Jeff,

We all appreciate your interest in the M7 DFIC, and we'll be happy to help. At M7 we put as much effort as is needed to bring the best products to our fellow motorers, and the DFIC is not different. Literally months of development effort has gone into bringing the Direct Flow Intercooler to our customers, through every process from CAD modeling, to computational simulations, to prototyping and finally the released product so that it works as expected when delivered. As with any company producing innovative parts, we like to protect the investment of our time, and patents are one way to do this. The M7 DFIC has been assigned the US Patent Pending number US60/749,682.

The AGS patent is currently undergoing revision for a CIP. We can forward you the original documentation if you like.

If you are concerned about stepping on our proverbial toes as far as product development goes, feel free to give us a call. We're always available to answer any questions you might have. Contact information can be found on our website at www.m7tuning.com

Again, thank you for your interest in our products. Let us know if we can help further.

Will
M7 Tuning

 

I think there's a typo in that patent number
It should be a seven digit number less than about 7,100,000 and probably greater than about 6,500,000 if it was recently issued (sometime after 2003)

 

You might be right. However, the process for moving from Provisional Patent Pending status to full Patent award is not a quick process. It's possible the number is wrong, and I'll double check with our patent attourney on this, when he wakes up. I'm willing to bet it's the status that is throwing you off, however.

 

enough of the BS..... when will we see numbers.....

I got a PM from a friend that said that he felt the M7 would only be better at speed... that the Alta due to its sheer size will perform better at lower speeds..... what do you all think of this?

 

Usually it's m, but that's not really the point. Point is that the calculations of thermal efficiency are made with the assumption that everything else is held constant. Now, tell me how many intercoolers have 0 pressure loss across the core? Is mass flow really constant? I think you'll agree that the answer is most likely no. So, in your calculation of thermal efficiency, you do not take into account the possibility that pressure may drop across the core. So take the condition where there is a 100% thermal transference to the ambient air as it flows through the core. Now, with a pressure drop it certainly possible to have, say, another 2% decrease in temperature. So now when you measure the air coming out of the intercooler, you would have a 102% thermal efficiency, because you didn't include pressure as a component of the calculation.

Now you have achieved higher than 100% thermal efficiency by definition and assumption. A true calculation of intercooler efficiency would have to account for temperature, pressure, mass flow, etc. as well as maintaining accurate readings of the true "ambient" temp, etc., and could not exceed 100% efficiency. I understand, however, that not everyone wants to tackle that complex of a calculation. If one insists on using the simpler approximation of thermal efficiency, one has to expect "strange" conditions, like over 100% thermal efficiency, to arise.

And since we're nitpicking, "temperature" is a scale applied to the heat (energy) density of a material. From www.m-w.com:

Main Entry: tem·per·a·ture
Function: noun
2 a : degree of hotness or coldness measured on a definite scale -- compare [SIZE=-1]THERMOMETER[/SIZE]

Main Entry: 2heat
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English hete, from Old English h[AE]te, h[AE]tu; akin to Old English hAt hot
e (1) : added energy that causes substances to rise in temperature, fuse, evaporate, expand, or undergo any of various other related changes, that flows to a body by contact with or radiation from bodies at higher temperatures, and that can be produced in a body (as by compression) (2) : the energy associated with the random motions of the molecules, atoms, or smaller structural units of which matter is composed


So thermal efficiency is a measure of the efficiency to transfer heat from one material to another, not the transference of temperature.

 

Workin on it.

As far as the Alta unit working better, without data no one can say for sure, but who told you size mattered?

The DFIC should work fine at lower speeds due to very large surface area. I'm not sure how size would factor in when you are looking to have the largest exposed surface to facilitate heat transfer. I'm not worried about poor low speed performance. The preliminary testing shows very fast recovery time coming off of a stop. But again, we'll have to wait for more data.

 

Thanks

 

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. I thought you already had a patent approved. In fact, you haven't yet been granted a patent, you have submitted an application. And it is true, it could take 3 to 5 years until the patent is approved. Also, if you just submitted the application, it won't be online for a couple of months or so. Now it all makes sense.

I just might add that calling the technology "patented" (as is done on your web site and the posted announcement) is a bit misleading since you have only applied for your patent. It could be rejected or the claims could be narrowed to such an extent that the patent is quite limited. It will be a few years until we know this outcome. Good luck!

 

The wonders of Patent Law . I took a class in college on this, fun stuff. Most likely, I'm going to take a jump at this. Idealistacally, we are reducing the air temps. So Stupid question, what is the delta temp difference between stock and this unit on the air, going into the engine?

