Thanks, RAN. For me, abuse from strangers can never be personal. They don't know me so how can they hurt me? Just give them a big smile and walk on. :smile: Or type on...

Steve

 

The thing is, even if the veteran NAM user turns the other check or grows a thick skin to such abuse, it still creates a hostile environment. New users aren't going to be inclined to take part let alone join if they feel that they are going to catch heat just for participating...

Not only that but eventually the insults and flames begin overwhelm the actual discussion. That started to happen in OTP and does happen in a lot of Usenet Newsgroups... It's a self-destroying spiral, eventually the flames increase to a level that the only traffic on the board is members flaming each other....

 

Constructive criticism is helpful. It can help you learn and grow.
Abuse does nothing but either make you angry, sad, or in some cases afraid.

 

But where's the line between the two? That's why you need to be resilient in case someone is a little too aggressive. My earlier comment:

We shouldn't have to go to the lowest common denominator or NAM will really be boring.

Steve

 

If I do something wrong, and someone says thats not right, do it this way. That's constructive criticism.
If I do something wrong and someone says, hey idiot, do it right. Well IMOP thats abuse.

If I have an opinion on something, and someone else has another, well thats fine, we can share our thoughts, and at least agree to disagree.
If I have an opinion on something, and someone says I'm stupid for thinking that way, well, thats rude.

Like you I tend to move on when confronted by this kind of thing, and I worry that this kind of thing will make folks move on from NAM.

And I've yet to read how being abusive or rude adds to any discusion.

 

I think the mods have to decide where that line is (between criticism and abuse) and they do so dynamically...considering context, topic, post history, etc...and then apparently extend multiple warnings to transgressors. Ya have to be pretty blatant to get booted off NAM, seems to me. We all just have to know there's a line, find it if we must, but then stay within it. It ain't that hard. This is about basic civility...not disagreeing. If some poster has a problem w/ basic civility (based on NAM's criteria, which are pretty common sense) and continues to push...yeah, they'll see consequences. It is they who need make modifications, not NAM policy, not NAM moderators, not the NAM community. There's an entire gray area that you have to shoot clear through to be booted off NAM. In fact, I'd say if there's a need for thicker skin, then those who get their hand slapped are the ones who need it. If posts disappear...if you're tagged for breaking one of the site rules (intentional or unintentional), yeah it'll sting a bit...but stop whining all over the place and move on. It's not the end of the world...or at least it doesn't have to be. If someone tries at least, that counts for a lot.

I don't know who the posters are that we miss so much because I haven't probably been part of those discussions. I wish them well. I can only assume that they must have pushed pretty hard to get kicked off the site. I will agree certain topics by their nature will naturally require some level of debate. Fine, go for it, say your bit...but I think we all can sense when a topic is headed for trouble. If warnings are issued they'd best be heeded.

We all need to recalibrate our boredometers...in my opinion, you can get pretty spirited w/o crossing the line. Yes, perhaps it's an art to do so, but it is definitely one worth learning for many, many reasons beyond the scope of NAM.

 

Well said jds

 

A well thought out response jds, I like.

And now for one not so well thought out but I'm going to proffer it anyway. Back to the political thing. I guess the ban bugs me most because its another example of the many paying a price for the transgressions of the few. This happens all the time of course, for example: At work one person out of 30 can't seem to make it on time in the morning. Do we repremand that employee and impose progressive discipline? No, we install a time clock, and make everyone punch it!

On NAM the equivalent action is to ban all political content. Again, I wasn't a member when this went down and so I may be talking out my a** here, but why ban the topic? It isn't about MINI's but nothing in off-topic is so that can't be the reason. Still with all the trouble in performance threads recently, performance threads weren't banned, just individuals were banned, and minor rule strengthening took place. I don't understand the different way these 2 problems were addressed.

A couple more thoughts. Is it possible to program out (ban) individuals from responding in certain categories or even threads? If so, it would seem that a strictly political area could be set up inside off-topic. This area could contain multiple threads (all politically oriented) and would be the only place on NAM that politics could prevail. All existing rules would be in force, and those who couldn't post within the rules would be banned from the topic. In this scenario, someone who wanted to make a political statement in a non-political thread would then start a thread in the polical forum and post away (within the rules of decency of course). Granted, this would be more work for the moderators, but a lot of the stifling feeling prevalent here could be soothed.

 

Well, Ran...we DID have just such a forum with Off Topic :: Politics. Leading up to last fall's presidential election, things got VERY heated, and most certainly political differences WERE carried into the non-political forums. The insults, mocking, and accusations were flying.

I was pretty bummed, as OTP was my baby. But after seeing how unsporting many of the political debates became, I had to very sadly acknowledge that OTP was dragging down the tone and vibe of NAM. And it really was due to a few individuals who refused to follow the guidelines, at least one of which was permanently banned. The work involved for we volunteer Moderators was really over the top. It just became impossible to referee!

