I'm sorry you feel this way...I haven't changed but it appears that anyone associated with M7 is being broad brushed as lacking credibility. It's your right to believe that but I think you'll have regrets...

I cannot be expected to be neutral when I am heavily involved with the developement of a product that I support. One cannot assume that I've lost objectivity because of my involvement. If I have an ugly baby, I will say that I have an ugly baby. We have been deep inside the project since last year...you have not even seen one drawing...please don't assume that we're drinking coolade and spouting BS...keep in mind that we are all professionals and are not here making intercoolers for charity.

There are aspects of this project that involves the interactions of many components. Interactions that defied our expectations. To be honest, I had my doubts prior to the first road test. But the numbers are not hype...as far as I'm aware, the thermocouples used were of scientific standards and not your mother's turkey probe. They were mounted pre and post IC via the standard bung fittings designed into this IC. Peter and Randy were faced with numbers that even they found impossible to believe so they are doing further investigation through Matt. But the numbers, however unexplainable, needed to be release as preliminary...exactly how it was qualified. What would you have them do? Say nothing?

This is a business and in the business world, everyone is out on a limb to be the first and best before the next guy. This is same reason auto company's spend millions each year to develope and produce one of a kind concept vehicles to be displayed only once or twice at autoshows. This is a critical part of R&D. Do you find it as objectionable for them to show projects that produce 3000hp but will never be produced? Far from displaying "pie in the sky" concepts, M7 is presenting a product that is very revolutionary and they have every intentions of full production. It costed a lot of money and development time to bring it this far and he involved whom he considers the best and brightest for this project. If it fails, there's a lot of ego at stake...so why would we go and stick our collective necks out knowing that it would be chopped off? If you don't share our confidence and excitment, then please put M7, Msfitoy and Will on your ignore list and you won't be further irritated with our "Hypes"

Sid

 

Then don't let it bother you. I do it because I'm curious, and happen to have time on my hands now.

But really, there is room in the market for independant verification. And , FWIW, in the testing I've done, I found some very different results than other have.

Matt

ps, a lot of time, I do think CR is a waste of time, but they do their testing in controlled ways, explain what they do, and leave it to the reader to choose how to value the results. And that's good!

 

I think Dr Obnxs is the best example of a GOOD type of curiosity. He's never rude about it, asks nicely and then is patient about things, he respects any numbers for atleast how much work was put in, and is willing to help by gathering data himself and sharing it with us.

 

But let me tell you, this isn't a way to get rich!

Matt

 

There arent enough of those

 

Speaking for myself I agree with you.
But I also have to say any questions I have had were based on the assertion that greater than 100% could be achieved not that there was definitive data pointing to that conclusion.

I don't believe it can happen and you do. That's fine with me
Wouldn't be the first time I was clueless and I'm certain it wouldn't be the last.

I'm happy to wait and see the results but do enjoy the debate in the meantime.

 

It's all good. I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that M7 wasn't making that claim, is all.

All I said was it's theoretically possible. And as we all know, everything works in theory!

 

Yep.

My boss's theories bite me in the a$$ about once a week

 

That's more the nature of boss's than theories, I'd imagine.

 

You sure? From my observations, parents are typically never objective about their kid. Cute kid, by the way.

 

and my baby is the cutest thing ever!

Matt

 

My babies are THE cutest...but they do stink pretty bad sometimes

 

Originally Posted by minimute
What drives me crazy is the M7 crew comes on the board hypes everything, stirs the pot and flaming ensues. It's sad that even Sid has stooped to doing this. He was one guy who used to remain neutral. I guess having a vested interest in something will do that to you.

I thought I hit "Submit Reply" a while ago, but I guess got too busy...

After modifications to my GRS IC & diverter, and the addition of the larger M7 Extreme Scoop, I have what I think to be one of the more effective systems out there. Testing, with Matt's analytical assistance, revealed that I was getting gains over stock, albeit not a heck of a lot. This was before my improvements though...

I'm not going to part with that set-up unless something works better. Even though the DFIC concept was born from that testing, I'm not going to replace my current one with the DFIC if it's not an improvement. With that said, I too am very pleasantly surprised by the preliminary results!

We don't have the elite, big name tuners catering to our Community; we all know that, and the obvious reasons why. But, we do have the likes of M7, who continue to bring new, unique and thoughtful products to market for us. While they certainly don't need the input of others for further product ideas or improvements, I love the fact that they are open to our thoughts on how to improve the performance of this little car! In addition to this, Peter of M7 is affable, and seemingly always reachable by phone. Going to him with this crazy idea was a no-brainer...

Like many of our tuners, they are a small operation... They are guys like us on NAM who simply felt that they had the passion, skills and resources to deliver, and they have. It's always easy to scrutinize things for sure and be critical, but keeping this all in perspective certainly helps from an understanding perspective...

As with Sid, I too remain totally objective on the merits of the DFIC, as I do with all mods that I entertain. I've become an M7 fan simply because they've earned those feelings that I have...

