Drivetrain Revolution Mini Works Camshaft..... taking orders
From NAM, forever
This thread happened to be the proverbial straw. There is a lot of history.
Back to cams please.
This thread happened to be the proverbial straw. There is a lot of history.
Back to cams please.
Shhh...Your going to ruin his reputation
Man I wish this mud slinging would just stop...
There are so many hidden agendas around here its tough--really tough--to figure out who's trustworthy, and who's not. This keeps up, I might be able to get rid of my TV dish, following this is certainly more entertaining and cheaper...
I can understand 100% why Jan wouldn't give out spec's on anything he's developed; somebody else WILL take advantage of the R&D, and this stuff between the vendors is definitely cutthroat. I've seen Jan at work--on my own car and others, at a tuning event, and in my opinion he's totally legit, and I wouldn't hesitate to install his stuff, or have him work on my car, or ask him for his opinion on how to proceed next on my car. What he does is VERY impressive, and I don't fault him one bit for protecting what he does for a living. You're no closer to getting the Colonel's secret recipe than you are Jan's cam specs, and we'll all have to live with that. I'm fine with it. All I need is the dyno numbers.
The flip side is, and again this is my opinion, is that on these boards Jan can come off as a bit contentious. I guess all the constant BS can do that to you, but at this point I think he's well-established enough he doesn't need to defend himself so vigorously, but again that's my opinion. I went with Jan's tune, but seeing some of the back and forth on these boards, it wasn't without a wee bit of trepidation. After seeing him do the work, and work on other more complicated cars than my own, I was totally impressed. In person he's the nicest guy you could hope to meet, and VERY professional--comes off much better in person than on these boards. I wouldn't hesitate to go back to him.
I can't speak for/against other vendors, but having followed what Jan's done, I'm hard pressed to find anyone who has thought this all out with parts that work well and play well together, custom tuned it all, and posted results, who's as accessible as Jan is. So when things get nasty on the boards, I cringe and ignore it, sift through the insults, and usually end up learning a thing or two....
There are so many hidden agendas around here its tough--really tough--to figure out who's trustworthy, and who's not. This keeps up, I might be able to get rid of my TV dish, following this is certainly more entertaining and cheaper...
I can understand 100% why Jan wouldn't give out spec's on anything he's developed; somebody else WILL take advantage of the R&D, and this stuff between the vendors is definitely cutthroat. I've seen Jan at work--on my own car and others, at a tuning event, and in my opinion he's totally legit, and I wouldn't hesitate to install his stuff, or have him work on my car, or ask him for his opinion on how to proceed next on my car. What he does is VERY impressive, and I don't fault him one bit for protecting what he does for a living. You're no closer to getting the Colonel's secret recipe than you are Jan's cam specs, and we'll all have to live with that. I'm fine with it. All I need is the dyno numbers.
The flip side is, and again this is my opinion, is that on these boards Jan can come off as a bit contentious. I guess all the constant BS can do that to you, but at this point I think he's well-established enough he doesn't need to defend himself so vigorously, but again that's my opinion. I went with Jan's tune, but seeing some of the back and forth on these boards, it wasn't without a wee bit of trepidation. After seeing him do the work, and work on other more complicated cars than my own, I was totally impressed. In person he's the nicest guy you could hope to meet, and VERY professional--comes off much better in person than on these boards. I wouldn't hesitate to go back to him.
I can't speak for/against other vendors, but having followed what Jan's done, I'm hard pressed to find anyone who has thought this all out with parts that work well and play well together, custom tuned it all, and posted results, who's as accessible as Jan is. So when things get nasty on the boards, I cringe and ignore it, sift through the insults, and usually end up learning a thing or two....
it does get mighty tiresome of the constant trash talking from internet keyboard warriors. All I have ever asked is for them to show some proof. What do I get in return? Constant garbage with nothing to back up what they say. I do my best to show our products work on the dyno and on the track. I have no beef with anyone who can back up what they say, it's even worse when some of the people attacking me are vendors posting under alias's
..... sad indeed.... such is the internet.Regardless I will forge on and continue to make cutting edge products..... because that's what we do at RMW
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,673
Likes: 2
Well........