Hope that helps....


Clover

 

Thanks Clo. I had gathered that is what happened from other posts and I don't doubt it got pretty heated. I brought it up because I had hoped that there might be some way to make it work. I don't know about you, but its really hard for me to bite my tongue sometimes given the present state of the world.

I certainly don't blame you for not wanting to deal with that kind of nastiness. I know I wouldn't.:smile:

 

FWIW, when Off Topic :: Politics was part of the site that one forum was consuming probably 50-75% of the moderation activity on the entire site (depending on the day/week). Posts regarding the site guidelines were made in that forum routinely, to the point where they had no effect.

We removed certain individuals from the forum, and the problems continued. We then closed the forum temporarily (for about a week as I recall), removed all of the threads to get a fresh start and a new chance. We made it very clear that in order for OTP to continue on the site we were looking for a material change in the level of respect for other forum members with opposing view points and that the site guidelines needed to be adhered to by all members in all forums on the site.

The day after we re-opened OTP, one member (Trippy) somehow convinced himself that the fresh start in OTP would be helped by posting a caricature of a child on his knees being victimized by a pedophile priest. As a result, he was blocked from viewing or participating in OTP and due to that lack of judgment on his part, from that point forward his posts required moderator approval prior to posting. Even though we had said prior to re-opening OTP that such a violation would result in the permanent closure of the forum, we decided not to close OTP at that time due to the actions of that one member. OTP was eventually closed a few days later after other guideline violations appeared.

 

Well, that fills in the blanks quite well. Thanks DiD.

 

Yes, Dave. There was a one-week cool-down period, after which certain individuals came back FLAMING away! It was a hugely disappointing situation and that is when Mark determined it wasn't worth it to spend 50-75% of all moderating there.


Clover

 

It's apparently only a matter of time before DiD locks and/or deletes every amusing thread on this site. So much for the good ole days of MCO [pre heavy handed administration] Such strict censorship is the primary reason I have little interest in visiting here much anymore. Does Mark even own this site anymore?

 

Ryan:

Regarding the most recently locked thread: The site guidelines have prohibited street racing discussions for more than two years. Of course, you already knew that though since you were a moderator.

Dave

 

Ryephile, this is funny coming from you ... you used to be worse than the current admins. I'll always remember you as the ****** that removed an old thread of mine just because I was looking for BRG Coopers, and you left it with a note that said, and I quote : "Segregation is not part of our equation." .

 

I can only guess that there was an organizational or redundancy reason for whatever moderation I did in the past. That said, my personal views weren't relevant while moderating, the Site Guidelines, however inappropriate or misplaced they were [or are, for that matter].


...and now for another installment of DiD throwing snippy attitude!

 

Holy crap!


What has Mini Cooper Online become??!!!

I like both of you guys, and here you are, both enthusiasts, not getting along.

Remember when there were only a hundred or so folks, and we all actually got along? Someone could post without fear of being trashed, and real info was easily attainable by just asking? No political agendas, no vendor politics, just enthusiasts for the MINI sharing there love of the game.

Can't we all just get along!

Randy

 

Ryan, I think you need to lose your own attitude. This is just depressing and lame. Go hang out on MightyMiniz.com (or whatever the name is) if you think NAM is so oppressive. I echo Randy's sentiments; I still love this site and visit most every day, but it's just baffling to see such consistent vitriol on the part of a small group of vendors and posters that seem intent on killing the atmosphere around here. So we can't discuss criminal street racing; oh cry me a freaking river. What else can there possibly be to talk about, anyway?!

 

I say again... "Why can't we all just... get along?" - Jack Nicholson, Mars Attacks

 

I so miss those days. I was lurking then, and it pushed my desire to have one of these cars more than anything else. I got the car and joined 'officially'. I tried to give to the community as much as it gave me. These days I feel that those running the show dont appreciate the contributions (beyond financially) that the community gives, and I myself offered to do more on several occasions (I asked if Mark could use more mod help and offered my time and expertise) but was greeted by strict silence each time. I know when to take a hint. I miss those good old days too. Sadly, I don't see them ever returning with the status quo being like it is.

 

i have 0 posts on mini2. that place sucks. NAM is the best.

 

I joined both sites at about the same time.

MINI2, 0 posts. NAM, well lots

 

I wish i knew about this site when i first got into minis in 03 ish... i frequented mini2.com just to look at the new news all the time. Then school made the mistake of giving us all our own laptops :P

I first heard about this site after Deb (nekowoman) came back from the dragon with the cartoon mini with family shirt for me, and it said north american motoring on it All i had to do was cat-sit haha.

 

MINI2.com is a great site. Lots of "gringos" post there and some of then I have never seen here in NAM.

I think they have better off topic conversations there.


I like the international/European flavor of the site. It gives a refreshing perspective for sure.