OK, I'm 100% sure.

Brian or Randy, please return my calls so we can discuss the problem I found. I've tried phoning and e-mailing the shop.

Thanks!

 

You have a PM.

 

Randy phoned me. Thanks Brian.

 

I have just finished reading through all of the thread...

We have discovered the issue of rubbing on Steve's car - it has to do with the factory tolerances from car to car which caused some rubbing on the unibody itself. We are sending him a new set of bearing blocks which give a bit more clearance, and we have changed the design slightly to incorporate this additional clearance in all bars going to customers.

onasled talks about a part missing - it isn't. I had a long conversation with onasled about this issue. The part in question is #5, and it is supposed that the bolt will be subjected to force that could cause issues without the #5 being in place on the inside as well as the outside of the endlink. This is absolutely not the case. The bolt, once torqued, is not subjected to load, and will not shift. The locatation is determined by #5, and the bolt goes through the heim, then the locator (#5) and is held in place with a flat washer on the heim side and a lock washer on the nut side.

Here's an example of how this works - if you look at any slotted part that is held with a bolt, once the bolt is torqued, the part does not move. Another example is the belt tensioner. There is play in the bolt hole, but once the bolt is torqued, the tensioner does not move even though there is a void - the parts are held by the torque of the bolt.

If anyone is uncomfortable with this, we can of course supply two extra #5 pieces at a small price.

We did do FEA on the part after the desgin was completed. It determined several of the parts bend schedules.

jlm - if you change the endlink position via the spline, it has the same effect of changing the length of the droplink, which will determine preload. The benefit here is adjustment beyond the piont of maximum extension of the droplink. I hope that makes sense.

As you can see, this bar is absolutely beautiful, and we are extremely excited about it. I will gladly answer anyone's questions about it - feel free to contact us here at the shop. Brian, who is currently in school for automotive design, or myself would be glad to help.

Hope that helps!

Thanks,
Randy

 

OK, I wanted to talk to Randy before posting what I found with regard to the noise I was hearing from the rear sways so he/we could figure out the best fix. First, before anyone starts thinking that there is something wrong with his new swaybar I want to say I stick by my original post stating that IMHO the quality and adjustability is TOP NOTCH. My car is the only car we are aware that is having a clearance issue which is most likely due to Mini’s manufacturing tolerances and not Randy’s. Regardless, Randy is going to make the changes necessary to ensure perfect fitment for everyone … even though this problem has only surfaced on one car. Props to him and his company.

Now I’ll let you know what I found to be the source of the creaking sound. I’m actually surprised no one suggested it because it now appears that some swaybars by other manufacturers have the same problem (although I’m not aware of them providing a fix to suit everyone’s car). The bar was actually making contact with the floor pan right inside the bearing block on the right side. As the bar rotated against the body and intermittently created the creaking sound I was chasing. To confirm this was the source of the problem I re-torqued the subframe and applied Moly grease to the area making contact and took it for a test drive. No sound. And I mean no sound. Not from the droplinks, not from the bar, or anything associated with Randy’s swaybar. Removing 1mm from the bottom of the bearing block should eliminate the bar contacting the floor plan and the problem is solved. No big deal and Randy’s all over it.

Also, I don’t think the flat washer versus slide washer on the inside of the upper droplinks is an issue. I’ve noticed during disassembly and assembly that the endlink is actually biting into the flat washer leaving two distinct marks. These lead me to believe they are sufficient to hold everything in place. I guess if you’re still in doubt you could talk to Randy about buying a couple extras and installing them, but I suspect it would be over kill.

Bottomline is there are almost always some improvements that can be made to new products when they're released. The good news for all of is is that Randy stands behind his products and makes these refinements.

 

Okay,
Now that Randy and Steve have chimed in, I can as well.

