Any field reports on the new 2005 MCS LSD in GS ?
Results from Fontana looked good.
scca.com is down right now, otherwise I'd post a link.

 

Mine is here this weekend, I will let you know soon....

 

I can tell you for sure, the wheel spin issues of the pre-05 are history with the new LSD.

I have not prepped my 05 yet beyond an exhaust, ssr's/Hoosiers and Nology Hot wires, I'm working on the Koni's as we speak so I'll know for sure when those are installed. I weighed in at the El Paso Tour and the 05 is about 50-60lbs heavier than my 04 was, so, in the slaloms and corners, I THINK it MIGHT feel a bit more cumbersome and slower to react compared to the 04, BUT, each course is different so I can't say for sure yet with only 2 events under my belt and the winter rustiness of my driving, I'll find out in San Diego this weekend. However, with the LSD in place, I'd take my 05 unprepped over my fully tuned 04 to this point since there is now no wheel spin.

Either way, IMO, the Celica is still going to hang with the 05 MCS on SOME courses, only time will tell if they will hang with us on all courses. Who knows, I could be way off though.

Craig Wilcox

 

Hello Craig-

You mentioned that the '05 weighed more then the '04 - Could you please tell me :

1. How much does an '05 MCS with LSD actually weigh in auto-x trim?
2. What size wheels/tires were mounted when you weighed it on the SCCA scales?
3. Do you have a sunroof or any other heavy options?
4. Did you have alot of gas in the car at the time?

I have been researching/lurking on NAM and Mini2 for several months, while considering buying one myself, with a mix of all three uses (street, driver's schools & Auto-x) in mind. I am used to driving a Boxster S in AS & SS at the national level, so an MCS may be a real culture shock ... whatcha think ???

THANKS for the info!!
Robert H

 

Robert

Let me start off by saying that the MCS is a blast to drive, but, not sure that it will be as pleasing as the Boxster S for everyday top down driving, although, its certainly still a pleasure. I know I enjoyed my Boxster tremendously and it was only a measily 97 non-s.

Now for the details

Total weight with 1/8 tank of gas showing was 2530, I figure it had 2-3 gallons so 2510 would be the dry weight approximately. My 04 weighed in at 2456 completely empty, leaving it approximately 54 lbs lighter than the 05.

Here are the options for the 2 cars

2004- sport package/xenons/heated seats
2005- LSD/xenons/autoheadlights/autowipers/cruise control

Both cars had the Alta exhaust and 16X6.5 SSR comps with Hoosiers

One of the other guys at the El Paso tour had an 05 with LSD and no options, borla exhaust and SSR comps with less gas, his weighed in at 2510 if I remember so mine was basically in the ballpark of his.

I'd say go for the Mini, at just over 20K, its probably the most fun for the money, and, it looks like a million bucks too!!! Oh, and contingency money pays $500/$250/$125 for national tours and pro's so thats a little extra incentive if you attend some of the national events.

 

Pickin' mine up today... Stupid weather isn't going to make it easy to put mileage on this thing. I swore this one would never see salt.

Brian

 

Great info, Craig - thank you.

I was afraid the unladen weight would be closer to the '2679 lbs' quoted in the official brochure, so 2510 is much more to my liking !!

My Boxster S was still over the factory-quoted unladen weight at 2870 lbs on the SCCA scales at the Nationals a few years ago, even with lighweight wheels, light Hoosier tires, a light exhaust and no gas. I always grumbled about that (THANKS Porsche ), especially when Honda S2000's are factory-spec'ed at 2810 lbs but actually weigh in at 2630-2660 pounds in race trim.

One more question for you guys about the factory LSD -

The research I have done on the LSD indicates it is a legit piece - not some weak, slippy viscous/clutch job like the one in the Sentra SE-R. It is made by GKN (a long-time Mini supplier), and is a unique, torque-sensing hybrid (geared/conical clutch) design called the ViscoLok (a very misleading name).

