Drivetrain M62 dyno numbers
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
WOw you are really on yer game Mr. loder... very good...
Last we heard they were having some fueling issues...........it's been awhile and that thread has all but died.
Bob, I think you've been lucky so far in that your car is still running. Pushing the envelope is fine as long as your willing to accept all the bad things that can happen to your car.
I was talking to a local tuner here in Norcal who races and modifies Audis and VWs. They attempted to develop an M62 package for the NA 4-banger VW engine. Having already experimented with the M45 with positive results they got a customer to donate a mule and forged ahead with the project.
To make a long story short they learned some of the same lessons it appears are being learned with the Mini application - namely while torque got a decent boost, they were having a hell of a time tuning the car. They pushed and pushed and pushed with the end result being a grenaded engine. Final verdict - in order to properly implement the kit, the entire ECU would need to be revamped, each car individually tuned, etc. They stopped there. When I told them the same thing was being tried with the 1.6L MCS engine, they predicted that the kit would never be sold. As one of the tech put it, "that itty bitty engine will not like that 62 at all."
I hope that whoever owns the Mini out here receiving the M7 M62 transplant is as happy with his car as you are Bob. I don't think it's good that we haven't heard anything yet. Screw the numbers for now - it's obvious the kit is nowhere near complete - I'd like to know how that M7 car is doing.
Bob, I think you've been lucky so far in that your car is still running. Pushing the envelope is fine as long as your willing to accept all the bad things that can happen to your car.
I was talking to a local tuner here in Norcal who races and modifies Audis and VWs. They attempted to develop an M62 package for the NA 4-banger VW engine. Having already experimented with the M45 with positive results they got a customer to donate a mule and forged ahead with the project.
To make a long story short they learned some of the same lessons it appears are being learned with the Mini application - namely while torque got a decent boost, they were having a hell of a time tuning the car. They pushed and pushed and pushed with the end result being a grenaded engine. Final verdict - in order to properly implement the kit, the entire ECU would need to be revamped, each car individually tuned, etc. They stopped there. When I told them the same thing was being tried with the 1.6L MCS engine, they predicted that the kit would never be sold. As one of the tech put it, "that itty bitty engine will not like that 62 at all."
I hope that whoever owns the Mini out here receiving the M7 M62 transplant is as happy with his car as you are Bob. I don't think it's good that we haven't heard anything yet. Screw the numbers for now - it's obvious the kit is nowhere near complete - I'd like to know how that M7 car is doing.
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,926
Likes: 40
From: Greensboro, NC
Last we heard they were having some fueling issues...........it's been awhile and that thread has all but died.
Bob, I think you've been lucky so far in that your car is still running. Pushing the envelope is fine as long as your willing to accept all the bad things that can happen to your car.
I was talking to a local tuner here in Norcal who races and modifies Audis and VWs. They attempted to develop an M62 package for the NA 4-banger VW engine. Having already experimented with the M45 with positive results they got a customer to donate a mule and forged ahead with the project.
To make a long story short they learned some of the same lessons it appears are being learned with the Mini application - namely while torque got a decent boost, they were having a hell of a time tuning the car. They pushed and pushed and pushed with the end result being a grenaded engine. Final verdict - in order to properly implement the kit, the entire ECU would need to be revamped, each car individually tuned, etc. They stopped there. When I told them the same thing was being tried with the 1.6L MCS engine, they predicted that the kit would never be sold. As one of the tech put it, "that itty bitty engine will not like that 62 at all."
I hope that whoever owns the Mini out here receiving the M7 M62 transplant is as happy with his car as you are Bob. I don't think it's good that we haven't heard anything yet. Screw the numbers for now - it's obvious the kit is nowhere near complete - I'd like to know how that M7 car is doing.
Bob, I think you've been lucky so far in that your car is still running. Pushing the envelope is fine as long as your willing to accept all the bad things that can happen to your car.
I was talking to a local tuner here in Norcal who races and modifies Audis and VWs. They attempted to develop an M62 package for the NA 4-banger VW engine. Having already experimented with the M45 with positive results they got a customer to donate a mule and forged ahead with the project.
To make a long story short they learned some of the same lessons it appears are being learned with the Mini application - namely while torque got a decent boost, they were having a hell of a time tuning the car. They pushed and pushed and pushed with the end result being a grenaded engine. Final verdict - in order to properly implement the kit, the entire ECU would need to be revamped, each car individually tuned, etc. They stopped there. When I told them the same thing was being tried with the 1.6L MCS engine, they predicted that the kit would never be sold. As one of the tech put it, "that itty bitty engine will not like that 62 at all."
