relative to vendors is that we've tried to be very consistent with our approach to them. If someone comes and advertises without an agreement we contact them immediately as we want to insure they are on the same footing, agreement-wise, as the vendors that have supported NAM and the community to date.
Now...on to what we haven't been consistent on.....
I'm the first to admit we've had problems in providing a consistent approach to moderation. Part of that has been do to my interest in giving people as much rope as possible, a number of chances to change their behavior, and generally feeling that the entire community can take information, viewpoints, etc. and integrate it into their thinking without getting offended. Additionally, I underestimated the delicate balance between managing vendor and member discussions (ie - battles). During this time we jumped around a lot on how we dealt with them and I'm sure appeared inconsistent to the general population on the site. That said, there are cases where what the population saw relative to certain users was very different than what we saw. There were several cases where users, regardless of our best efforts to give them multiple chances to abide by the guidelines, continued to abuse the site and were therefore removed.
The new rule you see are a result of these issues. In them I had several goals: simplify, make them more direct, state expectations in how vendors and members interact, to what extent we'll moderate, and outline penalties. I also recast these as rules rather than guidelines because guidelines sounds like "nice to haves" while rules set a clearer expectation. Going forward, as before, I would prefer not to moderate/edit posts but at times we must intervene based on the rules and it may not always be apparent, on the surface, what has transpired so please understand that we are doing our best to keep NAM to a slow boil :smile:. The bottom line is if users want to utilize NAM they need to abide by the rules we've laid out.
I've been aware of this thread for some time and I have purposely not responded because I wanted to see what people had to say. Additionally, during the summer my wife works so, rather than finding some type of child care for our children, I travel with my kids a fair amount. Even though wireless connections are everywhere, it still can be a couple of days before I can connect, get my thoughts together, and have a shot at making a intelligent response. That said, I felt it was time to chime in and provide my view of the issues that have been brought up.
Its really pretty simple. I've set forward a revised set of rules (created with member feebdack) that I expect everyone on the site to operate by. T here is nothing in them that are significantly different that what other automotive sites on the net use. If they do that this will continue to evolve into a great site and something that I'm interested in putting my time and energy into. In the past year since we first upgraded the site there have been a lot of efforts put forward to support the community: gallery and review systems integrated, club forums and free club web site hosting, development of the 2005 MINIs on the Dragon area of NAM along with support of the event, etc. This fall I have several new things planned...it just takes time to get them in place. Also, I'm a big believer in open source efforts when it comes to information. My goal has always been to create a platform for content related to the MINI...I have always looked to all owners and enthusiasts to contribute.
In closing I want to insure you that the changes made to the site rules was to make it more clear on our expectations while also distancing ourselves for the inevitable member/vendor battles. If a vendor makes a claim then we expect them to back it up and address questions. That said if we see someone violating the site rules we'll give them a warning and if they continue they will be removed from the site (yes...even vendors).
I know I haven't always made the right decisions but I can say that I have learned from them and am trying to improve the site going forward. Hopefully, members like yourself, will also continue to contribute and make the site a great one for the MINI.
Sincerely,
Mark Ferguson
Founder (and owner) - North American Motoring
Originally Posted by Greatbear
Over time, I feel that commercial interests have taken precedence over community building. Granted, Mr. Fergusen needs a means to keep the lights on and have a place for the aforementioned community to gather and grow. But in recent times the emphasis has been almost solely in the commercial realm.
As for commercial efforts I have to say that all the vendors on the site were ones that approached the site first relative to advertising. To date I have spent 0 minutes actively going out, identifying possible businesses, and approaching them about advertising. If a business has come to the site and posted without observing the site rules regarding vendors I've contacted them. Many of them have elected to join the site and several have not. The number we get approached with changes depending on the time of year. For example, right now there are probably four different new companies interested in moving forward with advertising.
One thing to note relative to vendors is that we've tried to be very consistent with our approach to them. If someone comes and advertises without an agreement we contact them immediately as we want to insure they are on the same footing, agreement-wise, as the vendors that have supported NAM and the community to date.
Now...on to what we haven't been consistent on.....