I for one didn't see that coming . Seriously though I talked to Nitro back and fourth a few times. For what ever reason at some point he really got on an agenda that just never ended. He did have a lot of good idea's but they were just that, ideas because he would never show any results from anything he did for fear of getting slammed. I find this very ironic in that he was constantly screaming for Jan to show bla bla bla. At some point it just got old.
Why the hell would Jan ever give out the specs of his cam to Nitro??? The guy made it very clear he made and sold and ran a Mini business. What ever.
JIMINNI, sorry man but in my eye you are another guy who's postings started to change a while back as well. You claim to be Switzerland but you clearly now belong to a certain camp
.
Longboard
I for one didn't see that coming
. Seriously though I talked to Nitro back and fourth a few times. For what ever reason at some point he really got on an agenda that just never ended. He did have a lot of good idea's but they were just that, ideas because he would never show any results from anything he did for fear of getting slammed. I find this very ironic in that he was constantly screaming for Jan to show bla bla bla. At some point it just got old. Why the hell would Jan ever give out the specs of his cam to Nitro??? The guy made it very clear he made and sold and ran a Mini business. What ever.
JIMINNI, sorry man but in my eye you are another guy who's postings started to change a while back as well. You claim to be Switzerland but you clearly now belong to a certain camp
.Longboard
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
NAM has just gotten so out of wack it's sad 
I have talked to you, I think, and Jan personnaly and have had no problems. But lately there has been a distinct one sideness to everything, I mean I feel like a leper with my sig saying I have Alta and M7 parts I just think the playing field should be level for all vendors I think there is enough business for all the vendors out here Thanks, Jim
Well i'm sorry you feel that way Longboard. But if you look at my postings I have never really changed. I kinda stick up for the underdogs, if I can say it that way NAM has just gotten so out of wack it's sad I have talked to you, I think, and Jan personnaly and have had no problems. But lately there has been a distinct one sideness to everything, I mean I feel like a leper with my sig saying I have Alta and M7 parts I just think the playing field should be level for all vendors I think there is enough business for all the vendors out here Thanks, Jim
NAM has just gotten so out of wack it's sad I have talked to you, I think, and Jan personnaly and have had no problems. But lately there has been a distinct one sideness to everything, I mean I feel like a leper with my sig saying I have Alta and M7 parts I just think the playing field should be level for all vendors I think there is enough business for all the vendors out here Thanks, Jimit is level... NO ONE is stopping other vendors from making products
Who else is coming out with performance products for the R53?
BUELLER?
I appreciate the post.....
it does get mighty tiresome of the constant trash talking from internet keyboard warriors. All I have ever asked is for them to show some proof. What do I get in return? Constant garbage with nothing to back up what they say. I do my best to show our products work on the dyno and on the track. I have no beef with anyone who can back up what they say, it's even worse when some of the people attacking me are vendors posting under alias's ..... sad indeed.... such is the internet.
Regardless I will forge on and continue to make cutting edge products..... because that's what we do at RMW
it does get mighty tiresome of the constant trash talking from internet keyboard warriors. All I have ever asked is for them to show some proof. What do I get in return? Constant garbage with nothing to back up what they say. I do my best to show our products work on the dyno and on the track. I have no beef with anyone who can back up what they say, it's even worse when some of the people attacking me are vendors posting under alias's
..... sad indeed.... such is the internet.Regardless I will forge on and continue to make cutting edge products..... because that's what we do at RMW
Try ignoring the next blatant attempt to attack your stuff, just as an experiment, and see what happens--I'll bet you'll be pleasantly surprised. All you need to do at this point is tell us what you got, how it works, throw it on a car, and show the end result. The results speak for themselves; let people criticize, and if they're unwilling to back up there claims, simply give them the response that they deserve--none.
