So the time has come for me to start thinking about ecu upgrades for my mcs. I've got the expected mods either on their way or already installed, 15% pully, miltek catback, and alta cai (And no I don't care whether it actually does anything or not it's already installed ).

I contacted dmh here on these forums and I have to say I was more then impressed with both his responce time and the bulk of very plainly spoken information he gave me. Lets put it this way with his fast responce I don't have any qualms about customer service which was my main reservation before.

So I've read up on the whole thing and it does sound like the mth with the tuner file would work well for what I need it to do.

But for some reason I still have some reservations:
1) First of all the total cost after buying the cable, CARTUNE, and tuner file is going to cost me some where around 450 or so. In looking at other full ecu upgrades comming in at 700-800, buying the tuner file puts me half way there to a full ecu. My question is what are the differences as in what would i gain if i just went the full distance and got the full ecu upgrade.

In addition the price is another concern to me. When I was going through college I took a class that was a practical application of assembler coding. What we did was re-program and make several profiles for a traction control system for my proffessors mide 90's 911 (talk about slave labor). It was a fun project and difficult but we weren't given really anything to begin with. And honestly once you found your target variables and the ranges that you wanted to be in with those values it was more or less a process of building the code (loops, checksums, "if/thens" basically core logic) around it. MTH isn't doing that at all really. In my mind essentially you are paying for them to take a standard file which they start with and plugging in a few number values and ranges.

Assuming this is at least partially true and they aren't doing much code re-designing that means what you are buying is technically customer support which you are only provided one year of technically. Now from what I have seen it seems they place that 1 year disclaimer in there to just kinda cover their *** and they really seem to make alot of exceptions.

2) Has any one with any significant amound of software engineering taken a look at the files which are being flashed to your ecu. I assume they are assembler or some low lvl lanugage. So what stops end users from taking the stock file comparing it to a modified file and doing the work themselves?


Hmm I thought I had more but I guess I'll just post this to get started and add more to it later if the thread takes off in a decent discussion. Any way like I said I'm not trying to bash mth or what they do I just want to know exactly what I am getting for my 450. I mean don't get me wrong I don't have any misconceptions about how hard this can be, in my experiences it took 12 people 15 weeks of 3-4 hours of work per week to get the car I worked on in full working order and performing the way our proffessor wanted it to. So don't get me wrong I mean MTH has to stay in business and they are definatly offereing a very real product. But really if this is the answer then why are more expensive full hardware/software kits still popular.

 

Ah yes, inquisitive minds want to know.

 

My questions, exactly. I bought a Unichip on the marketplace forum on an impulse buy. Figured I can always sell it, where the MTH file is keyed to the VIN in the ECU.

So what is the straight scoop?

 

In reference to your title alone...

There is a tuner in Maryland (Mr. Behe, the owner and proprietor of Lucky Dog Garage) whom most people on the east coast are aware of, and is also an NAM sponsor... brought his 350hp 'turbo beast mule' mini to MOTD06 to play with it and show people it could be done.

He is also working on his own tuning software, and has purchased some 'inside' engine management software for the Mini from overseas. I talk to him occassionally (usually whenever the club visits his garage, or I'm getting some work done by him) and one of the things he has mentioned about engine management software and ECUs are that there are two solutions for 'proper' tuning.

Inside the software itself, such as MTH... And external chips that do things you either cannot force the software to do or add/remove signals the factory setup just cannot do itself.

So using that philosophy, MTH alone does not a complete solution make. Then neither does Unichip. They both do what they do, but they do it in different ways. One works inside, one works outside. An ideal solution is one that is symbiotic, working from both inside and outside harmoniously. This makes sense to me.

The purpose of this post is not to belittle MTH or Unichip, as they both do what they do... But LDG's philosphy regarding ecu management and software tuning sounds more 'sound' to me than focusing on comparing two different systems which do two different things and do not work together. Just thought I'd share my 2 cents.

 

cool... I can see that this thread is going to answer some of my questions and concerns.

I too am honestly critical of both types of systems. My reasoning is if one works well doing things internally, how is it that this other piece of hardware can create similar results through different means. And then why is the price so different.

I respect your comments about comparing apples to oranges, and this thread topic is indeed a hard sell, in addition it is potentially dangerous for mis-information value.

But that is at the root of my point. It seems this is almost a take my word for it industry on the consumer level. I mean we know that each produces results but do we really know the line by line differences in how each product is producing those results and where one may fall short in certain critical areas and one may not (and vice-versa).

thanks
erik

 

I have done 39 MoTec installs on various 911 derived race cars. If you want programming knowledge it doesn’t come cheap.

Concerning the Mini, you will not find a better product for the price than MTH. If, as Wagnbat says of the Lucky Dog guy, you want more flexibility you can also run a fuel trimmer such as the Blitz. However, it is not necessary for a street car and to do so you better have a test track available to you for all conditions, both weather and speed. Dynos will only give you a small window in which to look through. And a piggyback system only fools the sensors and is thus only as good as the provided maps.

 

In the end I'll most likley go with the MTH solution but there are a few things in my mind that will keep me on the fence until it's in my hands. I have come to the conclusion that getting some cold hard answers about exactly what each chipping process does and changes is not possible. I do understand that people have a certian amount to hide from their competitors (be it software or hardware chips alike) but still since it's being put onto my car I just like to know all the details. But oh well.

As for the customer service issue I guess I will find out soon. I will most definatly be doing all of my dealings with don at precision mini. I won't expect momentary delivery once my order is placed and I will go through the delivery process optimistically. I hope that the handfull of bad stories that I hear are derived through the mth-usa distributer instead of mth as the greater entity. It does seem kinda wierd that some people get delivery of their tuner files in 3 days where other people it takes weeks even though they both claim to have been dealing with mth directly.