It has a 30% lockup threshold, and apparently will spin the right drive wheel counterclockwise when you manually spin the left wheel clockwise with the car on a lift, just like a proper Torsen design.

This would all indicate that it should be AS effective as an aftermarket Quaife, though potentially quieter and just as reliable over the long term.

Does this all sound right to you???

Thanks again!
Robert
.

 

Robert

Yes, the LSD is VERY effective. I wouldn't hesitate, go for the Mini!!!

Brian

Glad to hear yours has arrived, maybe I'll see you in Atlanta!

 

Oooooh man! You've got me all excited now! Can't wait for the start of the season (here in NY).

 

Just returned from our regional autocross school. It was the first time I had autocrossed my MCS w/LSD. I was surprized at how much wheelspin I was getting. I mean, the car is crazy fast and had FTD until late Sunday (when R. Carpenter drove it), but I was just surprized at how much wheelspin I was getting. We had a stock 03 to compare and it did have much more, but coming from a '99 Miata with the torsen I guess I thought I was going to have NO wheel spin.

I guess it is a Limited-slip.

Anybody else experience more wheelspin than expected? I'm talking about in sweepers mainly, but it seemed like the inside tire would spin anytime it got light and full thottle was applied. Is there a certain style of driving that will help the LSD lock-up better?

CB

 

Well, yesterday was my first experience hammering the car around the course. It was only 40 degrees and I had well used Hoosier A3S03's that were clearly toast. But I did notice the same thing, I personally didn't feel the LSD did a whole lot. I'm getting ready to write a big apollogy to the many I told how great it was going to be.

Maybe if I drive the old and new cars back to back I'll notice a bigger difference, or when I have stickier tires on.

The course I drove is our school course that is the same all of the time, and I can run within thousanths over and over again. This course is VERY tight, mostly a first gear course for the '02-'04, being on rev limiter in a couple of spots and shifting to 2nd in a long sweeper to the finish. So needless to say, it would truly test the usefullness of this LSD.

This LSD is in no way even close to the Quaife, do not substitute it for STX if you don't have to.

The only other possibility is that mine is not working correctly. I will be able to give better feedback after this coming weekend, my first runs on better tires and a much larger course, hopefully with warmer weather.

Brian

 

Brian --

You picked your car up on 03/09 and auto-X it a few days later?
I was curious about the suggested 1200 mile do not exceed 4,500 rpm breakin period. Did you put that many miles on the car that fast? Or like many others have said to me don't worry about it after 500 miles?

TomA

 

Uh, was that 500 or 400?

I've been told by several mechanics the car doesn't even need to be broken in. The salesperson on my first Cooper S, an enthusiast and knew how I was going to drive it said "drive it just like you would all the time".

All that said, the car was sufficiently broken-in.

Brian

 

Brain, I'm with you. This limited-slip is no quaife. I was going to run G stock this year and possibly move to STX next year since it already had the LSD. I'm already thinking twice about that. I got soo much wheelspin, at times, that I was pretty sure in wasn't working correctly. It sounds like you experienced the same thing.

That being said, last years winning Celica was about a half second slower than the times I was running. Robert ran almost a second faster in the MINI on a fairly fast 33 second course. He took three runs in it and each one was faster than his fastest time in the Celica. Both cars were on brand new V710's. My MINI is 100% stock (except for V710's) and Roberts Celica is well develpoed.

Has anyone else autocrossed a MCS w/LSD? Wheelspin Issues?

Curt

 

Hmm. Perhaps Robert is regretting not co-driving with me now...

Anyhow, Craig should chime in, he's probably the only one here having autocrossed on good tires AND concrete, and maybe even warming temperatures. LSD's rely on what each wheel is doing, perhaps on a grippier surface the performance of the LSD is more substantial
The car did seem to plow worse in turns where my '02 did not, a sure sign something is working in mine (pile of straws somewhere, must grab at one )

Brian

 

Yeah, Robert called my MINI a "rocket ship" after he test drove his course with it on Saturday morning. He definetly likes it, but I think he wants to go to a faster class and try some rear wheel drive. He's a great driver (and instructor) and needs more of a challenge. He's got a sweet co-drive deal set up with another up and coming National Driver, Mark McCray. He's got complete use of the car all year. (C Stock '99 Miata) I think that's a great place for Robert. Lots of good drivers and fast cars in CS. (as long as you like Miata's. )


Sorry about the threadjack:

Back to the LSD shortcomings. I just expected more.