I've seen too many posts about people haphazardly putting CAI's, Headers, exhausts, etc only to have them dyno less than stock. We know your stuff is well thought out, and it works well and plays well together, and the numbers back it up. Ignore the flames, and throw that out there every now and then, and people will get the message. I did (and I wish I would have sooner, I could have done things quicker, better and cheaper), but it would have been simpler and quicker for me to come to that understanding with a bit less fighting on the boards.
Again, just my 2 cents, from someone who is by no means an expert, but is trying to get as much performance out of my car as I can...
Jan, with all due respect, and take this as my 2 cents worth, I really think your past needing to defend yourself so vigorously when someone spews nonsense on these boards. You've established yourself, you're a known commodity, and enough people respect what you do that you're really beyond that BS; don't feed the trolls, we all know better. You're not starting out anymore, your there. There are too many people who will chime in with what RMW can do if someone starts taking potshots; you've more than arrived--I personally believe you can pretty much stand above the fray, and do just fine--in fact I think you'll come out looking even better.
Try ignoring the next blatant attempt to attack your stuff, just as an experiment, and see what happens--I'll bet you'll be pleasantly surprised. All you need to do at this point is tell us what you got, how it works, throw it on a car, and show the end result. The results speak for themselves; let people criticize, and if they're unwilling to back up there claims, simply give them the response that they deserve--none.
I've seen too many posts about people haphazardly putting CAI's, Headers, exhausts, etc only to have them dyno less than stock. We know your stuff is well thought out, and it works well and plays well together, and the numbers back it up. Ignore the flames, and throw that out there every now and then, and people will get the message. I did (and I wish I would have sooner, I could have done things quicker, better and cheaper), but it would have been simpler and quicker for me to come to that understanding with a bit less fighting on the boards.
Again, just my 2 cents, from someone who is by no means an expert, but is trying to get as much performance out of my car as I can...
Try ignoring the next blatant attempt to attack your stuff, just as an experiment, and see what happens--I'll bet you'll be pleasantly surprised. All you need to do at this point is tell us what you got, how it works, throw it on a car, and show the end result. The results speak for themselves; let people criticize, and if they're unwilling to back up there claims, simply give them the response that they deserve--none.
I've seen too many posts about people haphazardly putting CAI's, Headers, exhausts, etc only to have them dyno less than stock. We know your stuff is well thought out, and it works well and plays well together, and the numbers back it up. Ignore the flames, and throw that out there every now and then, and people will get the message. I did (and I wish I would have sooner, I could have done things quicker, better and cheaper), but it would have been simpler and quicker for me to come to that understanding with a bit less fighting on the boards.
Again, just my 2 cents, from someone who is by no means an expert, but is trying to get as much performance out of my car as I can...
now that certain vendors have lost some of their alias's and the other main talker is gone.... I imagine it will be quite quiet around here until their new alias's show up
thanks for the good advice.... I'll work on it
Jan, with all due respect, and take this as my 2 cents worth, I really think your past needing to defend yourself so vigorously when someone spews nonsense on these boards. You've established yourself, you're a known commodity, and enough people respect what you do that you're really beyond that BS; don't feed the trolls, we all know better. You're not starting out anymore, your there. There are too many people who will chime in with what RMW can do if someone starts taking potshots; you've more than arrived--I personally believe you can pretty much stand above the fray, and do just fine--in fact I think you'll come out looking even better.
Try ignoring the next blatant attempt to attack your stuff, just as an experiment, and see what happens--I'll bet you'll be pleasantly surprised. All you need to do at this point is tell us what you got, how it works, throw it on a car, and show the end result. The results speak for themselves; let people criticize, and if they're unwilling to back up there claims, simply give them the response that they deserve--none.