Originally Posted by Greatbear
The moderation also has become more heavy-handed and capricious recently. The rewrite of the guidelines bears some of this out. What were once 'guidelines' are now 'rules'. Inflexibility is in. the banning of certain members results in all of their posts being deleted. Solid, thoughtful contributions are vanishing from the threads, making what remains disconnected and sometimes unreadable. Some moderators are acting on personal rather than community needs in the editing and removal of posts. There is also an appearance of conflict of interest at times.
The new rule you see are a result of these issues. In them I had several goals: simplify, make them more direct, state expectations in how vendors and members interact, to what extent we'll moderate, and outline penalties. I also recast these as rules rather than guidelines because guidelines sounds like "nice to haves" while rules set a clearer expectation. Going forward, as before, I would prefer not to moderate/edit posts but at times we must intervene based on the rules and it may not always be apparent, on the surface, what has transpired so please understand that we are doing our best to keep NAM to a slow boil :smile:. The bottom line is if users want to utilize NAM they need to abide by the rules we've laid out.
Originally Posted by Greatbear
Some posters have simply resorted to complaints rather than using the tools available to them to get the content they want. Some complain about fluff posts and signature graphics 'getting in the way' of 'real' content. Fluff posts are a fact of life in a community site that contains off-topic forums. People come here looking for staid information will find it, but that does not make people hang around. This site is like your television set. There are many channels with the programming you want, and no one is forcing you to read the stuff that does not interest you. Dont like signature graphics? Go into your user control panel and shut 'em off. Use the Pulse to get the latest auto-related content or pull up your topic of choice and refresh it periodically to see the latest content in that area. It's simple. Problem is, this gives people one less thing they would be wanting to complain about.
A few more words about advertising and community involvement. Of all the mods I added to my car, not one single product or service was selected based on an advertisement, either here or elsewhere. It was the community's word of mouth recommendations and independent voice that helped me decide what is best for my car. Hell, I bought the car itself based on other's opinions and technical insights and assurances, not from any ads.
I too find it interesting (as well as sad) that none of the site owners have bothered to comment in this thread. It may be more convenient to head for the 'delete thread' button in their admin panels than it is to respond to some queries and concerns, but in the past, I have been mostly pleased with the fairness most issues have received. More moderators are needed, as having a varied collection of them contributes to a greater pool of opinions that might not run afoul of personal feelings of only a few. In other words, less tyranny at the top.
A few more words about advertising and community involvement. Of all the mods I added to my car, not one single product or service was selected based on an advertisement, either here or elsewhere. It was the community's word of mouth recommendations and independent voice that helped me decide what is best for my car. Hell, I bought the car itself based on other's opinions and technical insights and assurances, not from any ads.
I too find it interesting (as well as sad) that none of the site owners have bothered to comment in this thread. It may be more convenient to head for the 'delete thread' button in their admin panels than it is to respond to some queries and concerns, but in the past, I have been mostly pleased with the fairness most issues have received. More moderators are needed, as having a varied collection of them contributes to a greater pool of opinions that might not run afoul of personal feelings of only a few. In other words, less tyranny at the top.
Originally Posted by Greatbear
NAM may have become boring, but there is still some potential to save it
before it's too late. Continue to reach out at the community level to the folks that have made this site what it is. Do whatever is necessary to keep the technically savvy folks from jumping ship. In a bit over a year, everything we know here will be completely turned on it's head as the '07 MINIs come out. Every single mod part and idea that we have come to know will no longer apply. Without knowledgeable people like Randy, et al on the forefront working WITH the MINI owners to develop the goodies we have all come to know (and basically taken for granted lately), we'll be stuck groping about blindly trying to make our rides as unique as every person here on the boards. That 15% pulley that you poo-poo about showing up in repeated threads will only be a paperweight in the future.
