R50/53 Save the 2002-2006 MINI Cooper!!!
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From: Colorado
I don't have a lot to weigh in on here except that as long as the discussion is civil I'm okay with it. If it becomes a bash-fest because you can't convince someone of your point then its time to move on.
As for R56 keep in mind that no auto manufacturer operates in a vacuum. They spend millions of dollars on focus groups, gathering feedback from owners, etc...all for the purpose of continuing sales for a vehicle. Some companies have been good at doing this and some not (ie - some of the domestic manufacturers...tell me again who thought the Aztec was a good idea
). BMW has traditionally done a decent job of improving existing lines and introducing new ones. Whatever their impression of the sales effects of these changes will be noticed one way or another and changes will be made. They are motivated to make changes that will increase market share, number of sales, etc.
Its easy for each of us to armchair quarterback their decisions but the decisions are much more complicated than we can imagine. In our daily lives I doubt we likely see the enormous impact of even a small change like headliner color. Who its sourced from, color consistency, fit, resistance to dirt, etc. add up to way to much information for us to handle given its not our job. At the end of the day they take all these input, roll them up, make a business case for the change, take owner and focus group feedback, factor in tooling costs, changes, impact to production schedules, training of personnel, and a thousand other things before committing to a change.
The changes they made going to the R56 were anything but shooting from the hip. They were very calculated. There is always the risk that they missed a key input that was a big one and spells doom for the current generation. That said you can rest assured that if they find an error they will be working to optimize the entire equation. This is a business and they have unbelievable levels of capital committed to the endeavor. In other words, they have too much to lose if they feel there is a slump and aren't working to resolve it...one way or another.
Now let's return to the debate and keep it friendly, entertaining, and helpful to others on the site.
Thanks!
Mark
As for R56 keep in mind that no auto manufacturer operates in a vacuum. They spend millions of dollars on focus groups, gathering feedback from owners, etc...all for the purpose of continuing sales for a vehicle. Some companies have been good at doing this and some not (ie - some of the domestic manufacturers...tell me again who thought the Aztec was a good idea
). BMW has traditionally done a decent job of improving existing lines and introducing new ones. Whatever their impression of the sales effects of these changes will be noticed one way or another and changes will be made. They are motivated to make changes that will increase market share, number of sales, etc.Its easy for each of us to armchair quarterback their decisions but the decisions are much more complicated than we can imagine. In our daily lives I doubt we likely see the enormous impact of even a small change like headliner color. Who its sourced from, color consistency, fit, resistance to dirt, etc. add up to way to much information for us to handle given its not our job. At the end of the day they take all these input, roll them up, make a business case for the change, take owner and focus group feedback, factor in tooling costs, changes, impact to production schedules, training of personnel, and a thousand other things before committing to a change.
The changes they made going to the R56 were anything but shooting from the hip. They were very calculated. There is always the risk that they missed a key input that was a big one and spells doom for the current generation. That said you can rest assured that if they find an error they will be working to optimize the entire equation. This is a business and they have unbelievable levels of capital committed to the endeavor. In other words, they have too much to lose if they feel there is a slump and aren't working to resolve it...one way or another.
Now let's return to the debate and keep it friendly, entertaining, and helpful to others on the site.
Thanks!
Mark
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
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I own and love my 05 R53. I looked at the ads for the 07 and then saw it at the dealership. HORRIBLE! They messed with perfection in my opinion... yes it has its kinks, but so what! it is well designed inside and out!
The new car looks so detroit it saddens me. Construction and repair costs changed the design as a salesman (and owner of an 07! told me).
Start inside, the drivers view: The speedo is bigger and now, instead of graciously bulging the dash, it breaks it! (one of its worst features). Then the controls, those *****? come on! Like someone said earlier, it started with a ferrari designer and ended with ford. OK, the seats are better. but that is it!
Outside: the lines have been butchered to death, the front looks silly, with the headlights poking out of a thin metal hood sheet. The classy rounded glass going all the way around the car is now broken, with plastic corner pieces! and areodynamic (according to the salesman) fins; what crap!