The colder the air, the more compact it can be, and the more you can shove into the cylinder. Thus the more power you get out. Just a few stupid things, but what kind of temps are we talking at idle and freeway speeds?

I figure that in due time the test results will be delivered, just a question if you had these during development though.

 

At idle, the air is going around and around the SC, because of the bypass, ans it's about 60-80 C. But this isn't aproblem, because the motor is under so little load.

At WOT and redline in 2nd gear, I'm seeing temps out of the SC of 100-120 C, with an ambient of 40-50 F (just to mix units...). At 70 MPH and WOT, the stock IC was testing at about 60-65% thermal efficiency, that is, reducing the temp gain from the SC 60-65%.

Eventually, I'll be getting a rig from M7 to test, and since they don't pay me, the numbers can be seen as independantly measured.

But that will take a while. Until then, we're just left with the "typewriter racing".....

Matt

 

when you say out of the SC, are you saying right before the air goes into the chamber? I'm interested to know, what kind of temps do you get before the sc and after it? How much thermal heat is going into adding boost?

 

15.0.....93.2......43.4.....22.3.....63.7%
15.5.....105.3....50.9......43.0.....60.6%
15.5.....102.6....46.6......25.0.....64.3%
15.5......99.2.....43.0......21.0.....67.1%
16.0......99.0.....44.6......24.0.....65.5%

The first number is the ambient temp (all temp are centigrade).
The second number is out of the SC before the IC (measured at the rubber coupler).
The third number is post IC before the intake manifold (measured at the rubber coupler).
The fourth number is post IC before the HP run (as an indication of heat soak)
The 5the number is the IC thermal efficiency at redline, second gear (about 70 MPH)
This was a stock IC.
So you can see that I'm seeing temp gains of 80 C or so out of the SC.
Doing some more math, about a quarter of post SC boost is due to gas heating.
And about 15% of the post IC boost is due to gas heating.

But then, that's why we use an IC!

Matt

 

Will with the delta's we saw at 30 MPH I do not think we will have a problem out performing any of the larger old school Ic's which still have to have the air make a 90 edgree turn before they even start to work. As a matter of fact I think that the lower the speed the worse it would be because they have even less pressure to try and make that turn. Of course I am just basing this on what we saw on one day of running. Hopefully the Dr. will be able to confirm this or perhaps you can go " high tech " on us and run some simulations when you get the time.

Randy
m7 Tuning

 

80-c to run through the sc... I mean if we could lower that to like 40-c and bring the thermal efficency higher, it would free up more power! And possibly more boost from the SC itself no?

 

but you aint gonna be able to do that with a roots SC. The thermal efficiency of the SC is part of it's design. And that's just the way it is.

Also, the roots isn't a compressor, it's just an air pump. There are things called twin-screw SCs that compress while pumping, and they do have better thermal efficiency. The trend towards turbos is driven in part by the even greater still thermal efficiency. It's just the nature of the beasts.

One of the reasons that people port and polish the SC is to reduce the turbulence and reduce heating, but I've never seen real data on how well it works.

Our roots blowers are nice, in that they are affordable, and work pretty well, the IC makes up for some of the termal effeciency problems. The twin-screw is more expensive to make, and also has an issue of heating the charge even when the boost is low (like when the bypass is open) because it compresses even if you don't need it to.

I'm afraid that if you want much better thermal efficiencies, you'll have to wait for the turbo in 07.

Matt

 

hmm, how much trouble and benefit would it be to install a twin screw.

 

As a side note. I'm pretty sure centrifugal superchargers are as thermally efficient as a turbo. They should be. Their compression works them same the only difference is how the impellers are driven.

Anybody with manufacturing skills could replace the current SC with a shaft to drive the water pump as is and also use that shaft with properly dimensioned pulleys to drive a Vortech or Paxton unit.


You could replace those inefficient "horns" with some round mandrel tubing and pick up a crapload of HP just through flow improvements. Put the TB closer to the head in the induction path, etc.

 

Interesting idea regarding the vortech chargers, im originally from VW world and seen them fitted to Corrados and the like. I also owned a VW Polo G40 with a G-Lader supercharger, same as a G60 but slightly smaller. The only problem was that they need refurbishing every 50,000 miles. Quite costly. But the sound was gorrrrrgeous. BUT anyway i cant see where the space is in a MINI engine bay to fit one of these centrifugal chargers :(

 

I should have listened to obehave.

 

Hey who needs Andy .. look like Will is taking up the slack

 

what slack?

 

Peter,

What was the ambient temperature during this run?


Never mind, I found it. Guess I didn't read far enough

 

I heard 70F...

 

Between 68 and 69 .

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

68˚Fusing the internal MINI thermometer and 70˚F on our outdoor thermometer.....

peter