My posting here has lessened over the last year as scrutiny of mod effectiveness and innovation has taken a back seat to protecting vendors and thoughtful discussion in on- and off-topic forums has become more censored and neutered. I'm beginning to find the information as well as areas of discussion elsewhere, but I continue to peek in on NAM and help out where I can. I miss the input from those who have taken the MINI to the limits and beyond who no longer post due to the increasingly restrictive atmosphere or who have been summarily vaporized along with their past, valid contributions. The people running NAM need to seriously rethink some of their actions in this regard before this site become gutted of any real content and just becomes a clearinghouse for advertisers with little community involvement.
before it's too late. Continue to reach out at the community level to the folks that have made this site what it is. Do whatever is necessary to keep the technically savvy folks from jumping ship. In a bit over a year, everything we know here will be completely turned on it's head as the '07 MINIs come out. Every single mod part and idea that we have come to know will no longer apply. Without knowledgeable people like Randy, et al on the forefront working WITH the MINI owners to develop the goodies we have all come to know (and basically taken for granted lately), we'll be stuck groping about blindly trying to make our rides as unique as every person here on the boards. That 15% pulley that you poo-poo about showing up in repeated threads will only be a paperweight in the future.
My posting here has lessened over the last year as scrutiny of mod effectiveness and innovation has taken a back seat to protecting vendors and thoughtful discussion in on- and off-topic forums has become more censored and neutered. I'm beginning to find the information as well as areas of discussion elsewhere, but I continue to peek in on NAM and help out where I can. I miss the input from those who have taken the MINI to the limits and beyond who no longer post due to the increasingly restrictive atmosphere or who have been summarily vaporized along with their past, valid contributions. The people running NAM need to seriously rethink some of their actions in this regard before this site become gutted of any real content and just becomes a clearinghouse for advertisers with little community involvement.
In closing I want to insure you that the changes made to the site rules was to make it more clear on our expectations while also distancing ourselves for the inevitable member/vendor battles. If a vendor makes a claim then we expect them to back it up and address questions. That said if we see someone violating the site rules we'll give them a warning and if they continue they will be removed from the site (yes...even vendors).
I know I haven't always made the right decisions but I can say that I have learned from them and am trying to improve the site going forward. Hopefully, members like yourself, will also continue to contribute and make the site a great one for the MINI.
Sincerely,
Mark Ferguson
Founder (and owner) - North American Motoring
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 38,578
Likes: 2
Well I have a notoriously low threshold for boredom (very easily entertained), so no, NAM doesn't bore me at all. There are peaks and valleys, of course...but this is a living community, responsive to news, calendar events, sleeping disorders, weddings, newbies, classic owners, impulse wheel purchases, clubs...and the list goes on and on. Someone brought up how we fare towards other sites. Here's my take:
NAM is wildly dynamic. Thanks largely to the Pulse, and a very large national (even international) membership, this place changes from minute to minute. There are other sites around that move at a snail's pace by comparison. I've never seen so much variety and wild topic swings than I see here on NAM. Insane!!! Even better that it's easy to keep up with moment by moment.
Posting largely presupposes national readership. People here tend to explain things as they post, which I like. Why not...many of us have never met. Why would I know someone has two kids or that another lives in a cold climate. These detail make a difference sometimes and I usually find people here are good at filling in the gaps. With other sites I've been on, especially w/ local clubs, threads frequently start out on-topic but then the banter starts, and the jabbing, and the kidding, and soon, unless you're in on the joke, you are out of it. Why? Because the owners know each other and can kid at that level. No problem, but I like the approach found here. Posts tend to stand on their own merit, so to find out what's going on, one simply needs to scroll up a bit...not wade through pages to find the script.
Highly eclectic audience. I know it's tough to wade through sometimes, but I'd love to be able to protect the diversity found here...I think it's important for the growth of MINI culture overall. New owners, hard-core tuners, artists, engineers, seasoned hippies, bad-a** punks, girly-girls, auto enthusiasts....even Democrats!!! Hey we all are attracted to, drive, and love the same car!!! How cool is that!!! We just have to follow the rules, that's all, to stay engaged. Ain't that hard, imo. I really enjoy the regional differences, too.
Surprises. I'll name a few...MCC (the latest...out of nowhere:smile: ), awesome Monthly Photo Contest, WTF, assorted word games, Talk Like a Pirate Day, Pimp My Ride, F1 thread, music threads, and of course, Pop Tarts....you can probably add more, but these are the one's that pop to mind. I don't think, again given the national level of talent on NAM, you'll find so many weirdos and weird topics in one place, bundled in with highly relevant MINI information....good stuff!!!
Well, those are a few of the reasons why I personally find NAM not boring. In the end, when I'm not connecting w/ NAM for some reason (yes, despite my enthusiasm it happens) I think to myself, "well, you start something then." If I can't think of anything...oh well...it's on me...not on NAM. And by way of my own personal stance on things, I really think the mods do a wonderful job!!!