And what about the scoop... the scoop! it has no use whatsoever! it is fake, fake, fake. If you don't need it, don't use it and see what you have! What is it a ford mustang or a MINI?
Yes, the engine is more efficient and powerful; ... well what do you expect after 5 years on the US market, no improvements? Apparently not.
In a few years the 1st generation will be the one to have (for some it already is), just like many other brands talked about earlier. The 2002? it will hopefully re-encarnate in the 135i, which I am lusting over, but will not get... who wants a first try out?.... ME PLEASE! They will mess it up soon enough!
The new car looks so detroit it saddens me. Construction and repair costs changed the design as a salesman (and owner of an 07! told me).
Start inside, the drivers view: The speedo is bigger and now, instead of graciously bulging the dash, it breaks it! (one of its worst features). Then the controls, those *****? come on! Like someone said earlier, it started with a ferrari designer and ended with ford. OK, the seats are better. but that is it!
Outside: the lines have been butchered to death, the front looks silly, with the headlights poking out of a thin metal hood sheet. The classy rounded glass going all the way around the car is now broken, with plastic corner pieces! and areodynamic (according to the salesman) fins; what crap!
And what about the scoop... the scoop! it has no use whatsoever! it is fake, fake, fake. If you don't need it, don't use it and see what you have! What is it a ford mustang or a MINI?
Yes, the engine is more efficient and powerful; ... well what do you expect after 5 years on the US market, no improvements? Apparently not.
In a few years the 1st generation will be the one to have (for some it already is), just like many other brands talked about earlier. The 2002? it will hopefully re-encarnate in the 135i, which I am lusting over, but will not get... who wants a first try out?.... ME PLEASE! They will mess it up soon enough!
You can see why they did it, it just wasn't a smart move. They felt they still needed to distinguish the S from the Cooper by its most identifiable feature in the R53.
Purists scoff at the fake hood scoop, and for good reason, but for the general masses it was probably the correct decision. If I could find a Cooper hood I'd ditch mine for it any day of the week. Coopers have always had the better lines.
Purists scoff at the fake hood scoop, and for good reason, but for the general masses it was probably the correct decision. If I could find a Cooper hood I'd ditch mine for it any day of the week. Coopers have always had the better lines.
4th Gear
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You can see why they did it, it just wasn't a smart move. They felt they still needed to distinguish the S from the Cooper by its most identifiable feature in the R53.
Purists scoff at the fake hood scoop, and for good reason, but for the general masses it was probably the correct decision. If I could find a Cooper hood I'd ditch mine for it any day of the week. Coopers have always had the better lines.
Purists scoff at the fake hood scoop, and for good reason, but for the general masses it was probably the correct decision. If I could find a Cooper hood I'd ditch mine for it any day of the week. Coopers have always had the better lines.
Last edited by slag1911; Feb 6, 2008 at 02:19 PM.
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4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 385
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January Year to Year:
2003 - 2818
2004 - 2756
2005 - 2917
2006 - 2944 (End R53 era)
2007 - 2050 (Begin R56 era)
2008 - 2460
January 2008 sales are down %25 from the R53 era year to year average... and I will bet you that the February 2008 sales numbers follow the exact downward spiral...
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,382
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Yeah... R56 sales are on fire!
January Year to Year:
2003 - 2818
2004 - 2756
2005 - 2917
2006 - 2944 (End R53 era)
2007 - 2050 (Begin R56 era)
2008 - 2460
January 2008 are down %25 from the R53 era year to year average... and I will bet you that the February sales numbers follow the exact downward spiral...
January Year to Year:
2003 - 2818
2004 - 2756
2005 - 2917
2006 - 2944 (End R53 era)
2007 - 2050 (Begin R56 era)
2008 - 2460
January 2008 are down %25 from the R53 era year to year average... and I will bet you that the February sales numbers follow the exact downward spiral...
Mark
Banned
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,382
Likes: 0
Just found this;
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4748811&EDATE=
You keep coming up with numbers, but no links to the info you are getting it from.
Mark
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4748811&EDATE=
You keep coming up with numbers, but no links to the info you are getting it from.
