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A timing chain guide failure lead to a few "while i'm at its":
Installing new Thumper2r head, TPR 405 cam, and new intake, new timing chain set, and ATI Crank Pulley (2%).
Engine has just over 100k miles on it; no real issues until the timing chain went rattle-rattle.
I'm going to drop the oil pan to see what else is in there; I had some metal shavings in the filter housing.
For the experts on here: What do you think of these pistons/cylinders? I've never been this deep into a motor before. I was surprised at the amount of carbon built up on the pistons.
Is there anything I should do while they're accessible to clean them up? Is there anything here that's concerning/near failure that I should address?
I've already blown my budget (justified the head by doing the work myself rather than taking it in. I don't have time to do it, but the shop I use is 2-3 weeks out...). I don't really WANT to do more, but I also don't want to be tearing it down again anytime soon.
They don't look all that bad to me, but I'm more used to seeing engine internals from a naturally aspirated engine and not from forced induction. In the past, rule of thumb was if you build up and completely seal the top half of the engine, you will eventually blow the rings out of the bottom half.....in all my years of doing engines, this has been proven to me twice.
Now, on your 2% crank pulley, it better be a fluid dampened one and not a solid one piece style. The solid non dampened ones will cause oil pumps, crankshaft and rod bearings to fail a lot sooner than normal. Your car, your choice
Maybe someone else can chime in here with maybe something else to add
Look glazed to heck. Bad camera angle for it I fail to see any remaining cross hatch. I suppose clean em up and check the top lip, see what you got. All that being said I've done head gaskets on worse.
They don't look all that bad to me, but I'm more used to seeing engine internals from a naturally aspirated engine and not from forced induction. In the past, rule of thumb was if you build up and completely seal the top half of the engine, you will eventually blow the rings out of the bottom half.....in all my years of doing engines, this has been proven to me twice.
Now, on your 2% crank pulley, it better be a fluid dampened one and not a solid one piece style. The solid non dampened ones will cause oil pumps, crankshaft and rod bearings to fail a lot sooner than normal. Your car, your choice
Maybe someone else can chime in here with maybe something else to add
Bryan
Thanks Bryan!
Definitely a dampened bottom pulley. I'm too cheap to try and save $200 and take the chance on damaging my engine.
Turns out the timing chain guide wasn't the only source of my noise. Rod bearing for #1 was gone. 😳
Everything else seems solid. Not sure what caused, the failure. Crank pulley was the OEM damper in like new
condition. Would have thought that would effect crank bearing, not rod bearing.
So "while I'm at it" list now includes at least a new short block. I don't have time to fool with a machine shop. I'm going to pull this one and swap all my new, stuff onto a new, bottom end. Then, I'll put this one on a stand and save it for a winter project. I'll have a complete spare engine that I can assemble and sell at some point.
I had a pretty impressive 3 year run with no issues. Now we just rebuild it. Stronger. Faster. 😉
Finally finished the removal phase.
Will pull the SC and trans tomorrow, and begin cleaning and prepping everything for the new short block arriving this week.
Hope I, remember where everything goes. 🤔😳
Oh, and a Quaife LSD and new Southbend clutch kit found its way onto the "while I'm at it" list.
Hope the SC looks good, or I'm, gonna have to add a TVS to the list. 🤣
A work trip to Fresno followed immediately by my first bout of COVID slowed me down quite a bit, but it's back together and running!
To recap-a timing chain rattle from a stuck tensioner and broken guide turned out to also be a destroyed rod bearing. My full "while I'm at it" list became:
Remanufactured short block
Crank scraper
RMW baffled oil pickup/sump
Thumpr 2r head
Ported intake
TPR 405 cam
Cryo timing chain set
380 cc injectors
New 02 sensors
M7 heat shield blanket
New belt tensioner with poly bushings and limiter strap
ATI 2% crank pulley
Quaife LSd
SBC stage 2 clutch
New plug wires (had still been running the originals)
New valve cover (use a Torque wrench on the plastic valve cover kids-9#s is nothing, and they'll crack at 9.1#s 🤬
A little custom valve cover logo.
I've got one more "while I'm at it" in the mail-an Airtec top mount intercooler. I know there are very mixed opinions on the performance value, but it looks cool. 😊
I'm waiting on a cable to arrive and then will get on Adrian's calendar, for a tune. I'm still taking it easy for break in, and it's running rich enough to occasionally throw a code, so I can't really comment on performance improvements yet.
But I'm pretty pumped to have my car back together!
I hope that the 2% ATI crank pulley is a dampened style and not the solid version... otherwise you are going to end up doing rod and crank bearings again.
Other than that, can't wait for the results of the build to be reported
Looking good! I really like those wires, I recently replaced mine with some from FCP euro and they're noticeably longer than the originals, which makes the engine bay look messy.
Looking good! I really like those wires, I recently replaced mine with some from FCP euro and they're noticeably longer than the originals, which makes the engine bay look messy.