I hope that whoever owns the Mini out here receiving the M7 M62 transplant is as happy with his car as you are Bob. I don't think it's good that we haven't heard anything yet. Screw the numbers for now - it's obvious the kit is nowhere near complete - I'd like to know how that M7 car is doing.
the problem is not bolting them on but revamping the stock ecu. Using the Lucky Dog and Mini Madness turbo project as an example, the kit has yet to be released because John at LDG is so meticulous he won't release the OK until he's worked out the ECU. He's been saying 98% there for almost a year. On the MM car featured in the Euro mag, the ECU was bypassed. Is the Fireballed 400+ hp mini running stock ECU? Bypassing the ECU usually means bypassing emissions.
If you can tune a bigass turbo on the 1.6L I don't see why you can't tune a M62. As far as the M45 being too big, I disagree.
Banned
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,328
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I'm only relating someone else's experience with a different car. I'm far from an expert on the subject so I'm not sure there is anything to be afraid of.
However, I would hope that if there were problems with the M62, be it with DDM or M7, that they would let us know.
There was a lot of bad press on the TC kits in the beginning and for what it's worth, the developers of those kits were very forthcoming in what they were going through. While there were some initial problems, they were soon announcing real numbers - 250, 300, 350, on upwards and a real performance kit for the Mini was born.
At the same time, you could chat with any one of the guys involved and they would openly tell you about any issues they were having with the cars - hell, you still can.
M7 was supposed to announce it's dyno results, what, a couple of weeks ago? Maybe everything is fine and the kit is putting down gobs of power, maybe there are major problems with the kit - no one is talking so no one knows.
Having said that, I think there probably are problems. I sincerely hope that someone's car has not been damaged.
However, I would hope that if there were problems with the M62, be it with DDM or M7, that they would let us know.
There was a lot of bad press on the TC kits in the beginning and for what it's worth, the developers of those kits were very forthcoming in what they were going through. While there were some initial problems, they were soon announcing real numbers - 250, 300, 350, on upwards and a real performance kit for the Mini was born.
At the same time, you could chat with any one of the guys involved and they would openly tell you about any issues they were having with the cars - hell, you still can.
M7 was supposed to announce it's dyno results, what, a couple of weeks ago? Maybe everything is fine and the kit is putting down gobs of power, maybe there are major problems with the kit - no one is talking so no one knows.
Having said that, I think there probably are problems. I sincerely hope that someone's car has not been damaged.
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
I believe that MINI-Madness went with AEM Standalone which is what I remember reading the Eurotuner mag article. Fireballed uses the stock ECU...
If you can tune a bigass turbo on the 1.6L I don't see why you can't tune a M62. As far as the M45 being too big, I disagree.
If you can tune a bigass turbo on the 1.6L I don't see why you can't tune a M62. As far as the M45 being too big, I disagree.
... turbos are free power... and way less heat... to make the same power as the M62 with a turbo.. LOL... takes nothing... and the car is MUCH happier.... this was evident when I drove the R56... it felt just like the Low boost turbo R53s I have driven... the car is not struggling... it just wants to go...
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
I'm only relating someone else's experience with a different car. I'm far from an expert on the subject so I'm not sure there is anything to be afraid of.
However, I would hope that if there were problems with the M62, be it with DDM or M7, that they would let us know.
There was a lot of bad press on the TC kits in the beginning and for what it's worth, the developers of those kits were very forthcoming in what they were going through. While there were some initial problems, they were soon announcing real numbers - 250, 300, 350, on upwards and a real performance kit for the Mini was born.
At the same time, you could chat with any one of the guys involved and they would openly tell you about any issues they were having with the cars - hell, you still can.
However, I would hope that if there were problems with the M62, be it with DDM or M7, that they would let us know.
There was a lot of bad press on the TC kits in the beginning and for what it's worth, the developers of those kits were very forthcoming in what they were going through. While there were some initial problems, they were soon announcing real numbers - 250, 300, 350, on upwards and a real performance kit for the Mini was born.
At the same time, you could chat with any one of the guys involved and they would openly tell you about any issues they were having with the cars - hell, you still can.
Ditto...
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,926
Likes: 40
From: Greensboro, NC
Please don't take this the wrong way...I was not implying that your response was a negative put down on the whole system but rather that your reflection may be closer to the reality than I had wished...I was hoping this whole idea would eventually work out because I was looking forward to this as the next big mod...I hate being pessimistic but I'm not sure where this M62 is going now...