I've seen too many posts about people haphazardly putting CAI's, Headers, exhausts, etc only to have them dyno less than stock. We know your stuff is well thought out, and it works well and plays well together, and the numbers back it up. Ignore the flames, and throw that out there every now and then, and people will get the message. I did (and I wish I would have sooner, I could have done things quicker, better and cheaper), but it would have been simpler and quicker for me to come to that understanding with a bit less fighting on the boards.
Again, just my 2 cents, from someone who is by no means an expert, but is trying to get as much performance out of my car as I can...
Try ignoring the next blatant attempt to attack your stuff, just as an experiment, and see what happens--I'll bet you'll be pleasantly surprised. All you need to do at this point is tell us what you got, how it works, throw it on a car, and show the end result. The results speak for themselves; let people criticize, and if they're unwilling to back up there claims, simply give them the response that they deserve--none.
I've seen too many posts about people haphazardly putting CAI's, Headers, exhausts, etc only to have them dyno less than stock. We know your stuff is well thought out, and it works well and plays well together, and the numbers back it up. Ignore the flames, and throw that out there every now and then, and people will get the message. I did (and I wish I would have sooner, I could have done things quicker, better and cheaper), but it would have been simpler and quicker for me to come to that understanding with a bit less fighting on the boards.
Again, just my 2 cents, from someone who is by no means an expert, but is trying to get as much performance out of my car as I can...
Great advice
.This isn't the the first time he has heard this
. I've been pulling him off the fence for two years now. Like a dog that spots a cat across the street. No matter how you yell at that dog it's not going to listen and it "will" kill that cat .He is getting better though
. Remember, he is an ex MarineLB
Quick story, two cars nearly exactly the same in extent of mods (different manufacturers for a couple things): mine with RMW cam, the other with stock cam dyno'd same day, same dyno, near same conditions. My car put out less hp & less torque. I'm not sure I buy the "knowing how to tune the cam..." comment. My butt dyno says there's a before/after difference but the numbers don't lie. Thoughts?
I too thought he had a lot to offer and we sorta bent the rules for quite a while with background conversations going on with warnings and advice. We bent over backwards and it was not a snap decision nor any type of retribution. I knew that a lot of folks would point the finger at me and cry "biased", "protecting RMW" and stuff like that. The worst part of being a mod is occasionally haveing to be the hatchet man, but alas this is the lot I drew.
So hows that cam, one day I need to get me one.
So hows that cam, one day I need to get me one.
Quick story, two cars nearly exactly the same in extent of mods (different manufacturers for a couple things): mine with RMW cam, the other with stock cam dyno'd same day, same dyno, near same conditions. My car put out less hp & less torque. I'm not sure I buy the "knowing how to tune the cam..." comment. My butt dyno says there's a before/after difference but the numbers don't lie. Thoughts?
Have you performed compression /leak down tests?
You haven't followed any pattern to get repeatable results. Using different dyno's for testing gives you incomplete data to compare it against.
The cam works, it's been tested over and over. I have no doubt about it.
Well i'm sorry you feel that way Longboard. But if you look at my postings I have never really changed. I kinda stick up for the underdogs, if I can say it that way NAM has just gotten so out of wack it's sad I have talked to you, I think, and Jan personnaly and have had no problems. But lately there has been a distinct one sideness to everything, I mean I feel like a leper with my sig saying I have Alta and M7 parts I just think the playing field should be level for all vendors I think there is enough business for all the vendors out here Thanks, Jim
NAM has just gotten so out of wack it's sad I have talked to you, I think, and Jan personnaly and have had no problems. But lately there has been a distinct one sideness to everything, I mean I feel like a leper with my sig saying I have Alta and M7 parts I just think the playing field should be level for all vendors I think there is enough business for all the vendors out here Thanks, JimThere is nothing wrong with with what's on your car. As you know, I too like the underdog and have backed you up before as you know.
I'm a firm believer that our cars are just that, ours and we should be able to do what ever makes us happy. Hell, I've done things to my car that Jan disagrees with but in the end it's my car.
