Tigger 2.0
#52
11-08-2014, 02:51 PM
Former Vendor
Here is the Owens specs. Fitted one a few weeks ago and will have dyno #'s on December 6th.
MINI (R56) k04/63.5hta
Turbo 5303-988-0163
63.5hta
Stepped ring seal
K04 turbine wheel
360 thrust kit
Machine compressor cover inlet and profile (Inlet is now has a bigger o/d)
Profile turbine housing
Internal Heatshield mod/spacer
Mod turbine wheel nut and back plate
Std waste gate set at -9.5 inhg
MINI (R56) k04/63.5hta
Turbo 5303-988-0163
63.5hta
Stepped ring seal
K04 turbine wheel
360 thrust kit
Machine compressor cover inlet and profile (Inlet is now has a bigger o/d)
Profile turbine housing
Internal Heatshield mod/spacer
Mod turbine wheel nut and back plate
Std waste gate set at -9.5 inhg
#53
11-08-2014, 06:18 PM
@ Tigger. Had some great PM's with ya. I forget if we've talked about your turbo selection. For some reason the E45 is ringing a bell. I did some research as far as quality goes for the Owen turbo. If your not committed you should give this a really good look. I think I'm getting an Owen turbo. There quality during manufacturing is really good. Being an aircraft mechanic and detailing with parts needing to be a certain standard, I can see the difference when looking at other manufacturers. I think I'm choosing an Owen.
#54
11-09-2014, 01:39 PM
Hey Sprint that's great news. You'll be much happier with the flow compared to the other turbo you were looking at.
Awesome info. Thanks for the data EuroTech, now I can update the original post. Did some digging and also found out the compressor inducer is just under 45mm and the JMTC is just over 45mm so the compressor inducers are roughly the same size but the JMTC should have slightly higher flow. The Owens has a larger exducer at 63.5mm counting extended tips where the E45R exducer is 59mm counting extended tips. Based solely on compressor dimension we can estimate that the Owens should hold higher boost pressures more efficiently and the JM should spool quicker and flow a little more. I wish we could find out what the turbine wheel dimensions are and get a compressor map for it. Before getting an Owens I'd need more data on it than whats available currently. In my line of work it comes down to metrics.
Fore example when working on a jet engine you must know the flow of the components you are assembling. If you mix the wrong flow class exhaust nozzle with a turbine section that flows differently, performance will suffer. There is also an old axiom that states what can't be measured, can't be improved. Everything about engine building is based on math. I know many would say "Yuck I just want to go fast!" But let me give you another example to help make my point. Let's say your trying to determine what size fuel nozzle you need to reach a certain HP level. The last thing you want to happen is have a nozzle that doesn't flow enough resulting in a dangerously lean condition. Fuel flow in cc per minute = (HP x 5.6)/# of cylinders. So let's say we want to make 350 BHP. We need 490 cc/min of fuel flow per cylinder. Then we have to take into consideration the duty cycle of the injector because if the injectors are flowing at 100% the injector will overheat and burn out. 85% is usually the max duty cycle you want to run so we take the 490cc and divide it by .85. So now we know that if we want to reach 350bhp our injectors need to be rated at 576 cc or higher.
Having already purchased the E45R and having seen how it performs on another engine I plan on keeping it for the time being. Still Owens has earned a reputation on building a quality product and I look forward to seeing the performance data that should be available soon. Hopefully more information will also be forthcoming from Owens. Specifically on the turbine size and hopefully a compressor map. Based on that data I may well change my mind. Competition in the market place is a good thing for us when all's said and done.
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
Awesome info. Thanks for the data EuroTech, now I can update the original post. Did some digging and also found out the compressor inducer is just under 45mm and the JMTC is just over 45mm so the compressor inducers are roughly the same size but the JMTC should have slightly higher flow. The Owens has a larger exducer at 63.5mm counting extended tips where the E45R exducer is 59mm counting extended tips. Based solely on compressor dimension we can estimate that the Owens should hold higher boost pressures more efficiently and the JM should spool quicker and flow a little more. I wish we could find out what the turbine wheel dimensions are and get a compressor map for it. Before getting an Owens I'd need more data on it than whats available currently. In my line of work it comes down to metrics.