If anyone has questions or concerns about M7, their products, patent approaches (different types of patents) or whatever, I highly suggest a phone call to them to get any desired details. Having a presence on the forums is great, but they certainly can't live here, and often times much is lost with the written/typed word...

 

no science here......just intuition...... I think it will work very well and even if it doesn't Peter et al have been very generous with their v.2 upgrades on other products........and I assume this will be the case here as well......

 

Getting patent information right is important, and what can be an obscure topic is brought to life when it involves something we care about -- like MINI performance. So, I have some information to add and some corrections to make, which are important (1) in general and (2) due to the expectation that this thread has generated that a published application will soon be available for us to peruse at the USPTO website. This is not the case, however, and while Mr. Horvath offered to let people see his application filing, there are reasons that he may not wish to voluntarily distribute it. I'll explain...

The number cited by M7 is a "provisional" patent application number (the clue is the "60/"). This will never be published or examined by the USPTO, but it will serve as the earliest effective filing date for any later filed "utility" patent applications that claim priority to the provisional patent application (i.e., claim it as a parent application, as it were).

Assuming the inventors at M7 [Peter and/or Will?] wish to claim priority to the provisional patent application (which they must since they have publicly disclosed the invention on NAM), they must file a utility patent application (i.e., official, the one that will be examined and may mature into an issued patent) within one year of filing the provisional patent application. 18 months from the earliest effective filing date (in this case, the provisional application filing date), the utility patent application will publish.

Each "art unit" at the USPTO is busy to different degrees, but the utility patent application will be examined and the "negotiation" between attorney/client and the USPTO will begin. I've had patents issue in a year and some that have not issued after five years, usually depending on the technology and the general level of activity in the relevant art. Generally speaking, the prosecution of mechanical-based patents is quicker than anything in pharmaceuticals/biology, etc.

Peter or Will mentioned ongoing improvements and the filing of CIPs (continuations in part). Though this is not to be construed as legal advise, if I were in his situation, I would simply submit further provisional patent applications (cheap) as substantial improvements are made and, still within the year of filing that first provisional patent application, file a utility patent application that claims priority to all of the provisional applications. The various embodiments within each provisional application can all be included in the final utility application. One thing that must be done is to include what is the most highly-developed, best version of the IC, the "best mode," at each step of the way as it's a requirement of patent law.

Now to the voluntary distribution of the provisional patent application. I am all for the free flow of inventive information once a client [though M7 is not my client in this case] is protected. Without knowing more, I am not sure that this is prudent in this case. Here are but two of the examples:

Though not my practice, some attorneys or patent agents submit, shall we say, "skeletal" provisional applications. I've even seen a hand-written page of notes submitted as a provisional patent application before. Often the idea, while present in the provisional application in a legal sense, benefits greatly from the greater level of elaboration that is often included in the utility patent application. In these case, it is often better to not voluntarily release a provisional.

In other instances, voluntarily letting an unscrupulous someone see your in-active-development invention may lead them to beat you to the punch and file their own application to an improvement that you would eventually come up with during the 18 months before your original idea would have been published. In that case, you're screwed.

Aside #1: I'm sure that nobody here fits that description, but a finite possibility is a finite possibility.

Aside #2: this is absolutely not directed at ALTA since they're the other terrific, reputable MINI company that has mentioned seeing your patent applications -- to their credit -- for the purposes of not infringing. In this case, again without knowing the completeness of your current filings, some would recommend simply talking to ALTA as the best way to proceed -- but I'm not dispensing advice. However, you and your attorney may be comfortable with the state of your portfolio, and may decide to release away...it's entirely possible and even "fine" under certain circumstances.

Releasing patent application early is M7's decision, of course, and I for one would LOVE to see it (or them), but I can't let someone wander down a particular path when I can offer some additional information that allows a better business decision. After all, we want M7 (and ALTA, others] to have an incentive to continue their prolific development in the MINI community, and patents can provide that protection and incentive!

Jeff Anderson

 

Wouldn't releasing that information now to anyone not restricted by a CDA be viewed as a public disclosure and thus affect their ability to file in some other countries?

 

Fortunately, the filing of a U.S. provisional patent application preserves foreign filing rights in all Paris Convention countries (169 of them if I recall), and disclosures made after the provisional filing will not affect the ability to file foreign patent applications in those countries. Thus, filing of a US provisional patent application preserves U.S. and foreign patent filing rights.

However, if I were at M7 I'd be careful about disclosing any improvements until those are filed upon as well.

 

Woops, sorry, I thought I was in a thread about the M7 DFIC. I must be in a thread about patent law. I'll see myself out.

 

I don't think that this thread is the first to meander a bit.....

Matt

 

I thought it was about stinky infants. I was so surprised when I found out it was about a new intercooler.

Steve

 

Thought I'd spice things up with a little pic of my other cars IC. I'm a newbie to this list be gentle...



