All of Matt's efforts are sincerely appreciated and IMO he should be paid for his time. Afterall many contributed to the WMS racing fund. I think it would be very valuble to the MINI cummunity to have an independent tester of performance products. I for one have learned the hard (and expensive way) that not everything works. If it is OK with Matt and a testing fund could be set up I will be happy to make a generous contribution. Matt, thanks for all that you have contributed.

 

Matt has become, whether he likes it or not , the 3rd party, objective, IC(and other stuff) testing guy.

He has very good testing methodology and delivers well stated results.
He's believable

 

As long as no Vendor contributes

 

I think it would be great to have independent testing - sort of a "consumer reports" for MINI performance products. How may of you have spent money on stuff that in retrospect which you didn't? How cool would it be to have IC, CAI, or exhaust comparisons done on one car under controlled conditions? IMO we rely way too much on vendor marketing and owner testimonials. If 500 people each put up $25.00 we could raise $12,500. I personally have spent over $500.00 on stupid stuff!

 

My Consumer Report is knowing which guys will tell you the truth here and on other sites. Knowing who really has a clue and who talks a good game.
Then do some more research.

It works. I haven't wasted any money really. I have a few bling things but I knew that going in so that's really on me.

 

First and foremost DITTO and count me in for some $$.

What would I like to see tested? ECU re-flash

Lets take a 15 pulley car (w/ CAI and exhaust) and compare GIAC, MTH, Minipowerprogram, and Unichip - the most common out there.

If a vendor wishes to donate his program for testing - it would be welcomed and noted.

get MC2 involved too!

 

That's a good product line to test.
The only negative I can see is there's always the "well get a custom tune from us" argument. Which will leave some out ala FBT because for now it is only a custom tune.

 

Wouldn't the TE number incorporate the temp drop? Sorry if it's a dunce question, however I do specialize in those (ask my wife ).

 

Wow, I gotta say thanks for the offers of support, but (and this is hard to say): I don't want any.

I measure because I like to.
I share because that's the way I am.

But there's more to it than that. All this started because I couldn't replicate HP claims for vendors. But to be fair to the vendors, I don't have the resources to do it the same way (like no profit stream to pay for dyno time). Also, I've been, at times, pretty harsh on folks who posted numbers without really understanding testing methodology, measurement uncertainty, precision and accuracy, or statistics.

But I'm not all altruism. I did have an idea for a product line for Mini parts (not really performance parts, more on the line of information and human interface stuff), and if that were to happen, going out and testing and providing value to the community would create a reputation of integrity, which I hope has happened. but life doesn't always go as planned, and my "partner in crime" decided he didn't want to go through the hassle of getting his green card (which is a real PITA now, even though he's got a work visa and isn't a security risk, and he and I have created award winning products in the semiconductor industry) Seems programmers are a national security threat , and it's very, very hard to be a forigner here in the US, and his son is about to start school, so back to Germany he went, where our BS border policies and shakey public schools will no longer be a (direct) concern to him. Oh well.

Now, during that time I got hooked up with Gary and MC Squared, and you all (at least those that bought subscriptions! ) get the benefit of my insight. It pays a page rate (no, not much, but hay, now I'm a paid automotive journalist!) and gets a distribution to, belive it or not, those that don't know about NAM! And life is going on.

So, what do I get out of this? Well, I tested Jeff Perrin's prototype flow through (I was the perfect candidate as I'd said I didn't think it would work!). In exchange Jeff has offered to help with parts discounts if I need anything. For the record, I've never taken advantage of the offer.

With M7 I did an exchange of service. After writing a thread on "improving the AGS, one man's journey" or something like that, Peter offered to send me a V3 AGS tube because I was working on a V1. (I don't know if my work in the thread started them doing the flow modeling of the pockets around the thread inserts or not, doesn't really matter, but it lead to better product.) I'm no dummy, so I accepted. this started a conversation about creating a how to for it's install, and in exchange for doing it (including hacking my own wiring harness for the TB extension) I was "paid" for the work (all 26 pages) with a DFIC for testing, that I get to keep. FWIW, that compensation rate is about 30% of what I'm to charge the Semi industry for consulting work. And if I didn't like it, you can be it would show up in the Marketplace for others to enjoy.

Through MC2, I've had the prevalage of meeting the Dinan crowed, including Steve, the man himself, and got the Dinan demo car for a weekend to drive. That was fun! I also got to help Gary with his brake job, and went to the Historics on MC2s dime (me and Alison liked it more than Cheryl did. She got lots and lots of Mommy duties, and the bed wasn't that comfortable, with Alison doing cartwheels between us as we tried to sleep.) And Alison has been in a magazine, and Cheryl got to write a column, and every now and then, some parts that have been sent in from vendors filter onto my car (right now, the gominigo front licence plate holder is getting "tested" on my rig!) And I get itty bitty paychecks for all my efforts!

So, everyone involved has an ajenda. Mine was to make an objective name for possible future commercial gain, with an occational part thrown in. The vendors of parts that I test get an "independant" evaluation that isn't them tooting thier own horn. MC2 gets much more understanding about cars technology than they could afford at initial start up of the magazine, and you all get some numbers with a well described testing methodology with statistical significance attached to the numbers presented. We all give and get something for the efforts.

Now, I appreciate the offer of support, but like I said earlier, no thank you all. If I took money, I'd have to deliver on a time line, and right now, that's my time line (aks Jeff about that, I have another one of his parts to test that I haven't done jack for, but he's getting what he paid for!)