Fore example when working on a jet engine you must know the flow of the components you are assembling. If you mix the wrong flow class exhaust nozzle with a turbine section that flows differently, performance will suffer. There is also an old axiom that states what can't be measured, can't be improved. Everything about engine building is based on math. I know many would say "Yuck I just want to go fast!" But let me give you another example to help make my point. Let's say your trying to determine what size fuel nozzle you need to reach a certain HP level. The last thing you want to happen is have a nozzle that doesn't flow enough resulting in a dangerously lean condition. Fuel flow in cc per minute = (HP x 5.6)/# of cylinders. So let's say we want to make 350 BHP. We need 490 cc/min of fuel flow per cylinder. Then we have to take into consideration the duty cycle of the injector because if the injectors are flowing at 100% the injector will overheat and burn out. 85% is usually the max duty cycle you want to run so we take the 490cc and divide it by .85. So now we know that if we want to reach 350bhp our injectors need to be rated at 576 cc or higher.
Having already purchased the E45R and having seen how it performs on another engine I plan on keeping it for the time being. Still Owens has earned a reputation on building a quality product and I look forward to seeing the performance data that should be available soon. Hopefully more information will also be forthcoming from Owens. Specifically on the turbine size and hopefully a compressor map. Based on that data I may well change my mind. Competition in the market place is a good thing for us when all's said and done.
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
#55
11-12-2014, 02:53 PM
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#56
11-12-2014, 07:45 PM
Former Vendor
Turbo charger selection…decisions decisions. First lets look at what bolt on solutions are available for our platform along with their specifications. Then we can figure out what those specs mean to us. All flow numbers listed below are at the 70% efficiency island on their respective compressor map. Many turbos can be and are pushed past that point. It is just generally not recommend as the lower the efficiency island the more heat is being transferred into the intake charge.
FACTORY KO3 OPTIONS:
Stock Cooper S - Borg-Warner
Compressor Inducer 38mm, Compressor Exducer 50mm
Turbine Inducer 45mm, Turbine Exducer 40.5mm
Flow approx. 22 lbs/min
JCW Trubo - Borg-Warner
Compressor Inducer 40mm, Compressor Exducer 50m
Turbine Inducer 45mm, Turbine Exducer 40.5mm
Flow approx. 26 lbs/min
HYBRID KO3 OPTIONS:
JMTC S42HP
Compressor Inducer 42mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 45mm, Turbine Exducer 40.5mm
Flow approx. 28 lbs/min
JMTC E45HP
Compressor Inducer 45mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 45mm, Turbine Exducer 40.5mm
Flow approx. 30 lbs/min <Boost pressure limited by smaller KO3 turbine torque.
HYBRID KO4 OPTIONS:
Alta Hybrid - If you can find one.
Compressor Inducer 43mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 50mm, Turbine Exducer 42mm
Flow approx. 30 lbs/min
FrankenTurbo F21M
Compressor Inducer 43mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Trubine Inducer 50mm, Turbine Exducer 44mm
Flow approx. 33 lbs/min
JMTC E45R
Compressor Inducer 45mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 50mm, Turbine Exducer 42mm
Flow approx. 35 lbs/min
JMTC GTD
Compressor Inducer 47mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 50mm, Turbine Exducer 44mm
Flow approx. 39 lbs/min
FACTORY KO3 OPTIONS:
Stock Cooper S - Borg-Warner
Compressor Inducer 38mm, Compressor Exducer 50mm
Turbine Inducer 45mm, Turbine Exducer 40.5mm
Flow approx. 22 lbs/min
JCW Trubo - Borg-Warner
Compressor Inducer 40mm, Compressor Exducer 50m
Turbine Inducer 45mm, Turbine Exducer 40.5mm
Flow approx. 26 lbs/min
HYBRID KO3 OPTIONS:
JMTC S42HP
Compressor Inducer 42mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 45mm, Turbine Exducer 40.5mm
Flow approx. 28 lbs/min
JMTC E45HP
Compressor Inducer 45mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 45mm, Turbine Exducer 40.5mm
Flow approx. 30 lbs/min <Boost pressure limited by smaller KO3 turbine torque.
HYBRID KO4 OPTIONS:
Alta Hybrid - If you can find one.