Thanks!
I was a little disappointed with the #1 wire--I may try to shorten it a bit. Generally pretty happy with the outcome. Ready to get it dialed in and broken in. It's hard not to hammer on it. 😁
I like the red wires as it jazzes up the engine bay and a throw back to the popular days when MINI had factory Blue ones as an upgrade. period correct. Cool thing is we have upgraded ones from BavAuto and they come in colors like yellow, blue(like the Genuine MINI ones), and red.
I think when its time i might do the upgraded red.
I hope that the 2% ATI crank pulley is a dampened style and not the solid version... otherwise you are going to end up doing rod and crank bearings again.
Other than that, can't wait for the results of the build to be reported
Bryan
have you had 1st hand experience with this happening?
Our serpentine system still has a built in dampner and testing showed its more than fine running solid light weight crank.. so after i researched the crap out of it i did an alta 2% lightweight crank over 2x years ago when I did my Sprintex sc and bvh and cam.. 20psi , full bolt ons and like I said 2yrs and over 15k miles , 0 issues.. matter fact I just inspected my cam and valve train as well as oil inspection and EVERYTHING looked as good as it did when i put it on 2yrs ago..
I won't argue that dampener is FAR more safe but a non dampened one is fine so long as you have a healthy engine.
I also didn't experience any odd vibrations or excess ca ING vibrations or noise AND I have pretty much everything performance suspension wise to have my car a dailydriving trackcar.
Last edited by MiniManAdam; Oct 5, 2022 at 06:33 PM.
have you had 1st hand experience with this happening?
.
not me personally, I put a PRW damper on my car.....but I have talked to a number of people that had the solid pulley on their car and they had issues....now whether it was due to the pulley itself, or other factors, I cannot tell you that....I just didn't want to take a chance with mine or have Greg have issues with his.....I'm sure results are going to vary between different people and different set-ups
not me personally, I put a PRW damper on my car.....but I have talked to a number of people that had the solid pulley on their car and they had issues....now whether it was due to the pulley itself, or other factors, I cannot tell you that....I just didn't want to take a chance with mine or have Greg have issues with his.....I'm sure results are going to vary between different people and different set-ups
Bryan
imo better safe than sorry but I was going after all the power I can and a crank 1/10th the weight , on our tiny weak little engines it actually did help it rev up faster..
I've read claims they've wrecked engines but Noone had shown any proof other than he heard from someone who heard from the grapevine.. i know factory uses dampened but factory also goes strictly for comfort driving. They want NO engine vibration , intake or exhaust noise ect.and sacrifice power AND sometimes durability in order to do those things to make the average customer who's never popped their hood belive that's best for the engine and car..
I say go lightweight crank AND LET ERR RIIIIIIIIIIIP !!!!
I'm with Adam on this one. Everything here is anecdotal without actual test results. Did the OEMs did their due diligence and install the dampened pulley for good reason? Without a doubt. But they have different motivations than we do as enthusiasts.
I too have run lightweight undampened crank pulleys on my vehicles for many, many miles without issue. As another datapoint, my first vehicle was a 1997 Golf GTI VR6 which came with a dampened crank pulley. I removed it for a lightweight pulley fairly on in my ownership and proceeded to put 70k aggressive street miles on. I followed that up with another 15k or so track only miles. The engine finally ate it; not because of bearing issues but because our *******es installed a polycarbonate oil cooler spacer. It served us well for a few races but promptly melted when we had an undiagnosed cooling issue.
+30k miles on my 500hp Z32
+30k combined miles on my R53s
I think it makes a lot of sense to the right kind of person to spend the $$$ on a dampened crank pulley. Especially for those that have a lot of money invested into their block. They'll likely be running MUCH higher horsepower and won't notice any improvement with the lightweight pulley and their budgets will tolerate the expense. As I see it, I can spend $300+ on a dampened crank pulley that costs essentially what a replacement block will cost, or spent $100 on the pulley and get small performance boost, and put the extra $200 towards a lightweight flywheel.
I generally avoid these discussions like the plague, and am going to regret responding here, but since it's in my thread...
This debate is pretty much worthless. Those who like the lightweight pulley are going to say "there's no proof that it causes failure." Those who don't like it are going to cite hearsay, or input from a few people who should have some credibility. Way at WMW is the first one that comes to mind. I've talked to him about the lightweight pulleys, and he's cited specific examples of cars his shop has worked on. He builds and races these cars, and runs a pretty popular/successful shop, so I give his opinion more weight than the average internet warrior who's evidence is mainly "mine hasn't failed yet."
The bottom line for ALL of us is that there's not going to be any scientific evidence (not that it sways anyone nowadays anyway). These are old, small-production number cars to begin with, with nowhere near enough demand to support R&D for new products, let alone anyone doing long-term testing to compare bearing wear of lightweight crank pulleys against OEM or aftermarket dampened pulleys. So run what makes you happy, and don't criticize those who disagree.
