In case you missed it, Helix is doing a group buy on their intercooler for $150 off retail. They say it fits the R60 without any bumper modification. Thread here:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...group-buy.html

 

I have no doubt it will "fit" insofar as it will bolt onto the car and you can put everything back together. The problem is that the grille faces on the R56-style cars and the R60 are very different. The lower grille on their cars seems to be a bit taller and sit a bit higher in the bumper than ours.

The problem, then, is about half of your intercooler is sitting behind the part of the bumper that separates the upper and lower grilles. And you will have a fairly large open area beneath the bottom edge of the intercooler.

I say this because that is exactly how the Forge R56 intercooler fits on my car. It is definitely better than the OEM intercooler, but I'm still leaving a lot of performance on the table due to the imperfect match between intercooler and grille face.

Having analyzed a lot of photos, I believe the Helix and Forge intercoolers are basically identical in their shape. The only way the Helix would work better than the Forge from a fitment standpoint is if the core and endtanks were shifted downward relative to the charge and discharge tubes.

I tried e-mailing Helix to get the specs so I could confirm any differences, but all I got in response were robotic marketing statements ("The Helix intercooler is more efficient than anything on the market . . . "). When I continued to press for dimensions I never got a response back.

Anyway, I would be hesitant to buy a Helix intercooler until I could see photos of the intercooler installed on a Countryman to see just how good the fitment really is.

 

I wonder if the Tyrolsport intercooler would end up being a better choice, though I don't know if it fits the R60. I think someone on here was trying to get an answer, but I don't remember if they ever got one.

 

I have the Tyrolsport intercooler in route with brackets made for the R60. I will update how the install goes.

 

Are the brackets a prototype or something? Where'd you get them?

$500 over the Helix is a tough pill to swallow though.

 

Kconner test fit the TyrolSport intercooler on his R60 and it fit fine. The only difference was they needed to make a pair of L-shaped brackets to bolt the intercooler up to the top of the radiator. It's a very minor modification.

In terns of performance, I believe the core volume of the TyrolSport intercooler is a tad less than the Helix, but the surface area is more than double. This is actually a very good thing. More core volume typically comes at the cost of pressure drop, while more surface area tends to increase cooling potential. So, taken together, the TyrolSport intercooler is a very efficient intercooler: Lots of cooling potential with minimal pressure drop.

If you read Maximum Boost by Corky Bell, essentially one of the industry leaders in all things turbocharging, his description of the ideal intercooler is basically the TyrolSport intercooler. Of course, as it turns out, Corky Bell worked with TyrolSport to develop their intercooler.

Myself and bmwr606 are planning to buy one. I sent an e-mail to TyrolSport asking about potential for a group buy. If you are interested, I will tell them that we've got at least three and can try to ferret out a couple more. It's an expensive piece, no doubt, but I think it is currently the best option on the market for our cars.

 

I watched the install video on you tube and I don't see how this intercooler is mounted??

 

Hujan, did you ever finish the air diverter you were working on? I was wondering if that made a significant difference.

For $500 I think I'm okay leaving a few horses on the table. I'm not looking to have the fastest CM ever by any means, and I'll probably stop engine mods after getting a tune.

 

No need to add more Hujan explained exactly why I purchased it.

 

I'm subscribed keep us informed.

 

I never did. Between labor and parts, it would be a couple hundred dollars. The fabrication guys I was talking to were willing to work with me if it was something they were likely to sell to others. But with the availability of other intercoolers, I'm not so sure there would be a ton of demand.

I definitely understand your logic. I go back and forth sometimes myself. I just wanted to save you a bit of disappointment if you were expecting the Helix to work perfectly with the Countryman.

 

Which, the Helix or TyrolSport?

The TyrolSport bolts up to the car at the factory locations (i.e., clamps welded to the charge and discharge pipes. There are also a couple of tabs on top that bolt up to a spot above the radiator.

The Helix does not bolt up to the car. Instead it is held in place by the hose clamps on the charge and discharge pipes. I believe it might also be kept in place by the inside of the crash bumper.

But I wouldn't let the lack of actual clamps on the Helix stop you from getting it if you are otherwise ready to buy it. Lots and lots of people have used the Helix intercooler without issues. If I had an R56, the Helix would probably be the one I'd buy. (That and an Akrapovic turbo-back exhaust and AEM or DDM Works scoop intake. )

 

Thanks for the feedback, Hujan. I'll no doubt be jealous of the Tyrol IC.

 

The conventional wisdoms that you mention about intercooler design in your first paragraph are largely true. How that relates to the Helix intercooler versus other designs on the market are debatable.