Compressor Inducer 43mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 50mm, Turbine Exducer 42mm
Flow approx. 30 lbs/min
FrankenTurbo F21M
Compressor Inducer 43mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Trubine Inducer 50mm, Turbine Exducer 44mm
Flow approx. 33 lbs/min
JMTC E45R
Compressor Inducer 45mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 50mm, Turbine Exducer 42mm
Flow approx. 35 lbs/min
JMTC GTD
Compressor Inducer 47mm, Compressor Exducer 56mm
Turbine Inducer 50mm, Turbine Exducer 44mm
Flow approx. 39 lbs/min
Also, the exact wheel dimensions have yet to be determined. Even after two years of testing we haven't seen enough tuning data to finalize a spec there.
In several Mini forums I have heard the same uninformed opinion regurgitated over and over. "Don't get a KO4 turbo. It will kill your bottom end responsiveness." Based on my own personal experience and data logging I have found the KO4 turbo's to spool to identical boost levels on the bottom end within 200 - 300 RPM of a KO3. Both utilize dual scroll turbine housings which increase responsiveness by separating out of phase exhaust pulses to prevent them from interfering with each other before they hit the turbine wheel and as such are very responsive. In addition the larger turbine resulted in lower exhaust temps and combined with the larger compressor it continued to produce high boost levels at high RPM long after a KO3 would have fallen flat on its face.
Ideally you want to choose a turbo that is not only quick to spool but is also capable of flowing a sufficient volume of air to meet your HP target. Generally speaking 1.1 lb/min of airflow equals 10 HP and that is BHP or shaft horse power, not power at the wheel. Generally accepted loss figures for our drivetrain are 12% for manuals and 14% for automatics.
If your looking for something with a little more kick than the JCW turbo then either the JMTC S42HP or E45HP are good choices that still use the standard KO3 turbine. If your going to step up to the next level however you'll have to choose something using the KO4 turbine. Two great choices there are the Frankenturbo F21M and the JMTC E45R. The newest revision of the F21M with 44mm exducer will result in less back pressure and lower EGT's whereas the E45R flows slightly more according to the compressor map.
If your looking for something with a little more kick than the JCW turbo then either the JMTC S42HP or E45HP are good choices that still use the standard KO3 turbine. If your going to step up to the next level however you'll have to choose something using the KO4 turbine. Two great choices there are the Frankenturbo F21M and the JMTC E45R. The newest revision of the F21M with 44mm exducer will result in less back pressure and lower EGT's whereas the E45R flows slightly more according to the compressor map.
For this build I will be utilizing the JM Turbo Cooper E45R turbo charger. Attached below is a comparison photo of the E45R next to a stock Cooper S turbo. Since this unit produces 35 lbs/min of air at 70% efficiency it should be sufficient to make 275 HP at the wheels in my auto without pushing it to 65% efficiency or resorting to water/meth injection. 
Here's my point of view: we've had a solid hybrid turbo product available for the 1.6L Prince engine for over two years. Yet we've been unable to introduce it to market because no one appears able to tune these cars for boost levels above 17-18psi.
I'd love to see that change.
Last edited by doug@frankenturbo; 11-12-2014 at 07:56 PM.
#57
11-12-2014, 08:47 PM
2nd Gear
Join Date: Oct 2013
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Where oh where do I begin to sing the praises of the N18 head. Tip #1 buy an N14. Whomever designed the valvetronic head should be smashed in the nuts. (did I say that out loud?) Seriously though the dual vanos was an outstanding concept. Fully variable intake and exhaust valve timing. Bloody brilliant! But the valvetronic function is a real pain from the performance enthusiast point of view, as is removing and re-installing the valvetronic arm springs from the spring perches. The N18 uses the valvetronic system to control load as opposed to the intake butterfly on the N14. This is accomplished by using a three phase stepper motor with a worm gear that turns an eccentric shaft. This shaft acts on an intermediate rocker arm to vary valve lift. You can see pictures of the system below.