Maybe in the future it will change. but for now, if you want to thank me with money, send it to:
Amnesty International,
the Interfaith Alliance.
American Rivers or the ACLU.
They all are doing things much more important than I, and with our current social and political climate, they have a much harder job than most any of us. (Yeah, I' a liberal, but I say that with pride). Do what you want (as long as it doens't step on others rights), and protect the system that gives us all the freedoms that many appear to take so for granted.

But I'm both surprised and touched, that's for sure. And that combo is pretty rare in my life. So thank you one and all....

Matt

 

Point taken - but many here would be happy purchasing the "better" ecu package. So it's no a question of who gives the best custom tune - its a comparision of ecu packages available for a level 1 MODed car - 15 pulley/cai/exhaust.



.

 

Technically, yes, that's correct, but many people tend to separate the numbers, and say pressure drop is bad, which isn't always true. I was just trying to clear that point up, is all.

 

Absolutely.

Just doing my usual PITA devil's advocate thing. If it isn't me then someone with an agenda will bring it up as a leverage point.

Really nice idea.

 

Back to the topic: pressure drop v. TE.
If I read Dr O's graph right, there's about a 1.2psi drop at redline, which is about 8% of 15psi. The 7%age point increase in TE over stock is about a 10% increase (71-64)/64. So, what's the relationship between pressure drop and TE? Can I simply add these %age changes and get a net 2%age point increase in performance? [sorry, that's a setup question--it can't be that simple...)

 

It isn't simple and no you can't

Read this

Turbo based but an IC is an IC.

Well kinda

 

edit

 

IMO it's not that simple. 1.2 + psi loss at the top is a pretty big number if 15 is the number. The air dencity is relative to the boost. Boost is easy, dencity is hard & a lot more expensive.
I'm an onlooker on this thread. I believe that a highflow core design is best. So, I'll watch, read & wait. Matt has his work cut out for him......

 

Man you are fast. Good post. Good link. Leave to get the mail &......there is a link to how complicated this problem is.....

 

It's in my Bookmarks.

I read it on occasions to remind me of how little I know

 

Don't feel bad. At my age, I forget more than I know.

 

Thanks obehave! Gee, that's a hard read for an economist... But I'll conclude it all comes down to resources (time and energy, mainly mine) so being an economist comes in handy sometimes.
Every time I look at the front of my car, I see about 70% of the DFIC, so I keep thinking that if I could see 100% of the fins from the front of the car, I'd be getting more air into the thing. Then I think about aerodynamics and it's not always the case that making a bigger hole in the bonnet makes for more cooling of the IC. A bar-type water mister would be a good idea, sitting at the bottom lip of the DFIC spraying a fin water mist upward, constantly. Then there's the weight of all that water, and the pump, and the switching mechanism (gee, isn't that what the second switch on my Unichip's for?)
Ah well. I keep thinking that if we don't solve this problem soon, and before the '07 MINIs arrive, it will be too late. Noone will be interested in getting more out of their SC MINIs when the talk moves to TCing.
cheers,

 

"Ah well. I keep thinking that if we don't solve this problem soon, and before the '07 MINIs arrive, it will be too late. Noone will be interested in getting more out of their SC MINIs when the talk moves to TCing." No way...

And how do you think your new DFIC has improved performance? I'de be interested to know what your impression is.

 

Boy, I hope you're right. It's just been my experience, with Audio, bicycles, cameras, computers and the like, that once a new technology or era has entered (such as TC over SC), the manufacturer is the first to abandon support for the old technology, then other manufacturers and retailers follow as they old consumer base matures and declines (naturally) and the new base is targeted for upgrades, mods and the like. It's a standard model seen throughout the consumer world, and I hope doesn't apply to MINIs.
To your second question: I have no idea. My PoPo-dyno isn't calibrated for intercooler mods! To be honest, I can't tell much difference between my car and a stock MCS, other than the harsh ride and tire wear. Most people, including participants in MTTS,) who look at my car don't even notice it's not stock (now that was a big disappointment.) I bought the DFIC because theoretically it should be better than the stock one due to better airflow, but so far the numbers are not there to support a major (it might be statistically significant if we got more observations, I don't know) improvement IMHO.
Anyway, I don't regret buying the DFIC at all! It makes changing the plugs easier...

 

Even when the first 07 ships, there will be just one 07 that is a candidate for mods, and almost 200,000 02-06 Minis out there as a target market. Sure the change will come with more shipments, but there is also the "post warranty" market of the older cars that will be coming on line for changes....

If just the end of production spelled the end of parts for a car, my 65 Mustang would probably be in a wrecking yard.....

Matt

 

Ah well. I keep thinking that if we don't solve this problem soon, and before the '07 MINIs arrive, it will be too late. Noone will be interested in getting more out of their SC MINIs when the talk moves to TCing.
cheers,[/quote]

I also agree with Matt and IMHO there will be large problems with the 07's when it comes to modding but time will tell. I for one will take a SC over a turbo any day. The SC just builds the type of power that blends with my driving style better than a turbo car. The SC cars will continue to benefit from development interest and dollars for a long time to come.

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

I don't think of our cars from a consumer point of view but rather an enthusiast point of view and for enthusiasts the product life cycle is much longer to indefinite........... As the 02 - 03 etc get some miles on them the cars will become available to people who like fun cars without a lot of up front cash... they will want them to go faster etc...mods will live on and all of this willl be around for quite a while...... after all, the next decade will usher out the era of the fossil fuel car..... WE, my friends.... are..... old school.....and our Minis will be cool for a long time...... The 07 etc will have its own following but these SC cars, as "old school" as they are will be the ones that everyone remembers. IMNSHO