NAM is wildly dynamic. Thanks largely to the Pulse, and a very large national (even international) membership, this place changes from minute to minute. There are other sites around that move at a snail's pace by comparison. I've never seen so much variety and wild topic swings than I see here on NAM. Insane!!! Even better that it's easy to keep up with moment by moment.
Posting largely presupposes national readership. People here tend to explain things as they post, which I like. Why not...many of us have never met. Why would I know someone has two kids or that another lives in a cold climate. These detail make a difference sometimes and I usually find people here are good at filling in the gaps. With other sites I've been on, especially w/ local clubs, threads frequently start out on-topic but then the banter starts, and the jabbing, and the kidding, and soon, unless you're in on the joke, you are out of it. Why? Because the owners know each other and can kid at that level. No problem, but I like the approach found here. Posts tend to stand on their own merit, so to find out what's going on, one simply needs to scroll up a bit...not wade through pages to find the script.
Highly eclectic audience. I know it's tough to wade through sometimes, but I'd love to be able to protect the diversity found here...I think it's important for the growth of MINI culture overall. New owners, hard-core tuners, artists, engineers, seasoned hippies, bad-a** punks, girly-girls, auto enthusiasts....even Democrats!!! Hey we all are attracted to, drive, and love the same car!!! How cool is that!!! We just have to follow the rules, that's all, to stay engaged. Ain't that hard, imo. I really enjoy the regional differences, too.
Surprises. I'll name a few...MCC (the latest...out of nowhere:smile: ), awesome Monthly Photo Contest, WTF, assorted word games, Talk Like a Pirate Day, Pimp My Ride, F1 thread, music threads, and of course, Pop Tarts....you can probably add more, but these are the one's that pop to mind. I don't think, again given the national level of talent on NAM, you'll find so many weirdos and weird topics in one place, bundled in with highly relevant MINI information....good stuff!!!
Well, those are a few of the reasons why I personally find NAM not boring. In the end, when I'm not connecting w/ NAM for some reason (yes, despite my enthusiasm it happens) I think to myself, "well, you start something then." If I can't think of anything...oh well...it's on me...not on NAM. And by way of my own personal stance on things, I really think the mods do a wonderful job!!!
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
I'd like to see all the rogues re-instated; let 'em have at it. Let the moderators simply bleep out the name calling and cussin'.
Why should the moderators care about moderating other than this?
Ignore vendor complaints; they are paying to advertise, which they do, not for a flame barrier.
Why should the moderators care about moderating other than this?
Ignore vendor complaints; they are paying to advertise, which they do, not for a flame barrier.
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Absolutely!
Originally Posted by jlm
I'd like to see all the rogues re-instated; let 'em have at it. Let the moderators simply bleep out the name calling and cussin'.
Why should the moderators care about moderating other than this?
Ignore vendor complaints; they are paying to advertise, which they do, not for a flame barrier.
Why should the moderators care about moderating other than this?
Ignore vendor complaints; they are paying to advertise, which they do, not for a flame barrier.
Originally Posted by jlm
I'd like to see all the rogues re-instated; let 'em have at it. Let the moderators simply bleep out the name calling and cussin'.
Why should the moderators care about moderating other than this?
Ignore vendor complaints; they are paying to advertise, which they do, not for a flame barrier.
Why should the moderators care about moderating other than this?
Ignore vendor complaints; they are paying to advertise, which they do, not for a flame barrier.
Moderator :: Performance Mods
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,427
Likes: 6
From: A Den in Maryland
Mark, thanks very much for the thoughtful responses. Let me make it perfectly clear (pardon the Nixon (pardon the double pun)) that I in no way, shape or form want to interfere with your work with NAM and your making a livelihood from your efforts here. I would like to think that anyone who has been around these parts for a while, especially from the MCO days knows how much work you have put into this place since the earlest days. I certainly appreciate it. The reason for my rather long winded diatribe was to help you remain aware of the community that makes up NAM today. It's easy being a builder to lose sight of the people living in the house, so to speak. Yeah, there will be issues from time to time, that is unavoidable. The grassroots involvement of people with this funny little car grew into some experienced voices and notable vendors and manufacturers thanks in part to this little corner of the web. For this I am very grateful.
