This information was buried in another thread, but I thought I'd make it more obvious, to keep folks from making a really bad decision by purchasing underdesigned crankshaft pulleys that can destroy your engine fairly quickly. I'm referring to those without any vibration damping, such as those from Alta, M7, and others.

The stock crank pulley used on the Mini engine has an elastomeric vibration damper, to keep the pulley from creating harmonic vibrations in the crankshaft, and for very good reason - having an undamped pulley out at the opposite end of the crank from the flywheel can destroy the engine.

Reduced size and weight pulleys have been installed on many cars by "tuners" in an effort to reduce power loss, mainly by running the alternator and water pump slower. Their reduced weight has little effect because they have a small radius.

Unfortunately, these "power pulleys" have been shown to be a bad idea over and over again. All cars have vibration damping on the crank pulley because it is simply good automotive engineering.

Here is a good article on the need for vibration dampers on crankshaft pulleys - a quote "...these power pulleys are created and installed by people who do not understand some very important principles of physics."

http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5

Bottom line is I suggest that you DO NOT install a lightweight crankshaft pulley without an integral vibration damper, if you like your engine - the vendors of such parts don't know what they are doing, and haven't invested the R&D or testing needed to produce such a part.

OK - now we go to the part where everyone who has installed one screams "You're full of it - I've had one on my car for xxxxx miles, and it hasn't barfed yet..."

Honest, guys, I didn't invent physics, I just participate. If you don't like the way reality works, tell it to the SAE.

 

Here we go again!!!!

 

Oh crap, and only one week to the Alta S/C and Crank pulley install! :::biting fingernails::: :impatient


-Justyn

 

I’ve seen this article have you seen this one:

http://store.webbmotorsports.com/for...opic.php?t=707


Of particular interest was this bit of info in the article:

info garnered from a designer of the Tritec motor that the engine was designed not to use the vibration damper - that was a BMW add-on.

I think Mr. Webb would disagree with this statement, particularly since he warrants the part and it’s effects for 2 years or 24,000 miles (not that that would be an extremely long period of time) he also does extensive testing of the parts he sells and has earned one of the highest reputations in the MINI tuner community, much higher than Dinan does who is mostly a BMW tuner.

Not gonna say that any doing modifications are without risks as you are by definition changing components that if not properly done could cause problems. Also what’s the reason engine mods are done? To get more power and what do you do with the added power? USE it right so your gonna be putting more strain on the parts just because you can. So this would add to the parts wearing out faster right? Hey if you wanted a boulevard cruiser you would have bought a Buick right.

I was on the fence about doing this but after reading right ups like this and talking to MINI folks in the know I decided to sign up for an upcoming pulley party and get one. Only time will tell if this was a good decision or not but life’s a crap shoot anyway who knows might get hit by beer truck tomorrow……

 

I am pretty sure the supercharger was a BMW add-on to the original Tritec motor as well.

 

guys after all he was just trying to help the community, though he didn't do the research in the places mentioned. i can clearly see where he is coming from, and his concern. but after all isn't the motor itself nothing but an add on to the horse and buggy, esp evident where I live!

Chili aka "Mikey"

 

Especially since this is the non-S forum. Any supercharger must be an add-on.

Steve

 

Not once does the article you linked refer to the engine in any variant of the MINI. Also, it's well known, and not debated afaik, whether the Inline 6 BMW Engine for example, the one used it the M3, needs to have a dampened crank pulley due to the physics of "that particular engine".

This being a MINI website, I don't understand the basis of you making such a post and claiming that because you've read that one article (or maybe you've read some other ones as well), you can make such a statement labeling all lightened dampeners, that afaik don't have a history of causing problems with the MINI engine, are in fact a "really bad idea".

 

First off, this post needs to be moved, wrong forum, Cooper (non-s) owners don't usually do pulleys.

Secondly, does the Cooper S engine have a dampened Pulley to begin with?

 

just chill out buddy I'm sure he's realizing this right about now! I posted something like this, but removed it in respect of the thread starter, he is wrong but he was only trying to help.

 

Sorry, I should have paid closer attention when I replied. Didn't mean to upset my NA brethren. Anyway, yes both of the current Cooper models come with dampened crank pullies.