As far as what's behind this thing I definatly want to take a look at these files. I assumed there a handfull of software engineers that drove mini's and i assumed they would be all about getting elbow deep in the ecu, but I guess not. Sorry if any comments or questions I have said have offended either vendor but I find playing devil's advocate with products I intend to buy is the best way to make sure I don't get burned.

erik

 

As you alluded to, yes indeed, tuning information is proprietary.

 

For better or worse, I pretty much live in a world of bits. As a network engineer, I'm constantly picking apart sniffer traces of IP traffic, and although it is not executable code, the concept is the same.

You could compare the various binary files that you have in front of you, but the trick is, without some documentation as to the values and field specifics that you're looking at, it would be impossible to figure out what's going on. I guess I shouldn't say impossible, but it would take an awful lot of time and testing. You could easily say, 'this value changed from 12 to 16', but without the doc, you really don't know if it bumps the timing, or is actually a bit string that's being evaluated by the Siemens 5150. Unless you have the doc on the 5150, and know the field layouts and the instruction set, you'd be lost.

Unlike some manufacturers, Siemens does not publish those specifics, hence it's proprietary. There's a lot of people that would love to get their hands on it, but to my knowledge it is unavailable. Somehow, MTH got it, so we'll just have to rely on their inside knowledge and expertise.

An exterior device that fools the sensors would have an advantage in that you really wouldn't have to totally understand the EMS, you could just vary the inputs and measure the results. Understanding the EMS internals and altering them would be the best way to do it, but on the other hand, there might be things that the EMS is just not designed to do, and an external device might be necessary.

I'd be interested in any documentation that anyone happened to find, without wandering into the realm of illegality, that is.

So many ways to skin a cat...........

 

I started a thread a while back and emailed Motec..... the cost and loss of functions for a car you wish to drive on the street make it .... well not practical....... I have a Unichip with a custom tune done on the street and dyno by Josh Murray of Unichip..... he did a very nice job and "hornguys" just finished up with Hesco in Birmingham AL and is very happy (Jim aka "hornguys" has been at this a long time and I trust his judgement) all that being said I would love a custom MTH tune to see what can be achived.... my experience with files moving back and forth has not been good..... It would be nice to have an MTH "dealer" local where you can go and get a custom tune....

 

You a local dealer for MTH is not necessary. If you think there is a problem with the tune, just hook up an a/f meter and send the details to me.

 

in real time while on the dyno? and corrections can be made in real time?

 

Dyno tuning is for very specific applications and road car tuning is not one of them. The proper dyno setup is far beyond the reach of most tuning companies. No matter what, you will need a test track in all weather conditions at your disposal.

Please remember, we are speaking of road cars, not race cars, here.

 

The way my car was tuned was while actually driving ...Josh was in the car.... computer engaged..... how do you replicate that? The dyno was only used for final WOT check....actually not necessary.....

 

I'm actually trying to help. Tuning is simply not easy. What needs to be done is to log track tuning time. For instance, I spent Monday and Tuesday at Watkins Glen. We had the track for 14 uninterrupted hours. Many teams were there from Grand Am, HSR, PCA, etc all tuning and testing. It happens at Roebling Road and Road Atlanta near you quite often. All you need is a test driver who meets the minimum requirements to be on the track.

Those with engine modifications such as pulleys, head work, better intercoolers, and products like the M7 AGS will not see the true potential of these modifications until the software is optimized. That is why I rely on MTH as it is by far the best solution I have found for the Mini. After all, these are just street cars.

 

I see that you are trying to help.... so if you will...go through the process.... I go to road Atlanta on a tuning day and then what..... are you there? do I log A/F and send you a file...can I get the file back while still a the track for adjustments.... what about timing etc... are you only concerend with A/F? I say this because my limited experience with MTH is you send off your mods and back comes a file that you upload...... how is that different than what you are proposing.... do you do the same with the added dimension of actual A/F data?

 

Precision tuning is not easy and is very time consuming, i.e., it costs a lot of money. For those that are semi-serious with their street car but not serious enough for MoTec what you can do with your MTH system follows.
But get a few things right first such as the exhaust. Run a cat-back with proper size tubing for the power you engine is making. And if you are buying a header get one that is designed for where you want to make power. Most all headers on the market today are designed for street applications where lower end power is desirable but they do vary. (I do have race headers for those very few so inclined where power is made from the mid to top end.)
Then…
1) Degree you cam.
2) Put an 02 bung before the cat, use a wide band sensor and log a/f ratios at varying RPMs.
3) If the a/f ratios are off either (a) report the a/f ratios to me and have MTH make the adjustments in the programming or (b) use a fuel trimmer such as a Blitz and do it yourself.

(Please note that the above is for those people with heavily modified engines that are trying to squeeze out the last bit utilizing an MTH tune. It is not necessary to perform these actions for most all tunes.)

 

Thanks for the info Don,

Bob

 

Another option based on your mods is GIAC. Find your nearest GIAC distributor from their website, drive to see them, 20 minutes, $325.00 and they have a return policy. You should inquire prior to purchase from the local distributor. I did a post which might help - in performance mods - ecu giac upgrade.

 

LOL, I looked at the file (tinkering programmer) and decided to let someone that has experience with it mess with it as it looked pretty complicated. Kind of like tinkering in the registry of a windows computer.

 

A mate of mine at work owns an Evo 9, and found this software to be able to download the ecu map and tinker around with it. Might be of use to you guys looking at customising your own map. From what I've seen of it, it looks pretty good and easy to use if you know what your ranges are and what to do. Personally I wouldn't have a clue, but it might be of interest.

ECUFlash --> www.openecu.org