Drivetrain 05 pepper white MCS modification project
#426
I haven't think that far. I want to see how the standard issued pads fare before entertaining more aggressive pads. The Hawk racing pads I tried chewed up the rotors fast and left very persistent mess on the wheels. I never one that complained dust on the wheel with OEM semi-metallic pads.
#427
#428
My few contacts with him gave me the impression that he is not the most together person in the world, but fortunately the business is legit. The phone number on his site is his iPhone, so just text him.
I gather he does not sell them like hotcakes so he must only order from the manufacturer on demand basis.
I gather he does not sell them like hotcakes so he must only order from the manufacturer on demand basis.
#429
#430
#431
#432
#433
OVERDRIVE
iTrader: (1)
I haven't think that far. I want to see how the standard issued pads fare before entertaining more aggressive pads. The Hawk racing pads I tried chewed up the rotors fast and left very persistent mess on the wheels. I never one that complained dust on the wheel with OEM semi-metallic pads.
I assume your kit came with Wilwood BP20 pads. For me, those pads didn’t fare too well on the track I was on (WGI is known for being hard on brakes). Just a heads up.
#435
OVERDRIVE
iTrader: (1)
Carbotech XP10 - very linear. Braking is directly proportional to foot force on the pedal. High friction. Easy to modulate. Very user friendly. Easy on rotors for an out right race pad. Dusty but not too bad. Expensive. My experience with these was from a while back. I would use these on a shorter track that is a bit easier on brakes. I have run these on the street without issues except a bit of noise. On a track day I forced a set of these on a guy with a MINI with stock brakes and “street/track” pads and was complaining about the lousy MINI brakes. He didn’t believe the street/track pads were crap for the track and I said I would even change the pads for him to get him to try the Carbotechs. Next session he was all smiles; he could not believe the difference.
Carbotech XP12 - Same qualities as the 10, but more aggressive and more heat tolerant. Better for a track like WGI that is hard on brakes. I have not used these, but got this from a close MINI friend who ran a Gen II JCW on the same tracks as I run. More expensive than the 10s.
Next:
Wilwood Poly H - similar qualities as the Carbotechs and less expensive. High friction. A bit harder on rotors and dustier than the Carbotechs. I think that they may not be as heat tolerant as the XP12s. At WGI I have had problems with pad pickup on the rotors. I didn’t have this problem at Lime Rock (shorter track and easier on brakes). This should not have been a bedding-in issue but I wouldn’t rule anything out.
Wilwood Poly B - I used these once and don’t recall any issues with them, but for some reason I went from these to the Poly H. But I keep thinking I should try them again, in particular on the shorter tracks. They should be a bit less aggressive than the Poly H. They are slightly less expensive than the H pads.
Hawk DTC60s - I went to these for use at WGI because of the pad pickup issues with the Poly H pads. Very aggressive, high rotor wear and bad dust. But, very heat tolerant and they worked. I changed to these at the recommendation of several instructors who run Wilwoods on their E30 BMW race cars. I ran these at Lime Rock with no particular issues, but at Palmer (mid-length track with a lot of turns and braking zones) I found th that the DTC60s were too much like an on-off switch and hard to modulate. I will probably go to a less aggressive pad for that track.
For the rears, I have gone to a matching pad. Right now that would be a DTC60 to match the DTC60s in the front. This has helped to cut down the tail wiggle I have gotten with hard braking. To match the Poly H, I would probably go with the Carbotech XP10 as Wilwoods don’t make car specific pads.
I have just upgraded my front brakes to a 1 inch thick rotor vs the 0.81” thick rotor that comes with the Wilwood kit in the hopes that these will be more heat tolerant. With that I plan to go back to the Poly H pads.
I ran the Wilwood BP20s at WGI on a rain day, thinking that I wouldn’t need the braking of a full race pad. On a very wet track I melted the pads onto the rotor in a weird circular groove-like pattern. This was on the second session of a 2 day event. The race pads went back on for the rest of the event. Hence my comment about watching them. Depending on how aggressive you are on braking and how hard your track is on the brakes, you could do OK with them. They would not be my pick.
Hope this helps.
#436
Wow! Thank for taking the time to share your experience. A lot to think about including the trade off of pad cost and rotor and pad wear costs. I can only relate to your Hawk DTC60 WRT my experience with Hawk HT40 in the graph below. I used the HT40 in one track day which I jump from the Mini stock pad to it. It certainly has much more grab once it took on some heat. In the graph you can see the HT40 has a steeper friction slope than DTC60. I too found it a bit too much on/off so it is far from linear.
I only used the lightly used Hawk HT40 for one HPDE and the wear on the pads and rotors are quite rapid. I used the HT40 on the street and thought it would be suicidal, but it turned out not too bad if you are aware of it. I did it because I just want it and the stock brakes to get me thru the winter, and not want to buy a set of pad for the stock brakes.