Like Bob, I supported this idea because I wanted to maintain the soul of the R53 and keep the SC...However, for expense of what has been documented so far, I'm not sure the M62 "kit" is feasable as a "do it you self" project anymore...
Like Bob, I supported this idea because I wanted to maintain the soul of the R53 and keep the SC...However, for expense of what has been documented so far, I'm not sure the M62 "kit" is feasable as a "do it you self" project anymore...
I'm only relating someone else's experience with a different car. I'm far from an expert on the subject so I'm not sure there is anything to be afraid of.
However, I would hope that if there were problems with the M62, be it with DDM or M7, that they would let us know.
There was a lot of bad press on the TC kits in the beginning and for what it's worth, the developers of those kits were very forthcoming in what they were going through. While there were some initial problems, they were soon announcing real numbers - 250, 300, 350, on upwards and a real performance kit for the Mini was born.
At the same time, you could chat with any one of the guys involved and they would openly tell you about any issues they were having with the cars - hell, you still can.
M7 was supposed to announce it's dyno results, what, a couple of weeks ago? Maybe everything is fine and the kit is putting down gobs of power, maybe there are major problems with the kit - no one is talking so no one knows.
Having said that, I think there probably are problems. I sincerely hope that someone's car has not been damaged.
However, I would hope that if there were problems with the M62, be it with DDM or M7, that they would let us know.
There was a lot of bad press on the TC kits in the beginning and for what it's worth, the developers of those kits were very forthcoming in what they were going through. While there were some initial problems, they were soon announcing real numbers - 250, 300, 350, on upwards and a real performance kit for the Mini was born.
At the same time, you could chat with any one of the guys involved and they would openly tell you about any issues they were having with the cars - hell, you still can.
M7 was supposed to announce it's dyno results, what, a couple of weeks ago? Maybe everything is fine and the kit is putting down gobs of power, maybe there are major problems with the kit - no one is talking so no one knows.
Having said that, I think there probably are problems. I sincerely hope that someone's car has not been damaged.
Temporarily Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,382
Likes: 2
From: Denver
I have been involved with many one off projects, and the stock ECU is tough to deal with. We built a Lysholm type supercharger kit, and the tuning was painstaking. In the end, it made power, but not enough to justufy the cost of making it all work right.
Turbo kits are the way to go from both an ease of tuning standpoint and ease of power standpoint. Stand alone or twincharge, there simply isn't the same heat or drag associated with a larger roots type supercharger.
I hope this kit works, as it will provide another horsepower option. Hope the tuners at M7 can work it out
. I wish them good luck 
.
Randy
Turbo kits are the way to go from both an ease of tuning standpoint and ease of power standpoint. Stand alone or twincharge, there simply isn't the same heat or drag associated with a larger roots type supercharger.
I hope this kit works, as it will provide another horsepower option. Hope the tuners at M7 can work it out
. I wish them good luck .Randy
To answer your question, if you saw the video... Spring 2007 is all they've said...
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,705
Likes: 3
From: Chattanooga, TN
Wow, the view of the M62 turned quick.
Just a couple of months ago there was big interest. Now it is in disfavor.
Not to ingnore the info so far, but we should just wait for the vendors to let us know what is available when.
Just a couple of months ago there was big interest. Now it is in disfavor.
Not to ingnore the info so far, but we should just wait for the vendors to let us know what is available when.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,731
Likes: 0
From: Anaheim, CA
Both Tuls and Randy have said that a turbo generates less heat than a supercharger. I'm confused, doesn't this apply to the heat of the intake air as opposed to heat in the engine compartment? You don't see any red hot superchargers out there.
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
no but headers glow just the same... take the heat shield off the header... go for a good run... it will glow red just like the Turbo...
turbos are free energy.. SCs are parasitic... not saying everyone should go Turbo... saying I can see why there are issues to be worked out.. and or may never come to fruition...
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
no but headers glow just the same... take the heat shield off the header... go for a good run... it will glow red just like the Turbo...
turbos are free energy.. SCs are parasitic... not saying everyone should go Turbo... saying I can see why there are issues to be worked out.. and or may never come to fruition...
turbos are free energy.. SCs are parasitic... not saying everyone should go Turbo... saying I can see why there are issues to be worked out.. and or may never come to fruition...
The Mercedes SLR is SC.... it's not like they don't have merit......
