Any thoughts on using F20 - 7A - 30G_F - X11008 13 0.75 RT/GE Outside mirror fold-in for amp turn-on? I need to turn on a Q 450.4 - Image Dynamics 4-Channel 450 Watt Amplifier and a Boss Audio Bass600.

I posted a similar question in the electric mods forum and only got one response. Pilotart suggested connecting a light bulb to see what the on/off timing was. However, that would require replacing panels and re-installing seats before I'd like to (assuming that seats must be plugged in to aviod error codes).

I don't have power fold mirrors, but there is a 7.5 amp fuse installed. So, seems like a good candidate.

Does anyone understand the on/off timing for 30G_F?

Any idea how much power an amp turn-on circuit typically requires? The manual for the Q 450.4 just says that it needs to see 12V.

Thanks.

 

depending on the design can be from less than a milliamp to about 100 milliamps (driving a relay)....

From my limited reading I don't know if the 30G is the way to go, seems to turn on with lots of stuff (like opening the door). But then I don't know if you have a lot of choices.

Back when I didn't have grey hair we'd run these off of the power antenna output on the head unit. But now I have no clue about how all this stuff hooks together in the newest Minis....

Matt

 

Robin,

Here is the post on the Terminals:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...not-fuses.html

Now with that said. Another explanation of the is as follows:

Terminal 30 - Always ON (connected to battery +)

Terminal R or 15 - Go on and off with the car access system

Terminal 30G - Time circuit that will come on when the car access system is activated by the fob or door lock. Will go off after approximate 15-60 minutes after last activity of the car access system or the car is turned off. Timing depends on state of bluetooth longer if bluetooth connection is active.

Terminal 30G_F -

Turn off conditions:

• Reception of the message ”Signal off”.
  After 5 minutes, relay terminal 30g-f is switched off. (caused by a bad electronic module)
• The battery status is continuously read out and evaluated in the engine control module. If the starting capability of the vehicle battery is insufficient, the relay is also switched off. (low battery or high current draw on battery while vehicle is in the off condition)
• Data interchange on the buses for 10 minutes after deactivation of terminal 30g without a switch-on condition. (all electronics modules have gone to sleep)
• Vehicle is 'wakened' 20 times after deactivation of terminal 30g without a switch-on condition. (i.e. car door is opened 20 times without being started.)

Switch-on conditions:
When the relay terminal 30g-f is switched off, it can only by switched on again with defined conditions required for switch-on.
Conditions required for switch-on for relay terminal 30g-f:

• Unlock vehicle
• Opening the luggage compartment lid / bonnet or door
• Switching on terminal R

If you have any more questions or do not understand part of the above let me know and i will try to explain it in another way.

BTW I would not suggest using F20 it can stay on way to long and cause your battery to drain. Not that the amp on line draws much current itself but if it is left on for a long period the amps will also be ON.

Edit: there is an amp on line at the back of the radio. I am not sure right now which pin it is but i know newministuff.com has the answer. e-mail them and they will probably tell you which pin it is.

 

I know about that thread. If you look at the last post, it is mine. That's where I only received one response.

Read that, and it seemed good, but perhaps I need it explained differently.

Does this turn off at the same time as the radio, or a different time? Does it turn on if you just walk by the car with the fob?

I'd rather not tear the dash apart to get to the back of the radio.

Any suggestions for a fuse to use? I could tie it into the cig lighter, but there are two reasons I've shied away from that.

1. I'm using non-runflat tires. If I get a flat, I'll need the cig circuit to power a Slime compressor. Perhaps that isn't an issue if the amp-on circuits draw only a tiny amount.

2. It is only on when the engine is running. So, no listening while waiting for someone. Perhaps running the audio with the engine off is a bad idea with an aftermarket amp?

 

Thanks. Sounds like the draw isn't worth worrying about.

30G and 30G_F seem to have some differences.

Power antenna, on a MINI? Don't think 2nd Gens have that option.

 

BTW, what is: F29 5A 15 X11001 7 0.5 SW/GR/GE Telephone?
Is that Bluetooth, or some European option we don't get on this side of the pond?

 

Don't think any panels would need installed, but the under-seat plugs MUST be connected to avoid that AirBag! warning that Dealer has to reset. You could just set the seats in place for connecting the plugs, while you timed the 30G_F Terminal Circuit.

As schatzy62 said, a 450 Watt Amplifier that remained on for more than a few minutes after engine (alternator) is off could cause a battery problem. The hope was that the 30G_F would shut down within 5 minutes, or when it detected reducing battery voltage, just the High Draw of that Amplifier might turn it off immediately.
You might want one of those tiny, quiet Honda Portable Power units alongside the slime unit for your 'tailgate parties' anyway. Does an Audio Amplifier vary its current draw with the Load? (450 Watts is 37.5 Amps @ 12 Volts)

If you have no need to have the amp on while the engine is off, just use a Terminal R or 15 circuit, as they (like your cigarette liter plug) instantly turn off with engine shutdown. Getting power directly from the cig-liter wire would do the same and the "less than 100 miliamp" load would not hamper use of tire compressor.