The problem with this from a performance point of view is that any alteration to cam profile or valve lift requires altering the eccentric shaft profile or valve length. As an example lets say we installed an intake cam with 10mm lift as opposed to the factory 9mm lift cam. At idle the eccentric shaft would be rotated to reduce valve lift to lets say 1mm with the factory cam. With a 10mm lift cam installed the intake lift at idle would be 2mm. This would result in a very flawed idle as the ECU tried to compensate for an idle RPM much higher than normal. Those with experience on valvetronic heads will tell you that when performing a valve job on these you must measure the valve height when closed before cutting the valve seats and faces. After performing the valve job you must take this measurement a second time. Whatever the difference is between two must be machined from the top of the valve stem in order to keep the valve geometry the same.
So for N18 heads the best you can do without modifying the eccentric shaft is port and polish the head and perhaps install aftermarket valves with undercut stems. None are readily available off the shelf at this point. So your best bet is to remove one intake and exhaust valve and send them to someone like Ferrea or a similar company to have custom valves made. If your going to go this route be advised you will need to upgrade your valve springs which Supertech makes for the N18 to prevent valve float. Reason is because the aftermarket valves are heavier since they are made from solid stainless as opposed to the factory hollow sodium filled valves.
Here's a picture of the N18 valve train. The exhaust cam is at the bottom, the intake cam is in the middle and the eccentric shaft is partially hidden by the spring perch at the top. These springs at the top press against the intermediate rocker arm and hold it against the intake cam.
Here's a breakdown that may make it a little clearer.
Another picture with the intake and exhaust cams removed. The gear to the bottom left is attached to the eccentric shaft and is what is turned by the worm gear on the valvetronic motor.
A few more pictures of the intermediate rocker arm and eccentric shaft. The regular roller rocker arm is underneath and runs from the top of the valve stem to the hydraulic lash adjuster.
As you can see the intake tract from the factory is as rough as hell. Not good for VE. Most numbers quoted for volumetric efficiency on the N14 and N18 are .87. Plugging various dyno runs into the excel file at the beginning of this thread also produced the same number. Some are of the opinion that there is no need to port and polish a turbo charged head. In fact nothing could be farther from the truth. A turbo charged engine will benefit very much from an increase in VE. In our application an increase in VE from .87 to .99 which is easily achieved can result in a 30+ HP increase.
Before:
After:
Here's the exhaust port after polishing.
And finally here's the head after port/polishing when returned from the machine shop. Ready for re-assembly.
There's a lot to be gained from these heads especially in the deep pocket and seat area. What can't be made are huge gains in cross section through the rest of the ports. Because the way the head is cast the ports have less than 1/4" of material in places. Removing too much will result in a cracked head. So if you plan to have this done make sure you take it to someone who knows what they're about. On a side note I do plan on experimenting with the head from Tigger1.0 to evaluate the feasibility of altering the eccentric shaft profile for a higher lift cam. So perhaps there may be some good news on that front down the road.
The problem with this from a performance point of view is that any alteration to cam profile or valve lift requires altering the eccentric shaft profile or valve length. As an example lets say we installed an intake cam with 10mm lift as opposed to the factory 9mm lift cam. At idle the eccentric shaft would be rotated to reduce valve lift to lets say 1mm with the factory cam. With a 10mm lift cam installed the intake lift at idle would be 2mm. This would result in a very flawed idle as the ECU tried to compensate for an idle RPM much higher than normal. Those with experience on valvetronic heads will tell you that when performing a valve job on these you must measure the valve height when closed before cutting the valve seats and faces. After performing the valve job you must take this measurement a second time. Whatever the difference is between two must be machined from the top of the valve stem in order to keep the valve geometry the same.
So for N18 heads the best you can do without modifying the eccentric shaft is port and polish the head and perhaps install aftermarket valves with undercut stems. None are readily available off the shelf at this point. So your best bet is to remove one intake and exhaust valve and send them to someone like Ferrea or a similar company to have custom valves made. If your going to go this route be advised you will need to upgrade your valve springs which Supertech makes for the N18 to prevent valve float. Reason is because the aftermarket valves are heavier since they are made from solid stainless as opposed to the factory hollow sodium filled valves.
Here's a picture of the N18 valve train. The exhaust cam is at the bottom, the intake cam is in the middle and the eccentric shaft is partially hidden by the spring perch at the top. These springs at the top press against the intermediate rocker arm and hold it against the intake cam.
Here's a breakdown that may make it a little clearer.
Another picture with the intake and exhaust cams removed. The gear to the bottom left is attached to the eccentric shaft and is what is turned by the worm gear on the valvetronic motor.
