Good read and it is nice to see that there is some definitive numbers coming. If we could have dropped 10 degrees much less 17 on our race car we would have been jumping thru hoops . I feel that this product falls under the category of it if looks rite it is rite and it certainly is both of those. I do find it curious that this big demand for " numbers " was never made from all the other old school IC's . Perhaps some of those owners could post up the documentation they relied on before they purchased those products. From what I can see here there is a mountain of info already posted in comparison to what is out there for the Alta, GRS and Forge etc. Maybe one word of advice , Don't be the last one on EBAY .

 

For better or worse...M7 has always been held to a higher standard by some...

What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger

 

Leave it to Upstate New Yorkers to post something funny.

 

That's just not true.

My Oh My what short memories we have


When you constantly brag that your stuff is better than anyone elses on the planet then yes you do get held to a different standard.
Self inflicted wounds I'd say.

 

It would seem as if this thread still has some legs left on it....

 

How does that old saying go, It ain't braggin if you can back it up? It appears that several knowledgable and respected mini owners have shown that this product does what it claims to do and that is reduce IAT lower than any other IC at this time. There will always be those that will continually drag their feet do to some personal agenda but the overwhelming positive responce will eventually ovecome that as well. Nicely thought out product , it's on my list.

 

No, they haven't.
The only data is from Matt and Tony.
Matt not overwhelmingly favorable and Tony not overwhelmingly thorough.
I forgot Sid. His numbers are no better than what I achieve with my GRS.

I'm not foot dragging, I'm just not drinking the Kool-Ald.
Do what you want I really don't care one bit.
But I won't shut up just because the fan boys point at me and chant "Unclean....unclean"
Prove me wrong with hard facts and I will shut up.

I love how contentious things get when you ask questions no one can answer and you get tagged a troublemaker or "foot dragger"

I even suggested that this product will work better with a well designed exit duct. I was actually trying to help make this a better product but what do I get? A bunch of crap from people that contributed nothing.
Ridiculous.

I got jumped all over for saying this IC couldn't exceed 100% efficiency.
Well?? What do the figures say?? It ain't over 100% is it? Any apologies from my bashers? Of course not.
I of course didn't expect the level of maturity it would take to actually do such.

So pick away folks


PS:

Just had a great idea. Why don't we rename the site NAM7

 

I totally agree.

 

since Leica just came out with the M8, that sounds already old hat.

 

Took me a while on that one John



Wouldn't that be North American M8ing?

 

whoa whoa whoa, everything you said was all honourable and correct, up until you said it didn't achieve 100% efficiency. Yes, in those two or three tests it didn't, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility.

What i'd like to see is someone that can post consistent lap times, to do a comparison on the track between stock, GRS, and DFIC. That would give a realistic view of what gains could be had. On the track, you have high velocity airflow, low velocity air flow, the most possible heat that the car can generate (i.e WOT and high rpm). Maybe with a 15% pulley, not stock pulley, as well. Dyno won't work. And i don't know about others, but i don't really care about steady state cooling, i'm more concerned with WOT, high heat and high load applications....

 

I agree 100%

 

and saw much lower IATs. Dig up some of his posts for the details....

I'm not too concerned about the 100% Thermal efficiency stuff. I don't think it's possible at WOT, and at anything other than WOT, it doesn't really matter. At cruise there's much less air going into the motor, so the ratio of cooling air to charge air gets very, very high. That's why I do my testing at red-line under WOT.

For more than you ever wanted to know about IC cores, take a look at this.....

While it's 8 pages of graphs covering performance numbers for many models of cores, what you will see is that none of the curves are flat lines. That's a long way of saying that how you test it will really effect your numbers....

Go 100 MPH in 6th and take your foot off the throttle, and the TE will go through the roof.

But some interesting things can be seen from these charges. What's the effect of doubling the length of the IC? Or it's width? or a change in cooling air flow? It gives very good hints about what one can expect as we do our mods....