 

DOH! Well, I just put my order in for my 05 on Sat. I was hoping for a better showing from the slip then this :(. Maybe it will get better when it warms up? One can hope.

 

The car was fast, very fast. Like I said, RC's Celica couldn't match it. I just experienced more wheelspin than expected. I wish we could get more negative camber. That would help.

 

Well, Im coming out of a 2003 S. Ill be running stock, whatever that might be. Just wasnt wanting to hear wheelspin with the LSD option lol . I also have to order my tires.

 

I've now had the chance to watch the LSD cars run with non-LSD cars at 3 national-level events. It looks to me like the results so far suggest the LSD is not the Final Answer to winning G-Stock. Craig Naylor was leading the Tour on Saturday in a Celica -- he's a good driver usually running a (probably) overclassed `91 Integra -- and didn't exactly get blown away on Sunday. And even the MX-6 was respectably close after 2 days. Back in El Paso, Wiggy I think led on Saturday in an `04 and finished less than 0.2 second back over 2 days. Fontana Pro -- Darby in a Celica finishes only a tenth behind an LSD car.

Is the LSD an advantage, yes. Can you still smoke the tires, yes. Might the shorter second gear be a problem, on longer courses yes. Have the 2 best Cooper S drivers in the country -- Chiles & Garfield -- made an appearance yet (no disrespect to the west coast guys), no. When and IF Chiles and Garfield get a chance to run against some established Celica drivers (if there are any left with cars?), then we'll see. [Don't miss Atlanta.] It'll be a fun year as we all find out.

P.S. Based on San Deigo results, perhaps the regular Cooper is a D-Stock car?

Jeff Jacobs
(still looking for that hidden nitrous button)

 

Thanks for the feedback Brian. After my brief test drive of an 05 w/LSD I too felt it was no Quaife but coming from my well prepared 2003 STX MCS with a Quaife to a stock MINI was a shock in general. I think your LSD is working it's just not a Quaife but to be fair you will need to wait for the better tires and warmer weather and I probably shouldn't compare a Stock 05 w/LSD to my STX 03 w/Quaife.

 

I drove my 3 week old MCS with LSD in two events over the last two weekends. Both courses were on concrete and I was running Falken FK-451s, a 280 rated tire with just a little less grab then the Azenis. Temps at the first event were in the high 70s at least, and this past Sunday it was probably closer to a frigid (CA) 70 degrees. I had not autocrossed a Mini before, so I can't honestly compare mine to an earlier non LSD car.

Even the announcer commented on how my car was smoking the course. Unfortunately, it was not my driving that he was commenting on. I actually did get enough wheelspin to make very noticeable smoke; noticed by several observers. I understand now why Mini owners have discussed the importance of modulating the accelerator to control wheelspin. Furthermore, the saying about 'slow in, fast out' really applies to this car. I look forward to learning how to drive it properly.

Next Sunday I will get the opportunity to see how the LSD works with Ecsta 700s on asphalt and speak to some of the other drivers who just came back from the Tour in San Diego.

I'm also wondering what kind of gearbox oil was put into the new units with LSD, as there are special lubricants just for that option. Just a thought.

BTW, I would like to thank those who have contributed to this forum, as I learned a great deal while I was waiting for my Mini and it helped me in making some important decisions, especially in the wheel and tire department.

Tim

 

Hey guys, just parked the Mini in the drive here in Missouri from my 25 hour drive back from San Diego. A little tired so I'm going to make it quick.