As I mentioned the HT40 throws off some nasty dust onto the wheels, and they are very difficult to remove. It must be the pad binder Hawk used in the pad.
Brake technology is very interesting. There is abrasion, vibration - noise, friction coefficient vs temperature. There are way more than what meet the eyes, and marketing fluffs do not help for educated shopping.
I only used the lightly used Hawk HT40 for one HPDE and the wear on the pads and rotors are quite rapid. I used the HT40 on the street and thought it would be suicidal, but it turned out not too bad if you are aware of it. I did it because I just want it and the stock brakes to get me thru the winter, and not want to buy a set of pad for the stock brakes.
As I mentioned the HT40 throws off some nasty dust onto the wheels, and they are very difficult to remove. It must be the pad binder Hawk used in the pad.
Brake technology is very interesting. There is abrasion, vibration - noise, friction coefficient vs temperature. There are way more than what meet the eyes, and marketing fluffs do not help for educated shopping.
#437
I use the Hawk HPS as my car is 90% street driven, and a Justa. I have done 5 track days total, 2 on stock pads and 3 on the HPS, all track days here at PIR. The graph above is accurate from my experience. On the stock pads, the last few laps in the session, going into turn 1 and 10 the brakes got really soft as they were exceeding their tolerance for heat. Not so with the HPS. You do need to start your braking sooner on the street as they not very good at much until they get a little bit of heat into them. Initial bit is soft but I find that they are a good trade off in dust, bite, "stopping power," and heat resistance. Since I have only done one track day a year, I find these to suit my needs well. My slotted rotors don't really help much but they don't really hurt much either.
#438
I use the Hawk HPS as my car is 90% street driven, and a Justa. I have done 5 track days total, 2 on stock pads and 3 on the HPS, all track days here at PIR. The graph above is accurate from my experience. On the stock pads, the last few laps in the session, going into turn 1 and 10 the brakes got really soft as they were exceeding their tolerance for heat. Not so with the HPS. You do need to start your braking sooner on the street as they not very good at much until they get a little bit of heat into them. Initial bit is soft but I find that they are a good trade off in dust, bite, "stopping power," and heat resistance. Since I have only done one track day a year, I find these to suit my needs well. My slotted rotors don't really help much but they don't really hurt much either.
I check the prices for the Wilwood replacement rotors, and they are quite affordable if you are not so choosy. Mini is really looking forward to a lasting relationship with the Wilwood BBK as it is super easy to change pads.
Last edited by pnwR53S; 04-12-2018 at 05:42 PM.
#439
OVERDRIVE
iTrader: (1)
Your HPS pads have a pretty good start from low temperature, but the flat coefficient extends into higher temp than OEM pads. Seems a good fit for your need.
I check the prices for the Wilwood replacement rotors, and they are quite affordable if you are not so choosy. Mini is really looking forward to a lasting relationship with the Wilwood BBK as it is super easy to change pads.
I check the prices for the Wilwood replacement rotors, and they are quite affordable if you are not so choosy. Mini is really looking forward to a lasting relationship with the Wilwood BBK as it is super easy to change pads.
Todd at this web site has been really helpful to me for my Wilwood brake needs:
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com
He has a great listing of the Wilwood brake pads and you will note that he recommends the Poly B pads for MINIs:
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/brake-pads/
I am not a fan of using “street” anything for brake pads on the track. Yes, I have seen a lot of posts by people who state that they use a street or street/track pad on the track with no problems. How well these will work will depend on the car, the car’s HP, the driving style, how aggressively the driver brakes, the braking zone characteristics, how hard the track is on brakes, etc. For example, where a base Cooper might reach a top speed of 100 mph, a Cooper S might reach 120. While that is only a 20% increase in speed, it is almost a 45% increase in the energy that the brakes have to deal with to slow the car down. A brake pad that works on the base Cooper may not be sufficient to work on a Cooper S.
I have used the HPS, HP+, Yellow Stuff and BP20 on the track. All of these are either high end street pads or street/track pads. From personal experience and back to back, same day comparisons I have found that there is no comparison of these to a true track/race pad, the track pads are that much better. For my first track day, ever, I opted for the HPS pads figuring I wouldn’t/couldn’t be that hard on them. This was at Monticello which is 3.5 miles with 23 turns. By the end of that first day the pads were so overheated that they glazed over and they were almost incapable of stopping the car. Yes, this just my experience, but take it as a word of caution.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 04-13-2018 at 08:46 AM. Reason: Edit
#442
There were 5 R53 Mini's. Many familiar faces including a neighbours and his and her Miata's.
the forecast called for rain so I went to Costco and picked up a big tote box; very nice and the price is right
4 of the 5 R53s
there is this 5th R53 that is almost an exact clone of my Desire - down to the 16-inch SSR wheels ; but it has a rain roof; I told him to cease and desist being a copycat and he was a good sport about it
Last edited by pnwR53S; 04-14-2018 at 10:28 AM.