Mark
Banned
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,382
Likes: 0
Yeah... R56 sales are on fire!
January Year to Year:
2003 - 2818
2004 - 2756
2005 - 2917
2006 - 2944 (End R53 era)
2007 - 2050 (Begin R56 era)
2008 - 2460
January 2008 sales are down %25 from the R53 era year to year average... and I will bet you that the February 2008 sales numbers follow the exact downward spiral...
January Year to Year:
2003 - 2818
2004 - 2756
2005 - 2917
2006 - 2944 (End R53 era)
2007 - 2050 (Begin R56 era)
2008 - 2460
January 2008 sales are down %25 from the R53 era year to year average... and I will bet you that the February 2008 sales numbers follow the exact downward spiral...
You asked for Moderator input, you got it.
Mark
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 385
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These numbers are from the GBMINI site.
Any statistical analysis needs to look at the big picture. Taking one data point (or even one small period of time) and trying to make a broad generalization makes for a nice item to post, but it doesn't make it correct.
FACT: Let's remove convertibles from the mix completely. Easy to do based on the data GBMINI has provided.
FACT: 2006 Sales of Cooper and Cooper S + GPs (not including either convertible) : 28,980 actual number is 29,363
FACT: 2007 Sales of R56s only: 30,778
FACT: The R56 was only for sale for 11 of the 12 months of 2007.
FACT: You cannot say the plant changeover affected 2006 R53 sales, as December 06 sales are higher than december 05 sales. What? Let's keep it apples to apples... MINI produced the R53 for 10.5 months in 2006... and MINI produced the R56 for 11 months in 2007.. that is the relevant FACT...
FACT: Monthly average for non-convertibles in 06: 2415
FACT: Monthly average for R56s in 07: 2798 I bet because it is the last of the classic style!
Based on these facts, one can safely assume that BMW is not worried about the R56 being a slow seller. They actually picked up 300 cars per month with the R56. The sky is falling! Yeah... I bet BMW is doing back slaps, back flips and high fives because their re-tooled and re-engineered R56 outsold a 10.5 month production run of the car it replaced by a whooping 1414 units!
Regarding the layoffs (of TEMPORARY workers). The new model is easier to manufacture, thus requiring fewer people working the lines. MINI is NOT reducing production of their vehicles, even though they are reducing headcount. This is just a standard manufacturing phenomenon, where improvements to the design of the product and equipment making it require less labor. Worker layoffs are a result of the decision by BMW to slow R56 production... due to demand... this is not a secret.
There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the R56 not being a good seller. The data doesn't bear that out. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change the data. In fact, it is so obvious that I would think a person would have to try really hard to twist that data to make it look better for the R53. The numbers tell half the story... look at the glut of R56 cars on dealers lots... and incentives to move inventory... unheard of during the entire R53 era...
One last thing. The 'November - January numbers are low' arguement is a weak one. R56 sales for January 2008 are down 25% as compared to the entire R53 era average... this is not an "argument" it is a numerical FACT...
I can pick SEVERAL three month sets over the course of R53 production that are lower than the monthly mean. The current trend for the R56 is significantly down... as compared to anytime during the R53 era. All the more significant due to the fact the R56 is still in it's first year of production, a time period when sales should be strongest... not weakest in the entire production run of the modern MINI.
I love my R53. I think the R56 is a great car. I really want a factory R56 JCW.
I'm glad we all have MINIs to love. (well, not all of us. some of the most vocal anti-R56 folks don't seem to drive MINIs at all......)
Any statistical analysis needs to look at the big picture. Taking one data point (or even one small period of time) and trying to make a broad generalization makes for a nice item to post, but it doesn't make it correct.
FACT: Let's remove convertibles from the mix completely. Easy to do based on the data GBMINI has provided.
FACT: 2006 Sales of Cooper and Cooper S + GPs (not including either convertible) : 28,980 actual number is 29,363
FACT: 2007 Sales of R56s only: 30,778
FACT: The R56 was only for sale for 11 of the 12 months of 2007.