Basically, none of the 05 MCS with LSD drivers in San Diego or Fontana thought that wheel spin was an issue any longer based on our experience over the 04 MCS without LSD. I wouldn't say my tires were fresh either, they were made in December 2003 and are at the end of their useful life with approximately 70 runs or so in San Diego. I experienced only minimal wheel spin on very very few area's of the course. Gearing seemed to play a bigger factor in my opinion, but, keep in mind, I am not the best opinion when it comes to evaluating since this is only my 3rd season.

Here is how I have seen things so far.

El Paso -Asphalt- no wheel spin on either day - 48 degree's 1 year 2 month old A3S04's with approximately 25 runs on them. DEFINITELY ran out of gear, I made an error and I guess I was too boneheaded to figure it out until my 3rd run on day 2 but I had probably 4+ seconds of 2nd gear rev limit, this caught me off guard, should have gone to 3rd, probably cost me .2-.5 seconds.

Fontana Pro - Asphalt-Noticed wheelspin maybe 1 run with cold tires, can't really rememer but it was not an issue, temp 55 degree's or so. I had 31 runs at the start of the event and 59 runs at the end of the event on the A3S04's. Gearing was not an issue on this very tight course. On the Prosolo starts, the LSD definitely helped tremendously.

San Diego - Asphalt - I did notice wheel spin on a downsloped turn around very briefly on 1 run, otherwise it was not an issue. 60 degree's or so and 59 runs at the start of the event and 71 runs at the end on the A3S04's. I definitely ran out of gear on 3 different places on course but not long enough for 3rd to be useful.

In summary, I think the LSD will help on some courses but not all. With the gearing changes and the additional 50-60 lbs that comes with the 05 MCS with LSD, I would say the 04 can still hang with the 05 depending on the course. I'd still take an 05 any day though simply because the LSD does help on some courses, HOWEVER, I still feel that the handling is somehow not as good as my 04, but, my Koni's are going to be here Thursday so I'll have a new report this weekend in Arkansas, especially if I can get some good rubber. Greg Reno, who finished 6th in HS at nationals in 04 driving his Mazda MX3 will be in Arkansas in his newly prepped 02 Celica so I'll at least have some good measurement of how things are progressing. Keith Marx will also be there in his Celica, I think he finished just behind me at the Peru Tour last year, although, that was one of my 1st events in the Mini so that reference won't mean too much.

I'll be in Arkansas this weekend for the National Tour, I REALLY need some new rubber. Anyone know where I can get some V710's???? I'm reluctant to buy any A3S04's since the 05's will be here in a couple weeks and the V710's seem to be a definite step up from the current Hoosiers.

So much for keeping it short.

 

Having seen what Craig said, I'd still think my LSD is done BROKE. But, the course I tested on, as I said, was a VERY tight postage stamp lot. Perhaps all of the tight turns and low speed combined with the cold A3S03's with 40 runs on them.
BTW, with all due respect to Jeff's compliments, Craig beat me at Nationals last year, so I'll take good notes from his feedback. The only difference is that I have more seat time in a MINI.
If it's a speed course, there's no reason Mark should be beating G Stock Cooper S's. But, he did beat me in the '02 Rome Tour tight course in the Cooper while I was in D STOCK in a Cooper S . That was my first determination that not being able to put the power down is a HUGE disadvantage.
Knowing Mark Chiles as I do now, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if HE doesn't see a big difference, myself and many others (probably because of my mouth) jumped the gun.

Unfortunately, this weekend is still going to be cold, but I'll be on "newer" R3S04's on a possibly hotter surface temperature, and a faster, less tight course.
Wait 'till you see all the graphic crap on this car, the CAR might look good this year...
Brian

 

Brian

I appreciate the prop's on the nationals, but, I realize anything can happen on any given event, so, I'd put my money on you any day. Once you and Chiles do a few events, and more importantly, do battle in Atlanta(I'm going to also try to join in on the fun and witness the dog-fight first hand), I'm sure you guys can give us a bit more experienced feedback on the 05.