I can understand how some people see the RMW army as a little crazy at times. I feel a little responsible because I was first to beat the RMW drum. At the end of the day they are just very happy customers.
The thing I notice most when other vendors (not naming names here) are getting hammered is it is usually from some one who has or has had a product from that vendor. The RMW hatters are always guys who have 0 experience with RMW products. Makes ya think.
Bryan
I too thought he had a lot to offer and we sorta bent the rules for quite a while with background conversations going on with warnings and advice. We bent over backwards and it was not a snap decision nor any type of retribution. I knew that a lot of folks would point the finger at me and cry "biased", "protecting RMW" and stuff like that. The worst part of being a mod is occasionally haveing to be the hatchet man, but alas this is the lot I drew.
So hows that cam, one day I need to get me one.
So hows that cam, one day I need to get me one.
it's simple... no 2 cars are alike. You can't compare your car to another. You compare it to the before and after. Last time you posted a dyno chart you could see how lean the car was running. Did it damage something?
Have you performed compression /leak down tests?
You haven't followed any pattern to get repeatable results. Using different dyno's for testing gives you incomplete data to compare it against.
The cam works, it's been tested over and over. I have no doubt about it.
Have you performed compression /leak down tests?
You haven't followed any pattern to get repeatable results. Using different dyno's for testing gives you incomplete data to compare it against.
The cam works, it's been tested over and over. I have no doubt about it.
What I'm saying is "my car put out less hp & less torque" than a car without a cam that's running the same equipment. Cam cost + install cost to net less doesn't make me feel so hot & I think my concern is valid, hence me asking the question. My car spends 20-25 days/month in the shop getting more modifications so me driving it around isn't the case. Miles on car from May dyno (with bad data) to August (new data) appx. 500mi.
Thanks Nate. Like I said, not asking for details but if that was the case then "it is what it is".
Ummm....no. The reason for the previous dyno plot was a defective tail pipe probe causing erroneous data. I dyno'd here in Fresno 30-days ago for data-testing only & then again this past weekend. Yes I agree that no two cars are the same but dude, 'wow' ...your answer of "the cam works, it's been tested over and over" is supposed to make me feel better? I'm not attacking you & as I told you directly I'm still happy with my throttle response which seems (via butt dyno) to have improved.
What I'm saying is "my car put out less hp & less torque" than a car without a cam that's running the same equipment. Cam cost + install cost to net less doesn't make me feel so hot & I think my concern is valid, hence me asking the question. My car spends 20-25 days/month in the shop getting more modifications so me driving it around isn't the case. Miles on car from May dyno (with bad data) to August (new data) appx. 500mi.
Ummm....no. The reason for the previous dyno plot was a defective tail pipe probe causing erroneous data. I dyno'd here in Fresno 30-days ago for data-testing only & then again this past weekend. Yes I agree that no two cars are the same but dude, 'wow' ...your answer of "the cam works, it's been tested over and over" is supposed to make me feel better? I'm not attacking you & as I told you directly I'm still happy with my throttle response which seems (via butt dyno) to have improved.
What I'm saying is "my car put out less hp & less torque" than a car without a cam that's running the same equipment. Cam cost + install cost to net less doesn't make me feel so hot & I think my concern is valid, hence me asking the question. My car spends 20-25 days/month in the shop getting more modifications so me driving it around isn't the case. Miles on car from May dyno (with bad data) to August (new data) appx. 500mi.
that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A/F readings that are "faulty" as you say
a/f can be all jacked up if it's "faulty" but your hp/tq graph will be smooth
your car was detonating big time
you might want to take a look at your dyno from LA again. Talk to some tuners and ask them about the hp/tq graph
that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A/F readings that are "faulty" as you say
a/f can be all jacked up if it's "faulty" but your hp/tq graph will be smooth
your car was detonating big time
that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A/F readings that are "faulty" as you say
a/f can be all jacked up if it's "faulty" but your hp/tq graph will be smooth
your car was detonating big time
Note: You don't need to use caps with me. I'm being perfectly civil, asking a valid question & would thank you for not yelling.