FACT: You cannot say the plant changeover affected 2006 R53 sales, as December 06 sales are higher than december 05 sales. What? Let's keep it apples to apples... MINI produced the R53 for 10.5 months in 2006... and MINI produced the R56 for 11 months in 2007.. that is the relevant FACT...
FACT: Monthly average for non-convertibles in 06: 2415
FACT: Monthly average for R56s in 07: 2798 I bet because it is the last of the classic style!
Based on these facts, one can safely assume that BMW is not worried about the R56 being a slow seller. They actually picked up 300 cars per month with the R56. The sky is falling! Yeah... I bet BMW is doing back slaps, back flips and high fives because their re-tooled and re-engineered R56 outsold a 10.5 month production run of the car it replaced by a whooping 1414 units!
Regarding the layoffs (of TEMPORARY workers). The new model is easier to manufacture, thus requiring fewer people working the lines. MINI is NOT reducing production of their vehicles, even though they are reducing headcount. This is just a standard manufacturing phenomenon, where improvements to the design of the product and equipment making it require less labor. Worker layoffs are a result of the decision by BMW to slow R56 production... due to demand... this is not a secret.
There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the R56 not being a good seller. The data doesn't bear that out. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change the data. In fact, it is so obvious that I would think a person would have to try really hard to twist that data to make it look better for the R53. The numbers tell half the story... look at the glut of R56 cars on dealers lots... and incentives to move inventory... unheard of during the entire R53 era...
One last thing. The 'November - January numbers are low' arguement is a weak one. R56 sales for January 2008 are down 25% as compared to the entire R53 era average... this is not an "argument" it is a numerical FACT...
I can pick SEVERAL three month sets over the course of R53 production that are lower than the monthly mean. The current trend for the R56 is significantly down... as compared to anytime during the R53 era. All the more significant due to the fact the R56 is still in it's first year of production, a time period when sales should be strongest... not weakest in the entire production run of the modern MINI.
I love my R53. I think the R56 is a great car. I really want a factory R56 JCW.
I'm glad we all have MINIs to love. (well, not all of us. some of the most vocal anti-R56 folks don't seem to drive MINIs at all......)
Last edited by slag1911; Feb 6, 2008 at 04:46 PM.
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 385
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4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Just found this;
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4748811&EDATE=
You keep coming up with numbers, but no links to the info you are getting it from.
Mark
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4748811&EDATE=
You keep coming up with numbers, but no links to the info you are getting it from.
Mark
http://www.gbmini.net/wp/mini_sales/
6th Gear
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,433
Likes: 1
From: Gloucester, MA, USA
I'm pleased to see my tracking of sales figures put to some use ... even if it is a bit of a strange useage!
As some might know, the R56 isn't top of my list - but trying to say it's failed by extracting one single sales month of data is not helpful. Especially the December / January time frame, is affected by holidays at the factory, holidays at dealerships, people choosing to buy Christmas gifts instead of new cars, all sorts of things.
What's very important but I don't see mentioned here too, is:
The MINI factory in Oxford, England makes cars for the whole world - sales figures in USA might or might not indicate popularity of the car in this country, but success for MINI the brand is related to global sales.
Here's a quote from a recent BMW press group worldwide announcement:
... MINI also recorded good growth, with the retail sales volume rising by 18.5% to 222,875 units (2006: 188,077 units) ...
As some might know, the R56 isn't top of my list - but trying to say it's failed by extracting one single sales month of data is not helpful. Especially the December / January time frame, is affected by holidays at the factory, holidays at dealerships, people choosing to buy Christmas gifts instead of new cars, all sorts of things.
What's very important but I don't see mentioned here too, is:
The MINI factory in Oxford, England makes cars for the whole world - sales figures in USA might or might not indicate popularity of the car in this country, but success for MINI the brand is related to global sales.
Here's a quote from a recent BMW press group worldwide announcement:
... MINI also recorded good growth, with the retail sales volume rising by 18.5% to 222,875 units (2006: 188,077 units) ...
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
To keep this thread on topic... I suggest you PM with these questions... rather than pull this thread off topic.