We, too, have read Maximum Boost, which is one of several sources that informed the design of the Helix intercooler. An intercooler design which makes frontal area the key criterion for performance, regardless of other factors like end-tank volume and flow, exposure of the ambient face to actual airflow, and optimal fin density, is not going to perform well in the real world. Look at the numbers: we and independent sources have published real test results, both in street datalogging, FLIR imaging and dyno testing. To my knowledge, no other intercooler marketer has published data. The proof is in the pudding: we designed the cooler to have the best balance between IATs, pressure drop, recovery rate and thermal mass. As always, people compare their coolers to ours, and we offer our cooler up for independent, fair comparative testing. We will even lend some of our very expensive test equipment for a comparison.

I have a vague recollection of you wanting me to send you the exact dimensions of our cooler. I'm sure you can understand, in light of the copies that have been produced of the Helix intercooler, why I hesitated to do so. I get those kinds of requests periodically, and I can't be sure what the motivation is for it.

 

Thanks for stopping by, Helix. I honestly appreciate the direct manufacturer-to-customer interaction that posts like yours provide.

I don't doubt that you folks make a great intercooler. (Indeed, as I said in my preceding post, had I an R56, I'd likely buy your intercooler over any others currently on the market.) Nor will I attempt to champion the TyrolSport intercooler over yours, not because claims can't be made, but because I don't have a dog in the fight.

I do believe that TyrolSport has done their own testing and have provided the corresponding figures on their website. To me, those figures suggest that if there is a difference between yours and theirs in terms of performance, it isn't significant.

Rather than debate the performance of the two intercoolers, the purpose of my posts was simply to raise the possibility that your intercooler might not be an ideal fit for the Countryman. I suspect this because I have the Forge R56 intercooler and it is not an ideal fit. In the past, I have seen it suggested that the Forge is a copy of your intercooler. If so, I fear that your intercooler will also be a less-than-ideal fit for the Countryman.

(Note that I express no opinion on the validity of the assertion that the Forge intercooler is a copy of your design.)


I appreciate the explanation. While I do wish that you had responded to my e-mail with that explanation, I don't hold any grudges. But one thing I would point out is that anyone looking to steal your design could simply buy your intercooler (perhaps at a discount during a group buy) and then have a copy to examine at length and reverse engineer. Thus, to the extent you believe you must avoid sharing the dimensions of your intercooler with potential customers lest your design be copied, I'm afraid that policy will do little to deter companies who are truly bent on stealing your design.

Let me say one more thing: When it comes to performance modifications, the Countryman platform is very underserved. This is particularly true of intercoolers, for which there is no intercooler specifically designed for the US version of the R60. With the introduction of the R61 Paceman, the desire for mods for the Countryman/Paceman platform will only grow.

Thus, there is a large vacuum for intercoolers specifically designed for our cars just begging for a solid company to fill it. If your current version of the intercooler is already a perfect fit for the R60, I urge you to be open about that fact by posting photos, just as you proudly and openly share the performance data for your intercooler.

But if, as I fear, your current version is not a perfect fit for our cars, then I would encourage you to design a unit specifically for the R60/R61 and become the first (and arguably best) maker of intercoolers for these cars.

In any event, regardless of what you folks decide to do, I appreciate the work you do for the MINI community in general and for stopping by this thread to chat with customers in particular. I wish much luck to you and your company!

 

This has been done (although not by Forge--they looked at our Solidworks drawings that we foolishly published prior to the release of our initial MINI intercooler). Clearly, this isn't ideal, but at least we get the sale of that particular unit. It's an unfortunate fact in this industry: you can't protect intellectual property in such a small niche--it's too difficult and expensive. Knowing that any good product is going to be knocked off, we might as well get some benefit from it: the sale of that unit. That's why, when you told me in your email that you already had a Forge intercooler, I didn't send you the exact dimensions. I didn't know who you were, what your motivations were. In a cryptic email, it's hard to tell the difference between a tuner and a law student.

 

Understood. It is a shame that things are bad enough that the only silver lining to being knocked off is the sale of one unit. Even so, it seems to me that you have to strike the balance between, on one hand, protecting your product, and on the other, providing honest customers with the information they need to make a decision to buy it.

For example, what assurances can you give Countryman owners that your unit works just as well in the R60 as it does the R56? Have you folks done any testing to ensure it provides the same level of performance on an R60 as an R56? If so, I imagine posting that data (and, ideally, pictures of fitment) would go a long way toward convincing R60 owners to buy your unit. Both pieces of information would drive sales and yet neither would facilitate you being ripped off by a prospective copy-cat.

