Since this forum has been rather stagnant lately, I thought I would submit some observations that relate to the old Cooper vs. Cooper S issue. I ran in the National Tour autocross in Houston on April 2-3 (I drove poorly) and watched Mark Chiles win GS in his new Cooper S with limited slip and our local top HS driver win HS (and who, by the way, may well be very competitive at this year's nationals). The time differential was 1.741 sec. between the two. Given Chiles' proven elite skill level and the assumption that his time reflected the potential of his car, it would appear that the new upgraded S does not have any greater advantage than in the past over a well driven Cooper. From what I have seen at the regional/local level, the driver determines the winner of the Cooper vs. Cooper S competition.

 

I'm not quite sure where you're going, but a 1.7 second difference is HUGE. At the National level, a few tenths is huge.

If you're saying that a great driver in a Cooper can beat an average driver in a Cooper S, well that's nothing new. A great driver in a Cooper can beat an average driver in a Vette.
Now, given both the drivers are equal, then I can assure you that the Cooper S is faster, even more so now with the LSD. With the old 'S', it could actually be course dependant that would allow the Cooper to keep up, but not anymore.

Either way, you still cannot make full assumptions on any regular season event, National or not. There are way too many variables involved that can change things...tires for example...

Brian

 

I based my observations on the '04 Nationals. GS was won with a 106.884 total, HS with a 104.948. Furthermore, the time range in the top ten was 3.053 seconds in GS and 2.040 in HS. Granted, rain and other factors may have affected these differentials, but to say the top drivers were separated by "thousands of a second" is not accurate. Nor have I seen any evidence that the new Cooper S is faster, relative to the Cooper, than the old Cooper S. But of course, I may be full of crap!

 

On any given day, ANY given factors can screw with the results. Given that you haven't even seen a significant number of '05 Cooper S results, I'm not sure how you can base anything yet.
As for '04 Nationals, were you there? Because I seem to recall a drastic downpour and wet conditions for G Stock. No matter what H Stock had, I'm gonna guess it wasn't identical (can't remember), which is what would be required to even begin to compare results.

The only results I can give you, which are pretty darn accurate, is my comparison between myself and one of our instructors at a Level 3 school. We run against each other ALL of the time, he in a well prepped G Stock Celica, me in my '02. A couple of weeks ago, we ran my '05 against that same Celica, on a course we've both run or ridden on over 100 times, so we know it well. He used to be between .1 to .5 behind me on that course. Now he wasn't even within a second. On top of that, I drove his car as well and couldn't come within a second and I used to match my times in his car.
Are these perfect comparisons? Nope, won't claim they are, but their a lot closer than what you're basing results from. Last year on the same course, same conditions, same cars, and then again this year on the same course, same conditions, same Celica, new MINI.

As for thousanths? Well how about hundreths at the 2002 Peru Pro Solo, H Stock...
http://www.scca.org/_Filelibrary/File/2002PeruPro.pdf
Brian

 

It would not be prudent for me to get into a pissing contest with someone who has the equivalent of a 1000 psi bladder when it comes to autocross skills and knowledge. My only point was that based upon what occured in the Houston Tour, there doesn't seem to be a jump in the Cooper/Cooper S time differential. You've made a strong argument for the contrary. Cheers.

 

Sorry if it came off that way, but you're right, I tend to make sure I pee into the center of the target...

I'm just trying to argue against my own assumption being wrong, since initially there was some doubt. But now having driven mine only a couple of times, I'm thinking the reason you're not seeing anything significant yet is partially because of tire wars, early season weather, and lack of preparation. I'll just reserve to make my total judgement, right or wrong, for the end of the season. But even still, it may take a couple of seasons simply based on driving style with the LSD.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Brian

 

Atlanta NT

ds 89.249 (Jack Burns)
gs 89.151 (Chiles)
hs 91.763

just another data point

 

I have another datapoint I'd like to contribute...

G-Stock results from Saturday at the Atlanta National Tour:

Chiles MCS-LSD 46.179 <-04 ProSolo GS Champ (in non LSD car).

Boege MCS-LSD 46.199

Pilson Celica 46.210 <- 3 time Nat'l Champ car, different driver.

http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/Fil...tlanta-sat.pdf

MCS-LSD still not proven to be an overdog. Maybe will have to bring back out the 03 to find out for sure....