Matt

 

Excuse me butt my butt is very sensitive, and quite quantitative, that's why I keep it in such good condition.

And my Butt dyno says:

That's not why I bought the DFIC, to improve the butt dyno (though that's nice), and it wasn't blind allegience to M7 either (though I like their products), I saw the engineering, the reviews from previous installations, and results from those I respect like MSFITOY (a real car guy not just poseurs like us), and Matt (a real wrencher) and decided I wanted this as well. I did notice an immediate improvement to my previous stock IC and Alta Diverter. Quantitative results, not really, unless I strap a Richter scale to my butt, but it definately was a result. Though I'm sure what I'm writing is just blah, blah, blah to our real scientists here on NAM.

Some of the NAMers I read just seem to love controversy for the sake of an argument, as though that somehow makes them look more intelligent. Questioning, dreaming, experimenting has been the fabric of invention and will continue to be for our MINIs. I say keep it up, but be fair to those that have produced favorable DFIC numbers, and fair to those that keep real products coming down the pike.

Paul

 

Nice post

A little more butt information than I wanted though

 

Aw shucks Paul...you're embarrassing me

 

we monitored input and amp temps all weekend as well as coolant temps..... since that was not our focus (M62 tuning) I can not recall but it seems like it was about 20 deg in 86 amb temps ......we were pretty damn impressed with the air temps..... Dave did measurements on the DFIC and stock early on with the 62 and got some huge number dif in IAT ...... again it is not our focus but did get our attention

 

The one thing I noted about those charts is that they are done at a consistent pressure, consistent flow, consistent inlet temp and consistent ambient temps, which makes sense.
So far I'm the only one posting results on testing using a similar process.

Your go to 100 example is very true. So is the opposite. Accelerate to 100 fast from a steady state and you IC efficiency looks very good too..

I didn't see evidence of that being done on your linked example. It's all steady state.

 

Do you find the the cars pull or acceleration is smoother thru the rpm band to redline?

Perhaps I need my butt dyno calibrated but with my old IC, I sensed a positive bump in the cars pull / acceleration between 4-5000 rpms. With the DFIC it seems to have disappeared.

 

Every aftercooler, air-to-air or air-to-water, is highly dependent on the amount of "coolant" (ambient air or water, respectively) it receives. When you rely on test results of an aftercooler you must keep in mind that a proper duct/scoop is the single most important element of an aftercooler system. It all comes down to ambient air quality.
From my findings, these deep cores require high speed to work properly. For the street, you'd be hard pressed to out do the stock unit.

 

Here's a way to estimate heat soak recovery from steady state data... But it's a pain in the ***. But there is a much easier way. Weigh all the TMICs and list what they are made of. Since cooling air flow is pretty similar on all of them, recovery times will be proportional to thermal mass.

This is actually why the stock unit is such a nice build. It's light. very light. Very fast response to change....

Too bad the cooling airflow is so poor.

Matt

 

Sorry

If/when a good exit duct gets built for the DFIC it'll be another step up.
To paraphrase Don, getting air in and out well is the key.

Getting it out of any traditional top mount is an issue.

Irony....
Isn't this exactly what I got beat up for saying a few weeks ago?

I was quite pointedly told that a larger IC will cool as fast as a small IC.
I.E. a 2lb IC will go from 200º to 50º in the same amount of time a 1/2lb IC will. Given all other variables being identical.

Color me confused

 

 

Just a slight one...

 

You could make the argument that the frequency of the, tubulators & mass is very high defeating the TE & SC efficency. However, I can still take the 2lb (2"x1" ) block, put it in my rolling mill, roll it to .030 & it will heat & cool faster than the 1/2lb (1"x1/2") block.
All the TE data I have collected is not repeatable (that is I am not satisfied with it), therefore worthless info. The only real data colected is from the flow bench & all that can be determined is the core restriction.

As DMH Don says, the bigger the IC, the more air you are going to need & water to air needs big air, maybe bigger air, depending on the radiator being used.