Whatever dude. I'm talking about the completely re-tuned final result with stoich-like a/f & you seem to be stuck on an old story that I'm not even talking about. For the 3rd time...what I'm saying is "my car put out less hp & less torque" than a car without a cam that's running the same equipment. I understand that no two cars are alike, but if your strong argument is "the cam works, it's been tested over and over" then it's safe to assume (by your written logic) that a RMW cam should be out producing a stock cam. Even if I was positive 2hp that'd be cool, taking steps backward isn't what I had in mind.
Note: You don't need to use caps with me. I'm being perfectly civil, asking a valid question & would thank you for not yelling.
Note: You don't need to use caps with me. I'm being perfectly civil, asking a valid question & would thank you for not yelling.
Also, why won't anyone from the Fresno dyno show their dyno sheets?
Feel free when you come to LA to let me know> I will gladly refund your money on your cam and install your stocker back in for free
Better yet... here is what I will do.... We take your car to the dynapack put it on the dyno and dyno it. THen put your stock cam in and dyno it again so everyone can see the results. I'll pay the fees
Vendor & Moderator :: MINI Camera and Video & c3 club forum
iTrader: (6)
So pre RMW cam you had more HP and Torque? I'll be getting the cam installed when he gets them back in stock--maybe you want to go back to stock and sell yours??
Wow now that's a deal you can't refuse!
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
ahhh the results of going to a lessor tuner. LOL congrats!
EDIT: also, Fracky, Take Jan up on his offer. Have the MANUFACTURER of the CAM you had a guy who plays with software for fun try to tune actually TUNED by the person who made it. See what happens. If it doesn't work out. You can preach to all of NAM. However, if you are wrong, you have made a grave mistake and need to apologize.
I am more than tired of the BS I have seen on this board for the last 5 plus years. I told you so get's Really REALLY old.
I say it it all the time, and I'll say it again.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
EDIT: also, Fracky, Take Jan up on his offer. Have the MANUFACTURER of the CAM you had a guy who plays with software for fun try to tune actually TUNED by the person who made it. See what happens. If it doesn't work out. You can preach to all of NAM. However, if you are wrong, you have made a grave mistake and need to apologize.
I am more than tired of the BS I have seen on this board for the last 5 plus years. I told you so get's Really REALLY old.
I say it it all the time, and I'll say it again.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
Last edited by Tüls; Aug 26, 2008 at 11:24 PM.
At a recent dyno day, I can attest that cars with the same basic mods were ALL OVER THE MAP in terms of max tq, max hp, and the dyno plots. In some cases plus or minus 10-15HP or more. Individual cars are that different. This is as big as the contribution of most mods except pulley and head and a few others... so it's illogical to compare dynos of two different cars with two different cams and suggest it means ANYTHING. Gotta be a before and after in the same car...
exactly. there were a few cars with teh same mods, minus the cam make 12hp more than mine. There were a few cars with even less mods (stock head) make 15hp less than mine. Trust me, watching one come that close makes you second guess your purchase but as has been said, it's not like I own that car. I own mine. I chose to get teh best out of mine that I could....doesn't matter the number someone else put down since I'm not driving their car
exactly. there were a few cars with teh same mods, minus the cam make 12hp more than mine. There were a few cars with even less mods (stock head) make 15hp less than mine. Trust me, watching one come that close makes you second guess your purchase but as has been said, it's not like I own that car. I own mine. I chose to get teh best out of mine that I could....doesn't matter the number someone else put down since I'm not driving their car
of course his exhaust made yours seem quiet
"but I do hate you because you are 99% right"
Jack's was an '04. So much for '05 and '06 being stronger right? (then again, I asked you NOT to tune for peak numbers but a flat torque curve instead. Jack wanted that magic too fiddy
)