 

If that is the case, the point OldRick made seems pretty valid. Basically you will remove any dampening effects of the stock pulley when you install an aftermarket one.

However, I don't recall ever seeing a post from a Cooper S owner complaining about a blown engine or a crack crankshaft from a pulley.

 

I don't doubt Randy's results for a minute. In terms of racing- and tuner-oriented testing, his report is a model of thorough analysis. However, he tested three cars for up to 24,000 miles, as I read the report. In terms of testing consumer-oriented automotive products, this isn't even in the running.

The sort of testing BMW performs on engine parts involves dozens and hundreds of engineers and cars, for hundreds of thousands of miles. They concluded that it made sense to spend an extra few dollars of manufacturing cost to add a damper to the crankshaft pulley to increase engine longevity and reduce maintenance costs.

There are products for the Mini that incorporate a harmonic damper on a lightened pulley for engineering reasons that they can articulate much better than I can:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=38616
You could also upgrade to the `05 spec Mini part which is both damped and lightened:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=50647
I can't imagine using an undamped pulley rather than one of these to save a few bucks while risking engine life.

Given the hundreds of man-years of analysis by hundreds of engineers that constitutes the body of knowledge of the SAE, I'd rather bet on the engineering that went into the stock pulley than on that of a couple of aftermarket tuners. While Alta and M7 claim no detrimental results, one can find an equal number of well-reputed tuners and racers who wouldn't touch an undamped pulley with a stick. I have read a number of articles on this topic over the years, and they all point to the same conclusion: for longevity, a crankshaft pulley needs a vibration damper. Period.

My concern is that I've seen a number of posts recently by people who seem to believe that a crank pulley is a low-cost risk-free method of upping power for a street-oriented car. It is plainly not in the same class of risk as a 15% supercharger pulley.

It is clear to me that anyone not willing to risk their engine for a handful of HP should not be considering installing a non-damped crankshaft pulley. Other's opinions may differ. I suggest searching through NAM for many many more posts on the topic.

P.S. - Sorry for not getting the right forum.

 

I believe the MC has a non-damped pulley (3#), and the older style
MCS pulley has a damped pulley (7.3#). The newer MCS pulley is
lighter but still damped (about 5.8#)

 

This same topic pops up from time to time in the Neon forums, and since the 2.0 Neon engine shares a lot of its engineering with the Mini engine, I feel that what Neon owners have discovered over the last 8-10 years with underdriven crank pulleys applies at least inpart, if not in full to the MC.

The 2.0 Neon engine has a rubber layer sandwiched in the crank pulley for dampening. According to the Dodge/Chrysler engineers that have chimed in on the topic, that dampening layer is designed to reduce the shock to the belt driven accessories (not to reduce internal wear). Neon owners have put millions of miles on their cars with underdriven crank pulleys without issue. I've personally had one on a Neon I used to own for 60-70k miles and had no problems with daily driving, autocrossing, drag racing, open track events, etc, and that engine saw 8000 rpm on a regular basis. The car had 115k miles on it when I sold it, and it still runs fine to this day. Some engines will see damage eventually with an underdriven, un-dampened, unbalanced crank pulley (Miatas come to mind), however I don't believe the Mini engine is one of them.

-Keith

 

Here's yet another opinion - a note to me from "Ryephile" titled "you s**k" - I've inserted asterisks to tone it down a bit...

"You're obviously a bitter, p**sy old man. What do you care if people are more willing to push the envelope than you are? You are not obligated to make assumptions based on your obviously irrelevant past experiences. Furthermore, your comments about the crank pulley are clearly uninformed. If you had talked to the Tritec engineers at DCX, you wouldn't be making the absurd "warnings" that you do. This forum doesn't need people like you, uninformed, opinionated *****."

Thanks for your thoughtful input, Ryephile.

 

I posted this in another thread:

"I had the 2% alta crank pulley installed with new stock belt on my 2003 MCS. Car already had 15% alta pulley. Since the install I have noticed low rpm resonance/rattle when I let clutch out in first at light throttle, and also when I lug engine at low rpm, like when I don't downshift coming into the drive. Also at idle I notice a little more rumble/ vibration. Nothing drastic. However, it is definitely present, and it definitely is a resonance at a low rpm. There are no problems with higher rpm. in fact, if you never idled or had to get going in first, there would be no need for the crank damper. I'm going to get new crank bolt and install at proper torque as I have my doubts about shop that installed it. However, if that does not cure the resonance, it's coming off and I'll put on the 2005 stock damped pulley."