A few more pictures of the intermediate rocker arm and eccentric shaft. The regular roller rocker arm is underneath and runs from the top of the valve stem to the hydraulic lash adjuster.
As you can see the intake tract from the factory is as rough as hell. Not good for VE. Most numbers quoted for volumetric efficiency on the N14 and N18 are .87. Plugging various dyno runs into the excel file at the beginning of this thread also produced the same number. Some are of the opinion that there is no need to port and polish a turbo charged head. In fact nothing could be farther from the truth. A turbo charged engine will benefit very much from an increase in VE. In our application an increase in VE from .87 to .99 which is easily achieved can result in a 30+ HP increase.
Before:
After:
Here's the exhaust port after polishing.
And finally here's the head after port/polishing when returned from the machine shop. Ready for re-assembly.
There's a lot to be gained from these heads especially in the deep pocket and seat area. What can't be made are huge gains in cross section through the rest of the ports. Because the way the head is cast the ports have less than 1/4" of material in places. Removing too much will result in a cracked head. So if you plan to have this done make sure you take it to someone who knows what they're about. On a side note I do plan on experimenting with the head from Tigger1.0 to evaluate the feasibility of altering the eccentric shaft profile for a higher lift cam. So perhaps there may be some good news on that front down the road.
#58
11-13-2014, 11:08 AM
Gotta agree there. I believe most of the problem stems from tuners failing to run the tune rich enough on the high end. The factory tune and most aftermarket tunes tend to run lean. I've personally seen AFR's of 12.2 to 12 on a hybrid by a very well respected shop. That's not much richer than an NA engine and not a good idea at high boost and high rpm. By increasing AFR to 11.3 to 11.5 you not only get increased cooling from the fuel but can increase timing as well. This results in cooler pistons, rings, valves, combustion chamber and by increasing the timing earlier BTDC reduces the amount of still burning mixture heating the exhaust valves as they pass out of the cylinder. All a very good idea when your increasing temperatures by increasing power. Without this the elevated temperatures create hot spots which can result in pre-ignition, surging, etc. For those not familiar, pre-ignition is where the intake charge ignites on the compression stroke before the spark plug fires. So while the piston is still on its way up to compress the intake charge it is meet by an expanding flame front pushing down. Mild detonation has a cumulative destructive effect. Heavy detonation is worse but pre-ignition will destroy an engine very quickly. Too many tuners just reduce timing further rather than enrich the mixture. Additionally on the N18 the exhaust vanos table can be adjusted for minor over scavenging resulting in still cooler temps at a slight loss of performance. Some might balk at that but altering the exhaust timing has much less of an impact on performance as compared to intake. This is of course just my humble opinion as a hobbyist.
Last edited by Tigger2011; 11-13-2014 at 01:19 PM.
#59
11-13-2014, 12:10 PM
Gotta agree there. I believe most of the problem stems from tuners failing to run the tune rich enough on the high end. The factory tune and most aftermarket tuner tend to run very lean. I've personally seen AFR's of 12.2 to 12 on a hybrid by a very well respected shop. That's not much richer than an NA engine and not a good idea at high boost and high rpm. By increasing AFR to 11.3 to 11.5 you not only get increased cooling from the fuel but can increase timing as well. This results in cooler pistons, rings, valves, combustion chamber and by increasing the timing earlier BTDC reduces the amount of still burning mixture heating the exhaust valves as they pass out of the cylinder. All a very good idea when your increasing temperatures by increasing power. Without this the elevated temperatures create hot spots which can result in pre-ignition, surging, etc. For those not familiar, pre-ignition is where the intake charge ignites on the compression stroke before the spark plug fires. So while the piston is still on its way up to compress the intake charge it is meet by an expanding flame front pushing down. Mild detonation has a cumulative destructive effect. Heavy detonation is worse but pre-ignition will destroy an engine very quickly. Too many tuners just reduce timing further rather than enrich the mixture. Additionally on the N18 the exhaust vanos table can be adjusted for minor over scavenging resulting in still cooler temps at a slight loss of performance. Some might balk at that but altering the exhaust timing has much less of an impact on performance as compared to intake. This is of course just my humble opinion as a hobbyist.