I didn't realize they made IC's so small till I got the Mini. Here is a pic of my 93RX-7 engine bay IC (it's the big red thing :-)) it's about 14inch tall/3inch thick. I recently clicked off 117mph 1/4 in 12sec on street tires. Racelogic traction control, water injected, to many mods to list. It puts a dynoed 360hp to the wheels...not the fastest rx7 around but it runs real good. Its probably getting a new turbo for its birthday. See if you can pick out the diet mountain dew oil catch can :-)

Anyways I bought/love the mini 2006/jcw/royal grey end of last year and have bought most of the non engine related parts from m7 (get some pics up soon) sells, braces, splitter, grills, springs etc. He seems like a good guy and you can actually talk to him if needed. Being a small busy business owner I respect that.

I'm still hedging a little on his IC till I see some more #'s, but from talking to him personally it sounded great. Having two performance cars to buy parts for I have to be somewhat reasonable. I'm a little suprised as long as it sounds like its been worked on that they don't have more hard real life data that compares their ic to a stocker that would shut all of this up.

Ok real quick back to that patent discussion..lol. I've worked on some patents and I was under the impression that you couldn't list a product as patented like it is on the m7 site until it actually is patented. I think you have to list it as patent pending.

Dean

 

Dean,

We appreciate your interest, and that RX7 looks awesome! Truth is we do have some more numbers, but if you read through the various threads on here you'll see it's pretty much a futile effort for us to post our own numbers first. I realize that it's typical practice for a manufacturer to get the largest numbers possible, realistic or not, and post them up here or on their own websites.

So we're waiting to get enough units to allow for independent testing, since it makes life easier and has less of a tendency to turn a thread into a flame fest. Hopefully within the next week or two Matt will be able to turn out some numbers based on his standardized test methods, and we at M7 can get some independent verification on what we've seen.

If you need anything else, or just want to chat, just call or email!

 

I know where you’re coming from...

I'm secretly hoping it won't be is as good as it sounds (not really) because I'm having a hard time not ordering it write now. Good #'s will force me to order it immediately. I have a feeling it will end up on my car and now that you have a carbon fiber scoop option that sweetens things for sure:-) Pics of the CF scoop ? ...is it solid carbon fiber?

 

will dyno runs be a realistic measure of performance? what sort of test will be done? thermal efficiencies, and pressure drops, etc?

 

I haven't seen the CF scoop yet, but it'll be the same as our other CF scoops, which I believe are solid CF. I'm out on the East Coast, so I don't get to see all of the fun stuff before NAM, just some of it.

Here are a few plots from the design stage when we were doing our CFD tests. One thing to note is that I don't expect the intercooler to perform exactly like the plots show. If I got everything close to right, it should be close, but the numbers will tell the tale. So before anyone goes ballistic on us, these are showing a general behavior, not an exact performance of the DFIC, but may help to explain what may happen with this intercooler. Also, the turbolator fins are included in the calculation, I just suppressed them for the pictures because they blocked the view.

The setup for these plots has the car driving at exactly 70 MPH from left to right, at sea level (1 ATM pressure) with an ambient temp of spproximately 68.5 degrees F. You're only seeing the air flowing through the cooling side, with the scoop to the right and the exit to the left.

As you might expect with a scoop, a high pressure bubble is going to build up in front of the DFIC. This sim assumes a perfectly sealed scoop to IC interface, since I had no data on what amount may be leaking out. I think we've got a pretty good system, so I mostly trust a good seal.



You can see that the pressure is up to about 16 PSI in front of the intercooler, up from the standard 1 ATM of 14.7 psi. The exit on the right has a boundary condition of 1 ATM, but I think that this is high. Moving at 70 mph will probably lower the pressure as the air is pulled out the bottom of the engine bay. Again, not knowing exactly (yet, I'm working on setting up my car to test pressures at various points) I just set it to environmental pressure. You can see how the pressure drops as the air moves through the core, going down below 14.4 PSI before the exit. This is a significant pressure drop.

The velocity map is very cool.



The air comes in at 70 mph, and ends up at over 300 mph on exit! Certainly not a condition you will find with the stock intercooler besed on the flow geometry. I don't know if the air will really go that fast, but it will certainly speed up with any kind of pressure drop close to what the sims predict.

And now for the temperature plot. This should help to explain what we have seen, and the legendary 100%+ efficiency calculation. Once again, no we are not claiming to exceed 100% thermal efficiency, and we'll have to wait for Matt's testing to make any claims on efficiency at all. However, possiblities exist, apparently. As you would expect, as the pressure builds up in front of the scoop, the temperature will also rise, which it does be about 2 degrees F. Remeber that the volume is very large in front of the scoop, and it's constantly being fed 68.5 degree air at 70 mph. So the pressure drops as the air moves through the core and speeds up, and with any pressure drop there is a resulting temperature drop. How much? Well, the sim says about 20 degrees by the exit.



The average temperature inside the core is about 55 degrees F, which is lower than the ambient 68.5 degrees F. An interesting result, to say the least. If this is correct, then the data that we have shown could, in fact, be correct. It's not that we are exceeding 100% thermal efficiency, but that the caculation uses an incorrect value for the ambient temperature measurement, since the effective temperature of the cooling air could be as low as 50 degrees. Not saying that it will work like this, but the possibility seems to exist. So we're not violating any laws of physics, just using them creatively.

It's going to be interesting to be sure.