#443
first track day of the season
The blustery day started off with period of downpours and was not looking good. Fortunately our event did not start until close to 4pm. I was dreading the rain and wet track. This would be my first ever driving on a wet track. I set out to take it easy and be cautious. There are two new things in the Mini - the new Wilwood front brakes and the CoolerWorx shifter. I kept telling myself take the time to find the limit of traction and not to overdo it. We were just out there to have some clean fun so no need to risk the Mini's hide.
wet track but the wind helped dry up between showers
Right off from the beginning a Lotus hit a wall with extensive damages. It is a cautionary tale as it can happen to anyone, including the best drivers. We all dread that that might mean we losing a session or two.
Here is one short video from the GoPro. I placed the microphone at the rear bumper. I had tested this setup before. To my surprise the mic preamp was badly clipped and hence the distortion and crackle. I tested this setting with a one ball exhaust and in town driving. On the track with the louder Miltek and padle to the metal the sound pressure lever was much higher. I need to not select the +20 dB gain next time. The other thing with the GoPro is I should set to 720P instead of 1080P. For free loaders like me, Youtube reprocesses the video and 1080p will look worst than 720p when it is all done. The GoPro foked off when the file reached the maximum size and the recording stop. Also uploading 1080P to Youtube took eons.
my simple goal of the day was to treat it as the season's warm up session and to look for any bugs with the new parts
I nearly kill the commodity cheap BP10 pads that came with the Wilwood. People were telling me that they saw sparks when I brake, and I could smell the overheated brake linings. Despite of that the Wilwood front brakes worked great and I now know my last few sessions last season that I experienced violent front end shakes were due to the uneven brake lining transfer to the rotors. I thought the OEM control arm bushings were the cause, but now I know they are not. There is no perceptible rotor wear yet on the front rotors. I have a set of better pads coming from feaBay and will keep the BP10s for in town cruising.
The CoolerWorx shifter works as well on the track as on the road. It has now been track-tested.
wet track but the wind helped dry up between showers
Right off from the beginning a Lotus hit a wall with extensive damages. It is a cautionary tale as it can happen to anyone, including the best drivers. We all dread that that might mean we losing a session or two.
Here is one short video from the GoPro. I placed the microphone at the rear bumper. I had tested this setup before. To my surprise the mic preamp was badly clipped and hence the distortion and crackle. I tested this setting with a one ball exhaust and in town driving. On the track with the louder Miltek and padle to the metal the sound pressure lever was much higher. I need to not select the +20 dB gain next time. The other thing with the GoPro is I should set to 720P instead of 1080P. For free loaders like me, Youtube reprocesses the video and 1080p will look worst than 720p when it is all done. The GoPro foked off when the file reached the maximum size and the recording stop. Also uploading 1080P to Youtube took eons.
my simple goal of the day was to treat it as the season's warm up session and to look for any bugs with the new parts
I nearly kill the commodity cheap BP10 pads that came with the Wilwood. People were telling me that they saw sparks when I brake, and I could smell the overheated brake linings. Despite of that the Wilwood front brakes worked great and I now know my last few sessions last season that I experienced violent front end shakes were due to the uneven brake lining transfer to the rotors. I thought the OEM control arm bushings were the cause, but now I know they are not. There is no perceptible rotor wear yet on the front rotors. I have a set of better pads coming from feaBay and will keep the BP10s for in town cruising.
The CoolerWorx shifter works as well on the track as on the road. It has now been track-tested.
Last edited by pnwR53S; 04-16-2018 at 05:11 PM.
#445
I found a set of BP30 on fleaBay for cheap for next track day. 2 notches up should be better.
The tiny stock toy brakes on the rear seem adequate as there were no drama even with the 12.19" Wilwood up front.
Last edited by pnwR53S; 04-17-2018 at 01:48 PM.
#450
OVERDRIVE
iTrader: (1)
We were spot on about the street pads not up to the job on track. I set out to drive leisurely the first day of the season. Too much traffic also and I didn't want to follow too close. Only towards the end I braked harder and later at the end of straights, and that just about killing them.
I found a set of BP30 on feaBay for cheap for next track day. 2 notches up should be better.
The tiny stock toy brakes on the rear seem adequate as there were no drama even with the 12.19" Wilwood up front.
I found a set of BP30 on feaBay for cheap for next track day. 2 notches up should be better.
The tiny stock toy brakes on the rear seem adequate as there were no drama even with the 12.19" Wilwood up front.
The baby brakes in the back don’t do a lot, but they do affect the stability of the car under hard braking. If you find that you are getting some tail wiggle under hard braking, you will want to try a more aggressive pad back there. I know, it is counterintuitive, but it will help.