Since posting the above I checked with the shop that did it and they volunteered that they tightened the bolt to 85 ft. lbs, which is correct torque. I think I'm going to revert to the newer factory damped crank pulley. The added roughness and vibration can't be good for the engine. It must just be my particular vehicle as noone else seems to notice any change in their car. Drat it, as there is a detectible improvement in power/acceleration and I was hopeful there would be no downside to the mod.
I just wish someone would explain where I went wrong and what I can do to fix the problem without changing out the Alta pulley.

 

i would have to agree with him.

 

Funny how the first ammendment gives everyone, even OldRick, the right to express their own opinion- regardless of whether or not facts exist behind their argument. I, personally, am happy that his opinion was shared, but i think it could have been done in a less "in your face" way.

On another note...this is definitely a "here we go again" thread and should be locked because there is already a VERY long thread dealing exactly with his concerns...

 

If Ryphile really did send that, I would have to say I've lost some respect for him and his company (or whatever the current situation is)...not cool, dude..there are better ways to argue a point.

 

Given the unsolicited PM's and emails that I have received from Ryephile in the past, the above quoted section sounds like his style. People sometimes behave in a very different manner on a public forum than they do in "private".

Back on topic, I like the info from the Neon community. If design traits are as common as suggested between the two engines, watching what happens to those guys with 100k+ miles may be a good preview for us.

 

Let me share my opinion:
Whether or not Ryephile said that or not I really don't care. What rick said was and is wrong. I really can see, and would react the same way if a newbie here told me that I don't know what I'm doing and I've been in the tuning business for almost as long as the MINI has been in the U.S. Whether or not he did say it, is for him to chime in on. You have to view this from both sides though. From rick's side I can see he was only trying to help out others on this site. GRANTED IT COULD HAVE BEEN SAID ALOT BETTTER! I've already stated from the view of the other side. Myself this really hasn't deterred my outlook on crank pullies, so if Randy thinks I will gain horsepower by it, and has a warranty, I really don't care. I haven't lost respect for anyone on here, inc. rick. Like I said it could have been said ALOT BETTER.

Mike

 

Like I said in an earlier post that I edited, It is better to be informed and post nothing than to be uninformed, or ill-informed, and post bogus, untrue crap. But that only slightly applies to this thread because of rick's position on the matter. As for Ryephile, if you treat him in respect he will treat you with it. I'm sure there are people on this forum that don't like rick, andy, or even kind, loveable me (well I know that about me, for instance people don't like the fact that a 17 year old has an MCS!), but if you bash them call them fools and do nothing but say they are wrong, and they have more experience in the matter than you'll ever have, he will, I would, and alot more NAMers would produce these messages. SO STOP BASHING, just like I told rick, remember El Diablito?

Mike

 

I would have doubted anyone who had been a moderator on Nam could be so crude...usually it's more like this one he sent me:
"Apparently, just like Andy and macncheese, you're not interested in providing accurate information. Good goin slick! "

we three are the cabal of confusion, eh?
__________________

 

my point of view and opinon is baiscally in regards to is it worth it...


is it worth it to put an undampned pulley on the car?

1.First off you have to weigh the cost (not overly expensive but i could spend my money better ways that would make ME happier)
2.The labor... kind of a pain in the BACK but not exactly the worst thing.
3.Performance... (not a whole lot... but alot of people do like theirs so...)

and the most important thing of all.. possible catostrophic engine failure... or possibly nothing at all...

Me personally... wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. BMW designed it with one... it probably needed it... they don't usually make stuff just to make stuff... on a rare occasion they do over engineer though... but to me it comes down to this... you have to pay money for a part that is kind of a pain to put in... and the performance gain isnt' all that great... and the risk is crank walk or failure... welp seems simple to me... ill be spending my money on other things... just my .02. I know lots of people like their crank pullies so i will put my flame suit on...
_