First let me give you my 3 day impression of the bar. It is absolutely top notch, b*ll's to the wall performance oriented. For those of you looking for the ultimate in adjustability, design, and performance this is where it is! I came from one of the industry standards (Alta) to Randy's bar. The smoothness of turn-in, predictability of what the rear end is gonna do is immensely better. Is the Alta bad? No not for $150, but as the saying goes, the ends justify the means, and the $450 is justified. I have pushed the car to 8-9/10ths a few times since having the bar installed. I can confidently say I can decide when, and if I want the back end to come around. No snap oversteer, no excessive, front wheel drive understeer. Just great control.


In regards to adjustability. I have played with the stiffness position only a little already. Running where Randy put it ~300% stiffer than stock, and all the way stiff (~350% stock). It isn't overly harsh, it just adds to the amount of oversteer I am able to get out of the car with decreasing effort or throttle lift.

Finally, in regads to the "issues" everyone on the thread has had with the design and the actual product. I think it is foolish to be armchair quarterbacking Randy on this one. All you have to go on is a non-exploded CAD diagram to say "parts" are missing. You have the designers word that there are no parts missing. You have him on record as saying that all the engineering has been thought out fully and tested. I think we all need to relax a bit. Remember who we're talking about here. No he isn't Moses, but Randy is one of the top guys in the MINI tuner community. My interactions have been no-bull and honest, even before I spent dollar one with Webb Motorsports.

Is it perfect? Obviously not as is evidenced by what Steve has experienced. But what is? I can tell ya' the Alta isn't either, as when it was removed from my car, rubbing was evident right where Steve was getting rubbing with the Webb bar!

Is this the price of being an early adopter ? I think so.

Do I think the bar is worth the price of entry and the possibility of minor design tolerance variance, and subsequent needs to refine the product or design? An emphatic YES!!

Ultimately, if you have issues with some aspects of this system, WITHOUT ACTUALLY HAVING RIDDEN/DRIVEN A CAR WITH THE BAR INSTALLED, then don't buy it. I for one love it. I don't regret the hole it has created in my checkbook, and will continue to support it to those who are interested.


My 2 cents.

 

Take it easy Joel..., no one is attacking Randy here, or this product for that matter. Some of us saw what we felt was a missing part and had a discussion about it.

 

jfunckmd,

You write about the new bar being smoother and less prone to snap oversteer - my words. Do you have Randy's bar set softer than your previous Alta? I'm trying to qualify what I read...compare apples to apples. Can you explain in more depth?

Thanks,

Michael

 

Onasled-I know you and the others here aren't meaning to directly "attack" Randy. But after pouring so much of his time into this and then to have people question the design without actually seeing a bar in person, let alone driving a car with it installed, is a bit silly. That is what provoked my response. In the end we are all here out of an interest in this strange little car, and going fast in it. We need to support those putting the time and effort and blood, sweat, and tears into making it possible to do that. I am not talking about blind admiration, just an ounce of restaint in criticisms.

 

Michael-I have the bar setup about as stiff as the Alta at its stiffest setting. Comes out to about 300% +/- 10% of the stock stiffness. The WMS will go to ~350% stock. With the Alta I noticed that when I tried to provoke oversteer, with mid turn-in throttle lift etc, I could do it but it was not a smooth release. At varying efforts it would release unexpectedly. With the WMS I feel that I can predict better when the back end is gonna come around, how much lift/ throttle corection is needed to get the response I need. Now granted, I have only had the darn thing for less than a week and these are my initial impressions. I still have yet to get on the track with it or even autocross it. That should be this weekend hopefully! Also bear in mind that I am not completely unbiased, in that I DID buy one and so I may be looking for something to justify the cost that may not be there. Until someone drives a car with the WMS and then one with say an Alta bar in series, on the same track, and has no financial interest in the ouctome, "objective" data will be hard to come by. Of course anecdotal improvement is what drives 99.9% of all the performance part/mod industry anyway. Just look at the success of the Plasma Booster!!

 

Okay, thanks.

 

Not sure how to reply to this, so I'll just post this cartoon face .....