Wwwhhhooopppp
#60
11-13-2014, 01:13 PM
No need to re-index on the N18 as there are two tables in the ECU for controlling advance and retard. One for the intake cam and one for the exhaust. Google "vanos tuning" and you'll find lots of info including some rather thorough testing that's been performed. Mostly on BMW's but still applicable. In case anyone wants it here is a link to vanos simulation software. The built in cam profiles are BMW but can be edited to reflect R56 values. Haven't seen any tools for exhaust cam indexing on the N14. Be a bit difficult without reference marks. But if you start from the cam lock position something could be designed.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wtdhqkhfb...wKLZMmnoa?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wtdhqkhfb...wKLZMmnoa?dl=0
#61
11-13-2014, 01:18 PM
OK, so who did the head honing and polishing and what did it cost? I want to do this and know that it is the best way to get the extra hp I'm looking for, just scared of the unknowing and unwilling machine shop to get a hold of my cars head and do a half-arssed job and charge me for doing so..not too many head shops out there with experience with the R56..please tell...
#62
11-13-2014, 04:45 PM
Had to spend some time calming down before I posted this. "Glenmorangie Companta, two fingers worth and kindly make it neat."
I have some good news, and bad news. Good news is the engine is back together with the exception of the timing chain. The bad news is the cam lock tool the shop received is the #@$%&^! N14 cam lock tool. Spent 10 minutes in a mood so foul no one at work would get near me. Calmed down a bit and called them back and gave them ECS Tools phone number but apparently no one in the states has the N18 cam lock tool in stock and the dealer won't rent it. So the correct tool is coming from Germany and the best delivery time they could get is 5 to 15 days even ordering it express. Dealer gave me the same estimate when I ordered the JCW MAP sensor that had to come from Germany but it only took about a week so maybe there is some hope. Think I'll have another now.
I have some good news, and bad news. Good news is the engine is back together with the exception of the timing chain. The bad news is the cam lock tool the shop received is the #@$%&^! N14 cam lock tool. Spent 10 minutes in a mood so foul no one at work would get near me. Calmed down a bit and called them back and gave them ECS Tools phone number but apparently no one in the states has the N18 cam lock tool in stock and the dealer won't rent it. So the correct tool is coming from Germany and the best delivery time they could get is 5 to 15 days even ordering it express. Dealer gave me the same estimate when I ordered the JCW MAP sensor that had to come from Germany but it only took about a week so maybe there is some hope. Think I'll have another now.
#63
11-15-2014, 08:49 AM
Update with pictures of the head going back on with the ARP stud kit. Nice thing about the stud kit besides the more even torque application itself is that also you don't have to replace them like the factory bolts every time you pull a head, plus they make it easier lining everything up.
Four torque steps total with the final at 75 ft/lbs and none of that 90 degree monkey motion that's necessary when using the factory bolts.
Four torque steps total with the final at 75 ft/lbs and none of that 90 degree monkey motion that's necessary when using the factory bolts.
#64
11-15-2014, 11:21 AM
#65
11-15-2014, 12:03 PM
6th Gear
Here's my point of view: we've had a solid hybrid turbo product available for the 1.6L Prince engine for over two years. Yet we've been unable to introduce it to market because no one appears able to tune these cars for boost levels above 17-18psi.
I'd love to see that change.
I'd love to see that change.
Gotta agree with Doug tho, a good dyno tune over 22PSI is ALMOST impossible to find now.
Your best bet would be Thumper460 if he's still in business. I tried but didn't have any luck getting in touch with him. You could also try Jan. He's working on an N14 head. Otherwise you have to do what I did and try to find someone with a good reputation locally and tell them exactly what you want done.
#66
11-15-2014, 04:39 PM
Tuning a fresh engine on top grade fuel is one thing but once you leave that environment things can go south PDQ. If I get a bad tank of gas I want to know right then, not after the damage has accumulated. In addition over time our engines condition changes. Worn rings, a failed PCV system in the valve cover, or a failed bearing seal on the turbo can all increase the oil mist content in the intake charge. This can quickly lower the octane rating of the mixture from 91 to 48 and we know where that would lead.