(My last dead battery immediately followed use of portable compressor to top off airplane nose tire, so have engine run for that. As I mentioned in other thread, my battery had already been showing 11.6 Volt {discharged} before the incident and I think I left parking lights on (inside brightly lighted Hangar).

 

I was just referring back to the first two posts as that is where the most of the information comes from.

the actual info in the WDS is a lot longer this is the condensed version and thus may not explain things quite as well. That is why i added the parenthesis info.


NO. This fuse is controlled by the Terminal 30G_F Relay in the fuse block otherwise called the Junction Control Box. This circuit can actually stay on for very long periods of time in excess of 5 hours depending on the state of the other electronics in the car.


You have fuses that run on the Terminal 30, Terminal 30G and Terminal 30G_F. None of these are really good for use for amp turn on as they stay on for ever (30), 30-60 minutes (30G), and a very undetermined time (30G_F)

That will not make a difference the Amp On line draws so little current (100ma or .1 amps) that it will not affect the compressor pump. Those types of compressor pump only draw about 10-12 amps max and the lighter socket has a 20 amp fuse. SO no problem there.

Yes they only come on when the car is running. As for the amps being on and producing sound while the car is not running - YES they can be detrimental to the car starting again. Although the MINI does have a shut down circuit for the car if the battery voltage drops to low it does not save it from the amp being on for to long a period of time. I know i have had this happen to me where I was listening to the stereo for an extended period of time and then the car would not start. Measured teh battery voltage and it was down to about 10.1 VDC

IF you are to us any fuse make sure it is a 30G fuse.That is your least worry some fuse set to use.

I really would suggest finding a way to use the Amp On Line from the radio if possible. This is you best bet.

Correct on both statements

No MINI's do not have such an opption he was just saying that used to be a good sire to use as other cars in the old days had that but not an amp turn on line.

This is the bluetooh system. And you could use that but if you sit there with the engine running and a bluetooth phone in the car this circuit will stay active for 60 minutes, not a good thing for the draw on the battery. If there is not a bluetooth phone actively paired to the car this circuit will turn off after 15-30 minutes.

 

a lot goes into how much current an amp draws when not amplifying anything. Class A amps eat power even when quite, but most of the other types don't. So it may be a non-issue. But like I said, a lot goes into the power draw requirements.

Really, the right answer is to get to the amp turn on pin on the back of the head unit. That's what it's for and will be the best source. But if you don't want to get to it, then seems like there is no other option but one that has a lot of compramise.

Matt

 

Kudos to Off the top of my head, our small sealed, 'maintenance free' MINI Car Battery only has a maximum capacity of 30 or 35 Amp/Hours.

This means that a brand-new, fully charged battery would be dead as a stone before one hour of 37.5 Amp Draw, could you fit a second little "Deep-Cycle" in the boot?

Our Sealed Auto Battery is definately NOT a "Deep Cycle" , meaning that it does not like to be deeply discharged and has special requirements for charging as well. Although "sealed" it does have relief vents, which under continous high draw or charge can emit some of the electrolyte, never to be recovered.

schatzy62 is no doubt our Forum Expert when it comes to MINI's electric/electronic system and having your Amplifier turn on/off by the Radio control circuit is the best/safest method.

If you can't get to the back of the radio (I can understand that problem) then (one of these):Or your cigarette lighter power wire would be next best (on/off with ignition).
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

While I was composing this post, Matt had quickly added his knowledge in a post above mine, that I did not aknowledge I have long respected and appreciated his obvious expertise and now have been equally impressed by his FES-AUTO.com.

Robin, You are getting advice from the two 'best-there-are' on a subject that I have very limited experience (none with HiTech Audio and very limited with 'modern' automobile electric/electronic control)...

I'll stand on my battery paragraph and bow out on the rest to the true genius of schatzy62 & Dr Obnxs.

 

What, exactly, has to be removed to get to the back of the radio?

The Q 450.4 amp is an A/B class. I have no idea what class amp the Bass600 uses.

I guess the safest thing would be to stay with one that is only on when the engine is running. That isn't that big a hardship. I have Bluetooth, so F29 is out. Since the cig sockets are on 15 I thought all 15 circuits would turn off with the engine. I guess not.

I also have PDC, and I guess everyone has AUC. Any reason not to use one of them?

Using F42 20A 15 X11007 2 1.5 RT/SW/GE Cigar ligher, rear charging socket would be a problem because I haven't found an Add-A-Circuit tap that will handle 20 amps. I'd have to remove the shift console or rear panel to tap it properly. At this stage, the fewer panels I have to remove, the better.

Thanks.