 

Just for the record, it's NOT Steve's car ... It's mine!

 

Busted!

 

Oh man

See you two tomorrow right??

 

 

Hey guys, thanks for all the discussion.

I ordered my WMS sway bar a weeks ago, it hasn't shipped yet, and after reading this thread (creaking problem), they're probably making the changes before sending it out, which is great.

Anyway, has anyone installed one in a MCSC? I'm planning on using a saws-all to cut the old sway bar. I then shouldn't have to drop the sub frame.

Never having done this before, is it really necessary to remove the struts for this install? That may be a dumb question.

I've read the link on WMS web site about rear sway bar install. Would be nice to have pics for install specifically for this sway bar.

 

Not a silly question at all - I'm not much mechanically-inclined, and had I not been through a rear sway install myself, I would have a hard time envisioning the process, even with all the helpful photographs and instructions out there.

For my H-sport bar install, removing at least one of the two rear struts was necessary to pull out the OEM bar and insert the H-sport, due to the curvature of both bars. Since you're just cutting out the OEM bar and replacing it with the WMS Extreme that has no bends, I am inclined to believe that you will not have to remove the struts at all for your install. Randy or Brian will have to correct me on this statement if I'm wrong.

 

When Brian installed mine ... oops, Peggy's, he removed the right rear strut, but I believe that was only so he could move the bar far enough to the left side to cut it. It's a pretty tight fit in there

 

Yeah I think removing at least one strut is nedded to get the stock bar extended out one wheel well far enough to cut it with the sawsall. I had Randy drop my subframe as I didn't really want him to cutout the Alta bar that was in there. It isn't hard to drop the strut though. Just 2 top bolts and I think just one bottom bolt and it will pop right out.

As far as shipping give Randy a couple more days. He is doing a bit of fine tuning on a couple of points, at least the last time we talked. Also being gone last weekend to a PP and getting back at 4am Monday I am sure put him in the dog house with his wife

It is well worth the wait.

 

We will have all of the bars shipping on Monday - we did fine tune the mounts by 1.8mm due to one car that exhibited a rubbing issue. It was fine on five other cars - gotta love the MINI!

You will need to remove one strut - two 13mm head top bolts and one 21mm head lower bolt - to gain access to the stock bar where you need to cut it.


This is the lower 21mm on the strut.

On the convertible, there is a pain in the butt center bolt on the subframe that requires some tricky manipulation to get at, so if you don't want to save your stock bar, I highly recommend leaving the subframe in place on the convertible.

On MCS coupes, there are two outer subframe bolts (16mm heads) and two inner subframe bolts (16mm heads).

Here's the inner bolt:


Hope that helps! Now I have to go shopping at the mall (big sales apparently) with my wife to make up for the 4am show on Monday!

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks!
Randy

 

If you are using a saws-all, you may not need to remove any of the the struts. I removed one of the struts to free up room so i could fit the pipe cutter in there, but saws-alls are small, so you may bot need to.

 

Well, I don't have my WMS sway bar yet, but yesterday I managed to remove the stock sway bar on my JCW MCSC without removing the struts. Didn't have to drop the sub-frame. I took pics, hope these help others. The whole removal process was about 30 minutes. The pics show the angle of the sawsall. This is the drivers side. Let me know if these pics make sense.

 

Not too sure of the reason for cutting the stock bar, besides maybe saving a few minutes... I have removed my stock bar twice, and other ones, in less than an hour. Plus, they serve as a nice upgrade for the Cooper drivers, and with that go for up to 50 bucks. Just something to think about before firing-up the reciprocating saw...

Randy, sweet bar!

 

Yeah, but if anyone needs one, I have about 200 of the stock Cooper S bars laying around...

It is nice, because you don't have to worry about alignment, and it saves quite a bit of time, probably 20 minutes or so minimum. We only charge an hour for the install on the WMS bar, whereas we charge two for the other bars.

Thanks for the pics!
Randy