My second reason for wanting to be aware of knock is because I am learning to tune. Not because I have any aspirations of becoming a tuner for a living. I already make a pretty good living working on jets. But because I prefer to KNOW whats going on in my engine and I dislike have the performance of my vehicle in the hands of another. I'm a bit old school in that I've built several small and big block motors in the past. All for street use with occasional trips to the track. Never managed to get into the 9's in the quarter, but 10.4 was still fun. Not understanding how the ECU operates, or being able to make changes is really not a place I liked to be. I can also be a tiny bit obsessive when I take an interest in a particular subject and consequently have to learn everything about it that I can.
And while I could adjust timing on an eddy current dyno with a pair of tin ears it's not very convenient when evaluating on the street.Last time I heard from Thumper was in August, this year. I swear by his work on my N14 head. I used the following email to contact him --- thumper460@hotmail.com
#67
11-15-2014, 05:23 PM
Forgot to mention earlier that the three knock sensors I'm looking at are the Phormula KS-3, MLabo DKS1, and the Gizzmo K-Lite in that order. Probably end up going with the KS-3 as it has an audio as well as a visual warning and it also has an audio out line that can be connected to a KS-4 or a laptop running a spectrum analyzer with FFT. The KS-4 also has a built in amp so you can listen for knock at the same time.
#68
11-15-2014, 05:59 PM
All these reasons are why I keep coming back to trying to run a stand alone fuel injection. I do think it would be it's own nightmare, though. Our cars are to integrated with all of the electronics. I do know I'd use Fuel Tech if was to go this route. I'd have to a bunch more research before I went that direction. It would open up many doors but I don't think it's a reasonable route to go on a daily driver. I have to keep reeling myself back in and what I want from my car. I have to do the same thing with what I want of my truck too.
#69
11-16-2014, 12:50 PM
Former Vendor
3 - 4 years ago, when AccessPort was popular, Jeff Perrin did my dyno tunes at 14 - 17PSI and 17 - 20PSI. With subsequently added mods, he did remote tuning to 25PSI. These were linear tunes. July 2014 I travelled to Ziptie Dynowerks near Salt Lake City for another AP dyno tune with 28PSI. Don't know if they can tune without the AP. Chart is attached. Note it's a non-linear curve --- awesome performance when boosting. https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...werdynepc2.pdf
Gotta agree with Doug tho, a good dyno tune over 22PSI is ALMOST impossible to find now.
Gotta agree with Doug tho, a good dyno tune over 22PSI is ALMOST impossible to find now.
You must have data logs from the remote-tuning process on that car. Would you share them?
#70
11-16-2014, 01:30 PM
I would think 20psi+ remaps on an S are pretty common now. from my understanding the problem with going a bigger turbo is having a map written so that the ECU can control boost by way of the waste gate if not you end up in limp mode. That's why a JCW is a straight bolt on, with a remap giving Max benefit.
Of cause I'm probably wrong
Of cause I'm probably wrong
#71
11-16-2014, 05:58 PM
6th Gear
My AP datalogs are in a CSV format. Converting to excel on my Mac, a 10 second datalog is too big for a NAM attachment. Send me an email address, via PM, and I'll send back the last datalog I sent to Perrin --- the one he used for his last map.
#72
11-16-2014, 06:45 PM
You'll be close to or exceeding 180 hp/liter, what are your thoughts on the exhaust valves.
I believe the OEM are sodium filled. Did you stay with the OEM or go custom with something like inconel or even sodium filled inconel? (I understand that it would be nice to go with the exotic but the cost of all the different pieces, especially the valve components, start to add up.)
I believe the OEM are sodium filled. Did you stay with the OEM or go custom with something like inconel or even sodium filled inconel? (I understand that it would be nice to go with the exotic but the cost of all the different pieces, especially the valve components, start to add up.)
#73
11-16-2014, 07:03 PM
6th Gear
You'll be close to or exceeding 180 hp/liter, what are your thoughts on the exhaust valves.
I believe the OEM are sodium filled. Did you stay with the OEM or go custom with something like inconel or even sodium filled inconel? (I understand that it would be nice to go with the exotic but the cost of all the different pieces, especially the valve components, start to add up.)
I believe the OEM are sodium filled. Did you stay with the OEM or go custom with something like inconel or even sodium filled inconel? (I understand that it would be nice to go with the exotic but the cost of all the different pieces, especially the valve components, start to add up.)