Law, yes; student, no.

 

Man, you've got some time on your hands for a lawyer. We have not done a comparative performance test between the R56 and R60 chassis. At this time, it's probably not in the cards unless there's a sudden surge in demand by Countryman owners. That having been said, I'd be willing to lend a cooler to you if you were willing and capable of doing a proper, scientific, apples-to-apples comparison between the Helix intercooler and any of the others in the R60 chassis.

 

 

Excellent info exchange guys.

 

I type fast. Besides, what else do you expect me to do while I'm on the can?

That's a very generous offer. I guess a threshold question is what equipment I would need in order to conduct such a test. I'm not sure I'm equipped to do so, particularly if it would necessitate a dyno. (Unless you can help me get dyno access, of course.) Assuming it's practical, I'd be happy to lend my car to do a comparison of the Forge intercooler with yours.

Assuming I'm not able, does your offer stand for others on here who might be able to take advantage of the offer? I know there are some very forward-thinking, technically savvy Countryman owners on here (Theta and bmwr606 come to mind) who could probably do a solid test.

I've long believed there is a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem with the boldfaced part of your comment. While it's understandable that your company would not sink many resources in a project that does not have huge demand, you must also acknowledge that there will be little demand for your intercooler from Countryman owners without proof it is an effective option for the Countryman. I know you are not alone in that view and, like I said, it is quite understandable, but it does seem to result in a bit of a stalemate between customer and seller. (Unless, of course, I or someone else is able to take advantage of your offer to test the intercooler.)

 

Yes.

Only if that were true. The sad fact is that very few performance parts come with (real scientific) empirical data showing that they actually improve the performance of the vehicle. Even rational, intelligent buyers acquire parts that 'should work' but don't have any accompanying data. You yourself bought one intercooler on the blind faith that it improved performance, and are relying on conjecture and conventional wisdoms, not data, to infer that another intercooler performs better than the Helix in the Countryman. You clearly are a intelligent person who is genuinely interested in getting effective performance parts for your Countryman, yet you don't follow the boldfaced part of your comment regarding data and demand.

Your core message in this (very enjoyable--much respect) debate has been that the Helix intercooler is not good for the Countryman. To suggest that on a public forum without real supporting data is disingenuous. If articulate people on forum sites state opinions forcefully and consistently, they can become 'internet truths' that are widely accepted as facts. This is a disservice to the community. Instead let's agree that until real, empirical data on the performance of any intercooler in the Countryman is gathered, no one knows which intercooler performs the best in a Countryman.

 

Let me clarify a couple things:

First, I originally bought the Forge intercooler designed for the R60, only to find that it did not fit the US spec Countrymen because of the design of our crash bumpers. The option I was given was to exchange it for the R56 version, which I did. I had assumed that it would fit the car; as it turns out, the fit is imperfect. Thus, the fact I have a Forge R56 intercooler is a direct result of my failed attempt to purchase the lone R60-specific intercooler on the market.

Second, I have never suggested that the Helix intercooler is "not good for the Countryman." I have simply raised the question whether it is an ideal fit for the Countryman since there is no data on that subject. My hope was to make sure anyone who thought it would be a perfect solution went into the transaction with eyes wide open, lest they wind up with an imperfect intercooler like me.

But let me throw this back at you: Helix is openly encouraging Countryman owners to buy its intercooler "without real supporting data" that it is as effective on the R60 as it is on the R56, apparently on the assumption that the differences in the front-end designs of the two cars are immaterial. For a company that places such a high emphasis on actual real-world data, that strikes me as "disingenuous."

I am not necessarily advocating the TyrolSport intercooler over yours when it comes to the Countryman. But I have at least seen photos of the TyrolSport intercooler in a Countryman to know that it has as much or more direct exposure to ambient air than on an R56. From that, I think one can reliably extrapolate TyrolSport's data from the R56 to the R60. My point is simply that the same cannot be said regarding the Helix intercooler at this time. I remain hopeful that someone can take advantage of your generous offer to test the intercooler so that Countryman owners have the information they need to make an informed decision.

Let me also say that nothing in this exchange has changed my impression of your company: You guys are doing your best to provide high-quality parts for a small niche market and have nothing but the best interests of MINI owners in mind. As I said at the start, it takes a lot of fortitude to come on here and engage customers (or potential customers, as it were) directly. Good on you.

 

Meh. I'm bored. Good debate.

 

Hi Guys,

We just wanted to let you know that we are always available to answer any questions or concerns you may have about TyrolSport products. We wish Helix the best.

-TyrolSport