 

and won't run tons of power at no output, but it will be some. how much really depends on lots of stuff and would either be found in the detailed technical liturature or from just measuring it.

Here's a pretty basic description of amplifier classes. It doesn't mention explicity that a real class A amp has a DC bias of 1/2 it's peak (maybe a bit less to avoid high voltage non-linearities) voltage output, and that's why it's a power hog. But there is absolutely NO crossover distortion so a lot of audiophiles love them (but like the author says, it's not a good architecture for a car amp.) his graphic of the cross over distortions in pure B class amps is right on the money, and the explanation of a D class amp is really good as well.

Matt

ps Pilotart, thanks for the kind words....

 

Robin,

I have spoken with a friend (mini tech) and he looked at the latest system diagrams for me. We have found that you may be able to pick up the Rad_On line (amp on line) at the X15 connector in the drivers side foot well. This is information that I do not have as my WDS is from last summer and the one he is looking at is the latest as of last august.

The X15 Connector is in the drivers foot well with near the X9331. You can see it in this picture from the latest WDS below. THE WDS states that Pin 1 is teh Rad_On line. The easiest way to check this would be to have the car off and measure the voltage on the pin and then turn the radio on by pressing the volume control know in to to run on the radio. This pin should go from 0 VDC (or very low voltage) to a higher voltage.

The WDS states that for the OEM amp to see it must go above 8VDC but hopefully it gos to the 12VDC voltage.

The wire color is marked as SW (German coding) and I was stupid and did not aks him what color that correlates to in English.





Please let us know if this is true. If it is it will help everyone trying to add an amp.

Good luck

 

Interesting. I appreciate the trouble you took to get that info.

SW is black, according to k6rtm's post. "Schwartz" if my memory of Blazing Saddles is correct.

That looks like the large black connector that piggybacks on the X9331. I don't see a clean way to tap that. There is a dense bundle of small wires coming out of it.

I think I'm going to be lazy and try F31 - 5A - 15 X11008 11 0.5 GN/RT AUC sensor. You all have convinced me that only having the amp on when the engine is running is the wisest thing to do.

 

stands for "schwartz" and is indeed black.

Matt

 

I thought that is what it is but did not want to state it with out being sure i was correct.

 

turns out that the addition of the Fiber Optic MOST bus isn't the only thing that Mini has been up to. There's a battery state supervisor that does lots of stuff that you don't even know about! It watches current draw during driving, during starting, during car off, and car off when all the systems are asleep. If current drain goes over 100 mA when all the systems should be asleep, it raises an alarm (how or where I have no clue). Anyway, I was reading about all this stuff for the next article I've written for MC Squared, and it's shocking (even to me) how much stuff they put into the car now!

What's funny, is all over the WDS there are all sorts of explanations that all this stuff is there to cut down on the number of times someone drains the battery (one of the largest contributors to a car not starting), and the end results is there are a lot more ways to drain the battery!

That's a bit tounge in cheek, but it's amazing what the car can figure out. I sure hope it's intelligent programming. I wonder how dropping in something like an Optima battery or one of the smaller SLAs screws with the systems....

Another off topic tidbit. I was looking at the car voltage when you start the car. Car off it was about 12.something. Starting dropped the voltage where I was measureing to about 7 something during cranking, and back up to 12.something after the car stars... Then it sits there and after 10 seconds or so slowly starts to rise up to 13 or 14, whatever charging voltage the alternator puts out. But it's not a sudden transition, it takes about 5-10 seconds! The computer is turning on the alternator slowly....

Anyway, on previous (less sophisticated) cars, the alternator would go full on as soon as high enough RPMs were achieved, and right after the car started you'd get the higher voltage out.....

Matt

 

I have written a number of posts on this specific item in the Electrical Section. There are a number of people over there wanting to put Extra grounding systems in the car. They say it evens out the power fluctuations and make the car run better. Well this can only cause more problems if the grounding system by passes the sensor on the negative terminal of the battery. BTW this sensor is not on all country specific vehicles, i.e. Japanese cars do not have it as standard item but then again they also do not get the High Equipment (Central Car Computer) that we get in North America unless they order it specifically and it is not on the options list for them. Other countries such as European countries get the option of having it or not having it.

But Yes is is very amazing what they are doing with cars these days.

 

Shouldn't you guys have made your scary posts on Halloween?

I've run a 4 gauge ground cable from the Q450.4 amp to the chassis under the rear seat location. Will that be a problem?

 

Turned out that this was a bad idea. It caused some sort of cross-connection with the audio and climate control. I think the only safe connection is to the cig lighter circuit. Unfortunately, it has a 20 amp fuse, and there are no Add-A-Circuit taps available for 20 amps. So, best to tap into it at the front or rear socket.

 

Any confirmed updates on this issue ?!??!?!?

 

There is a real amp signal available.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-on-found.html