#74
11-16-2014, 08:15 PM
Believe it or not the ECU's in our cars are very, and I do mean very powerful units. It's also really not that hard to gain full access to them. There are many ECU tuning sites around that often have a section for used equipment and as long as it supports boot mode you should be good to go. Then get your hands on some good tuning software, roll up your sleeves and learn, learn, learn. For hardware I use FG Technologies EOBD2 and WinOLS for software. CMD And Alientech make great hardware also and pretty decent software. There is also the EVC BSL100 hardware that works directly with WinOLS. You can download the demo version of WinOLS to play with and there's even free tuning software like TunerPro available as well. But the hardware and full version software will not be a small investment. Even with shopping around expect to spend in excess of $3000 which puts you in the price range of the Vi-PEC for an R53.
Whether using a standalone system or the factory ECU your going to have a steep learning curve. The big advantage of using the factory one is you have a set of base maps that already work to learn from and it's already calibrated for the various engines sensors you already have. It takes time even then and lots of it. I shudder to think how long it would take to set up a standalone for your first foray.
A good place to start is "Engine Management Advanced Tuning" by Greg Banish. If you can't get thru that I wouldn't go any further. Guys like Nick, Lenny and others know their craft well and can handle the fiddly bits for you. If however you feel like going further try "High Performance Fuel Injections System" also by Greg, "Performance Fuel Injection Systems" by Matt Cramer and "Performance Automotive Engine Math" by John Barchtel. After that you could try checking out the following websites.
www.nefmoto.com
www.ecuremapping.com
www.chiptuners.org
www.ecuedit.com
www.ecuconnections.com
Another great online source for learning to use WinOLS is listed below. The info is primarily concerned with the Bosch EDC15 and EDC16 ECU's but will give you a good base in understanding how Bosch tends to lay out maps and how to use WinOLS. You may need to cut and paste the link in another window.
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxYpxtRjTQYJie-xnCH_Unx4l65Cu6W-r
Last edited by Tigger2011; 11-16-2014 at 09:11 PM.
#75
11-24-2014, 08:09 PM
Yeah! Our friends in Germany came through with die nockenwelle sperrwerkzeug.
Now the cams can be indexed properly and the new vanos bolts installed. Had to order new ones as they're single use only. Also got in new injectors as well since the old ones had been sitting for a while and the fuel had probably varnished inside them. Replacing the seals after removing the injectors is also mandatory unless you want extremely hot combustion gases leaking around the direct injectors. Lots of little things like wiring, fuel rails etc.. back there that probably wouldn't like that. Not to mention the damage it could do to the head itself. Believe it or not it was actually cheaper to order new injectors than it was to order seal kits for the old injectors. Also found out some new info on the fuel pumps. Previous HPFP were set by the factory tune to 120 bar of pressure and run just fine at 150 bar. Mine as a 2014 engine has the newest iteration of HPFP and it's rated at up to 200 bar. Not sure if the fuel rail has ever been tested to that pressure or if the FRP sensor even reads that high. Still it's nice to know the new HPFP has a bit more headroom built in than my old one.
With Thanksgiving coming up and all that entails Tigger will probably not be running again until next week. Nonetheless this will be something else to be thankful for.
Now the cams can be indexed properly and the new vanos bolts installed. Had to order new ones as they're single use only. Also got in new injectors as well since the old ones had been sitting for a while and the fuel had probably varnished inside them. Replacing the seals after removing the injectors is also mandatory unless you want extremely hot combustion gases leaking around the direct injectors. Lots of little things like wiring, fuel rails etc.. back there that probably wouldn't like that. Not to mention the damage it could do to the head itself. Believe it or not it was actually cheaper to order new injectors than it was to order seal kits for the old injectors. Also found out some new info on the fuel pumps. Previous HPFP were set by the factory tune to 120 bar of pressure and run just fine at 150 bar. Mine as a 2014 engine has the newest iteration of HPFP and it's rated at up to 200 bar. Not sure if the fuel rail has ever been tested to that pressure or if the FRP sensor even reads that high. Still it's nice to know the new HPFP has a bit more headroom built in than my old one.
With Thanksgiving coming up and all that entails Tigger will probably not be running again until next week. Nonetheless this will be something else to be thankful for.