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
I'm pleased to see my tracking of sales figures put to some use ... even if it is a bit of a strange useage!
As some might know, the R56 isn't top of my list - but trying to say it's failed by extracting one single sales month of data is not helpful. Especially the December / January time frame, is affected by holidays at the factory, holidays at dealerships, people choosing to buy Christmas gifts instead of new cars, all sorts of things.
What's very important but I don't see mentioned here too, is:
The MINI factory in Oxford, England makes cars for the whole world - sales figures in USA might or might not indicate popularity of the car in this country, but success for MINI the brand is related to global sales.
Here's a quote from a recent BMW press group worldwide announcement:
... MINI also recorded good growth, with the retail sales volume rising by 18.5% to 222,875 units (2006: 188,077 units) ...
As some might know, the R56 isn't top of my list - but trying to say it's failed by extracting one single sales month of data is not helpful. Especially the December / January time frame, is affected by holidays at the factory, holidays at dealerships, people choosing to buy Christmas gifts instead of new cars, all sorts of things.
What's very important but I don't see mentioned here too, is:
The MINI factory in Oxford, England makes cars for the whole world - sales figures in USA might or might not indicate popularity of the car in this country, but success for MINI the brand is related to global sales.
Here's a quote from a recent BMW press group worldwide announcement:
... MINI also recorded good growth, with the retail sales volume rising by 18.5% to 222,875 units (2006: 188,077 units) ...
Glad you could join us! I agree with holidays... Christmas.. throwing off trends... that is why I'm doing a relative comparison to the same period during the R53 era... to keep things apples to apples. If we throw out the retooling months at the end of 2007 and beginning of 2008.... we still have an excellent baseline established during the R53 era... that can be compared to the current market trend with the R56. Looking at this trend, the R56 sales direction is into the red. This is an indicator of the 2008 sales direction.. and I'm sure forecasts are being done at BMW as we speak.
6th Gear
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,433
Likes: 1
From: Gloucester, MA, USA
Look at the R50/R53 sales for prior years:
2003 - 2,818
2004 - 2,756
2005 - 2,917
2006 - 2,944
So sales dropped in 2004, compared with 2003. Not as much as the R56 sales are down for January 2008 - but still, I'd want to see another two months of sales before drawing conclusions.
The low Jan'08 sales might be due to starting manufacture of the Clubman; we know that the factory has a fixed capacity of cars no matter what the type, so an increase (from 0!) of clubmans will HAVE TO reduce the R56/R52 production so that the total factory capacity is not exceeded.
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 385
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I recently sold my R53 JCW, and now seek the right GP to come along. I hold an M.B.A in marketing (strategies and tactics of pricing ) with an under graduate in 3D automotive design, however my current professional employment is not in the automotive field. I have assisted others within this and other MINI communities... including posters in this very thread.
Hope that helps.
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
The problem with trying to do that is the holiday periods vary from year to year, depending for example where Christmas & Boxing day fall during the week.
Look at the R50/R53 sales for prior years:
2003 - 2,818
2004 - 2,756
2005 - 2,917
2006 - 2,944
So sales dropped in 2004, compared with 2003. Not as much as the R56 sales are down for January 2008 - but still, I'd want to see another two months of sales before drawing conclusions.
The low Jan'08 sales might be due to starting manufacture of the Clubman; we know that the factory has a fixed capacity of cars no matter what the type, so an increase (from 0!) of clubmans will HAVE TO reduce the R56/R52 production so that the total factory capacity is not exceeded.
Look at the R50/R53 sales for prior years:
2003 - 2,818
2004 - 2,756
2005 - 2,917
2006 - 2,944
So sales dropped in 2004, compared with 2003. Not as much as the R56 sales are down for January 2008 - but still, I'd want to see another two months of sales before drawing conclusions.
The low Jan'08 sales might be due to starting manufacture of the Clubman; we know that the factory has a fixed capacity of cars no matter what the type, so an increase (from 0!) of clubmans will HAVE TO reduce the R56/R52 production so that the total factory capacity is not exceeded.