Mark, please continue the good work you have been doing here. I'll still involve myself with the people here as well as the wonderful bunch of new friends I have made over the years here. Just remember that we are a very diverse bunch sometimes prone to drama and silliness. These facts will no doubt continue to show themselves in the variety of threads here. Listen to your community. It wants the best for all involved here, especially you.
Mark, please continue the good work you have been doing here. I'll still involve myself with the people here as well as the wonderful bunch of new friends I have made over the years here. Just remember that we are a very diverse bunch sometimes prone to drama and silliness. These facts will no doubt continue to show themselves in the variety of threads here. Listen to your community. It wants the best for all involved here, especially you.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,522
Likes: 7
From: San Diego, CA
Search Tip
Originally Posted by blalor
The vBulletin search (and vBulletin as a whole, in my opinion) sucks rocks. I just can't understand the popularity of that (this. ugh.) software, given how difficult it is to find information via search.
...
Every time I'm told to "go search" and can't force the search field to do searches for phrases or include ALL words, instead of ANY word.</rant>
...
Every time I'm told to "go search" and can't force the search field to do searches for phrases or include ALL words, instead of ANY word.</rant>
For instance, if you search for Glove Box Organizer on NAM you'll get posts containing any of those three words, and you'll never find what you need. But type this into Google:
site:northamericanmotoring.com "glove box organizer"
and you'll get a list of pages on NAM with that exact phrase. Admittedly not as handy as using the search on NAM, but could be helpful down the road.
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,802
Likes: 0
From: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted by jlm
Let the moderators simply bleep out the name calling and cussin'.
Maybe a mod or two would take it on if the offenders had to pay for every breach, like a dollar jar for cursing
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,300
Likes: 0
From: Madison, Wisconsin
"I'd like to see all the rogues re-instated; let 'em have at it."
Well, where do you draw the line. If you allow name calling and general disrespect to be posted between members you effectively limit the knowledge being presented here. No one wants to post an opinion knowing you'll be called a moron or somesuch just for posting. It follows then that many people will quit posting altogether, even when they may have valuable information to share.
Frankly, while I love my MINI, if the MINI was the only topic of interest on this forum I probably would never have joined. JDS summoned it up very nicely for myself and others I expect. I do bemoan the no politics rule (I wasn't a member during the controversy leading to the ban), I have strong opinions concerning the present political climate and thus find it stifling and sometimes frustrating to not be able to voice them. Had I been present I hope I wouldn't have been disrespectful, but I can't guarantee that without seeing the posts. Which leads me to wonder, why do whole threads need to be removed? Maybe it would be beneficial to simply lock them down and still allow them to be viewed, minus the truly offensive parts of course. I think there might be less of the feeling of censorship if that were done.
As far as the so called "useless" threads such as MINI names etc.. What is the problem. If you don't want to participate in those threads, then don't. It's as simple as that!
Well, where do you draw the line. If you allow name calling and general disrespect to be posted between members you effectively limit the knowledge being presented here. No one wants to post an opinion knowing you'll be called a moron or somesuch just for posting. It follows then that many people will quit posting altogether, even when they may have valuable information to share.
Frankly, while I love my MINI, if the MINI was the only topic of interest on this forum I probably would never have joined. JDS summoned it up very nicely for myself and others I expect. I do bemoan the no politics rule (I wasn't a member during the controversy leading to the ban), I have strong opinions concerning the present political climate and thus find it stifling and sometimes frustrating to not be able to voice them. Had I been present I hope I wouldn't have been disrespectful, but I can't guarantee that without seeing the posts. Which leads me to wonder, why do whole threads need to be removed? Maybe it would be beneficial to simply lock them down and still allow them to be viewed, minus the truly offensive parts of course. I think there might be less of the feeling of censorship if that were done.
As far as the so called "useless" threads such as MINI names etc.. What is the problem. If you don't want to participate in those threads, then don't. It's as simple as that!
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,406
Likes: 0
From: Northeast Ohio
Originally Posted by eVal
Maybe a mod or two would take it on if the offenders had to pay for every breach, like a dollar jar for cursing