For me, it came down to this: NO ONE says that the ATI will contribute to bearing failure. Way doesn't sell lightweight pulleys, neither does RMW. It cost me ~$200 more, and I haven't seen data showing that a lightweight pulley adds measurable performance gains over an equivalent diameter ATI. I'm not gonna risk having to do the job again to save $200 bucks and eek out a couple of horsepower that likely only shows up in the internet dyno wars.
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I'm not gonna risk having to do the job again to save $200 bucks and eek out a couple of horsepower that likely only shows up in the internet dyno wars.
This is the argument that makes the most sense to me.
I generally avoid these discussions like the plague, and am going to regret responding here, but since it's in my thread...
This debate is pretty much worthless. Those who like the lightweight pulley are going to say "there's no proof that it causes failure." Those who don't like it are going to cite hearsay, or input from a few people who should have some credibility. Way at WMW is the first one that comes to mind. I've talked to him about the lightweight pulleys, and he's cited specific examples of cars his shop has worked on. He builds and races these cars, and runs a pretty popular/successful shop, so I give his opinion more weight than the average internet warrior who's evidence is mainly "mine hasn't failed yet."
The bottom line for ALL of us is that there's not going to be any scientific evidence (not that it sways anyone nowadays anyway). These are old, small-production number cars to begin with, with nowhere near enough demand to support R&D for new products, let alone anyone doing long-term testing to compare bearing wear of lightweight crank pulleys against OEM or aftermarket dampened pulleys. So run what makes you happy, and don't criticize those who disagree.
For me, it came down to this: NO ONE says that the ATI will contribute to bearing failure. Way doesn't sell lightweight pulleys, neither does RMW. It cost me ~$200 more, and I haven't seen data showing that a lightweight pulley adds measurable performance gains over an equivalent diameter ATI. I'm not gonna risk having to do the job again to save $200 bucks and eek out a couple of horsepower that likely only shows up in the internet dyno wars.
Please don't misinterpret my post as 'lightweight is the only correct decision'. I was sharing my viewpoint and experience for the sake of other members. It's also helpful to note that I am coming from the perspective of budget minis. Spending $300+ on a crank pulley would come out to about 10% of the total budget including purchase price of the vehicle for nearly all of my minis. Do I believe wear is accelerated with an undampened crank pulley? Yes, and it factors into my decision. I also don't believe that the the added wear will result in any negative outcomes during the life of the vehicle. In the rare chance that it did, $300 is more than the cost of a replacement engine (for me). The risk/reward calculation tells me its not worth the extra expense (to me). I'd simply rather spend that money on another improvement. Each person needs to weigh the risks and benefits and make the decision for themselves.
It's also helpful to note that I am coming from the perspective of budget minis.
This is an incredibly important distinction to make.
When your budget is a $3k car, and your replacement engine is $300, then taking the risk isn't a big deal. A lot of the people in this, forum are not DIYers and are paying shop rate for this work. They sure can't replace an engine for $300. They need that context when considering the options.
Please don't misinterpret my post as 'lightweight is the only correct decision'. I was sharing my viewpoint and experience for the sake of other members. It's also helpful to note that I am coming from the perspective of budget minis. Spending $300+ on a crank pulley would come out to about 10% of the total budget including purchase price of the vehicle for nearly all of my minis. Do I believe wear is accelerated with an undampened crank pulley? Yes, and it factors into my decision. I also don't believe that the the added wear will result in any negative outcomes during the life of the vehicle. In the rare chance that it did, $300 is more than the cost of a replacement engine (for me). The risk/reward calculation tells me its not worth the extra expense (to me). I'd simply rather spend that money on another improvement. Each person needs to weigh the risks and benefits and make the decision for themselves.
Update: Got my initial tune from @adriancl . I'm still in my initial 500 mile break-in, so I haven't hammered it (too) hard, but the car is running much stronger. The LSD is also making a difference! The trip home from my ice rink has a left turn into heavy traffic. Always before if I hadn't shut the nannies off, the traction control light would go crazy, and I would lose power. The other night it pulled strong through that hard start/turn.
I've got a P1498 code that comes on intermittently (typically coming off throttle from a hard pull--during heavy vacuum) that I need to sort out. I was hoping that it was an intercooler boot leak, but it didn't go away after the Airtec install.
Which brings me to the Airtec install.
The unit itself seems pretty stout, and I think it's going to work well (hard to judge an intercooler performance on a short testdrive when it's 50* ambient). But the install was MISERABLE. The front mounting bolt design was not well-thought-out, and getting the boots on was a nightmare. The hood seal is also pretty light material and seems to only be tack-welded, so when you are trying to push/shove/wrangle the boots on and get the mounting holes lined up, you can bend the crap out of the box. :(
Again, not sure how much, if any performance increase I'll see-I bought it mainly because I liked the look and design. But for the price, I expected a better install experience.