Not quite free
Turbos run off the heat of the exhaust, but you also pay with exhaust backpressure. The final cost is a lot less than the loss via a belt drive supercharger.... But peak power will be the land of turbos. For now and for ever.
Matt
Matt
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
that's not a 1.6L.... LOL
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
Turbos run off the heat of the exhaust, but you also pay with exhaust backpressure. The final cost is a lot less than the loss via a belt drive supercharger.... But peak power will be the land of turbos. For now and for ever.
again... I don't want this to become a debate like I don't like the SC or SC cars... just seems there are issues.... I thought there would be issues before this was started....hence why I never pursued it and well since I know not what is going on... one can only think the worst after this amount of time... especially since my original idea of such a mod was that it would be an issue
Last edited by Tüls; Feb 9, 2007 at 08:33 AM.
Temporarily Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,382
Likes: 2
From: Denver
Obviously, the supercharger has merit - our cars came with one! There are specific parameters you can design for, and if power is your most important design parameter, then a turbo is the way to go.
Superchargers are great because of the possible low end, but they have ot be sized correctly to avoid the loss of that. If what you are after is good power mid and top end, then a larger supercharger can do that, but at a greater cost than the turbo. If what you are after is bottom end, then use the standard supercharger or go with a different supercharger with more efficiency.
There are always advantages and disadvantages to one system. The supercharger has advantages, the twincharge has advantages, and a turbo only has advantages. I have been happy with the twincharge set up because it is a symbiotic set up - the supercharger increases exhaust gas velocity which spins the turbine on the turbo faster and the compressor side of the turbo then helps with thermal efficiencies.
No matter which route is taken, there is always a cost of doing business. The turbo is through increased backpressure - the exhaust gas is what is used to spin the turbine side of the turbo, which has to drive the compressor to force induce the intake charge. The supercharger is direct drag on the crank through the belt - the bigger the supercharger and more boost you are asking for, the more drag you have.
Like I said above, the development on this is difficult and takes serious talent. I hope the resources are there to make this kit happen to provide one more option. I have decided not to pursue a turbo only or a lysholm, centrifugal, or larger roots supercharger kit only because it takes so much time and design work, and in the end the cost of a good kit is prohibitive to almost all of the customers out there. That means that for the maximum effort it takes to put one of these kits together, the return is minimal.
I would love to see all three options available - twincharge, turbo only, and larger supercharger. There are reasons for all of them.
I'd like to hear more from M7 on how the development is going on their car - hope they are making progress .
Hope that helps!
Randy
Superchargers are great because of the possible low end, but they have ot be sized correctly to avoid the loss of that. If what you are after is good power mid and top end, then a larger supercharger can do that, but at a greater cost than the turbo. If what you are after is bottom end, then use the standard supercharger or go with a different supercharger with more efficiency.
There are always advantages and disadvantages to one system. The supercharger has advantages, the twincharge has advantages, and a turbo only has advantages. I have been happy with the twincharge set up because it is a symbiotic set up - the supercharger increases exhaust gas velocity which spins the turbine on the turbo faster and the compressor side of the turbo then helps with thermal efficiencies.
No matter which route is taken, there is always a cost of doing business. The turbo is through increased backpressure - the exhaust gas is what is used to spin the turbine side of the turbo, which has to drive the compressor to force induce the intake charge. The supercharger is direct drag on the crank through the belt - the bigger the supercharger and more boost you are asking for, the more drag you have.
Like I said above, the development on this is difficult and takes serious talent. I hope the resources are there to make this kit happen to provide one more option. I have decided not to pursue a turbo only or a lysholm, centrifugal, or larger roots supercharger kit only because it takes so much time and design work, and in the end the cost of a good kit is prohibitive to almost all of the customers out there. That means that for the maximum effort it takes to put one of these kits together, the return is minimal.
I would love to see all three options available - twincharge, turbo only, and larger supercharger. There are reasons for all of them.
I'd like to hear more from M7 on how the development is going on their car - hope they are making progress
.Hope that helps!
Randy
5th Gear
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 923
Likes: 1
From: Southern IL
Now route your intake air next to that header.
Turbos are not free power. There's a pumping loss while the engine tries to generate enough exhaust flow to spin the exhaust turbine. Until there is postive pressure being generated by the compressor the turbo is taking power away from the engine.
Turbos are not free power. There's a pumping loss while the engine tries to generate enough exhaust flow to spin the exhaust turbine. Until there is postive pressure being generated by the compressor the turbo is taking power away from the engine.
