Drivetrain Installing Fireballed Head and Schrick cam this month.
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Las Vegas
very VERY true. these engines are massed produced. While they are the same engine, not all of the parts are exactly the same. Like im sure not all the pistons are within 1 gram weight difference like you would see on race pistons/rods. Tolerances are most likely not as close as they could be, if they were all hand built. Pistons rings might be slightly different, changing compression. The list goes on, not every stock engine will perform the same even if they were all put on the same dyno.
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2004
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dyno tunes are waaaay better than a flash tune.
when you have the car up on the dyno adjusting a/f ratio for every 50rpm. for your exact setup, the results are awesome.
"cookie cutter" ECU flashes, are ok...but not the best, as they provide a generic performce setup for what they "think" would work well.
everyones setup is different. some cars exhaust might flow a little more, some intakes might work a little better, someones head might flow more...ect...ect...
Thats why putting your car up on a dyno and having it tuned, is the best option. The performance gained vs. a ECU flash is far greater and you can squeeze out the full potential of any mods you have done to the car.
when you have the car up on the dyno adjusting a/f ratio for every 50rpm. for your exact setup, the results are awesome.
"cookie cutter" ECU flashes, are ok...but not the best, as they provide a generic performce setup for what they "think" would work well.
everyones setup is different. some cars exhaust might flow a little more, some intakes might work a little better, someones head might flow more...ect...ect...
Thats why putting your car up on a dyno and having it tuned, is the best option. The performance gained vs. a ECU flash is far greater and you can squeeze out the full potential of any mods you have done to the car.
I agree with your thoughts regarding dyno tuning, but I would be concerned on our MINI's because of the difficulty in reproducing the correct air flow through the i/c for the purpose of tuning the ecu. Are there tuners that have a method for addressing that area?
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Infinity and beyond
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Las Vegas
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Las Vegas
Mizer, is there someone in the Jacksonville area that can dyno tune the MINI?
I agree with your thoughts regarding dyno tuning, but I would be concerned on our MINI's because of the difficulty in reproducing the correct air flow through the i/c for the purpose of tuning the ecu. Are there tuners that have a method for addressing that area?
I agree with your thoughts regarding dyno tuning, but I would be concerned on our MINI's because of the difficulty in reproducing the correct air flow through the i/c for the purpose of tuning the ecu. Are there tuners that have a method for addressing that area?
)BUT...as for the air over the IC. It would be like any other IC'ed car. (hard to believe, but the MINI isnt the only car with a IC that gets dyno tuned) Like for instance a MkII Toyota Mr2 with a side mount IC. No air is going to be going over it except for the air produced by the shop fans while its on the dyno. Unless they have an aftermarket fan hooked up to it, which still will not produce wind speeds as high as on the street. Infact i think the fans at the dyno shop would favor the MCS more then a Mr2 because their IC is on the side near the rear wheel and the MCS is on the front.
No shop fans are gonna be able to duplicate 60-70mph winds while its on the dyno. So all IC'ed cars suffer a little, some more then others. But its still the best route to take for performance. Unless you have a lap-top computer mounted in your passanger seat and you can tune it while driving. Probably not the safest way.
Not to get off topic, but what about running a electric leaf blower (mine is rated at 265 mph) in front of the IC to flow more air over it than a fan? Would that even benefit the IC more-so than one of the shop fans?
Just curious...
Just curious...
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Metro NY
like I said... My 164 whp was an anomoly... when I posted that # it was in reference to the gains I made with mods... I know 164 is high... like I said I was pulling on people with pully, intake exhaust... people said "you need to dyno that thing!" so I did...LOL...
I have seen the 135 whp range as well... but with the newer motor I have also seen 170 whp stock...so as we have all discussed on here for years... there seems to be a 30 HP variance.... no biggie... just that if you have 130 WHP stock... you will have trouble getting to 200 WHP for sure... but if you are like me or some of the cars I have done... you can get there with out a head... LOL... crazy... yes... but it's there...
also just so you know i am not crazy LOL... I took the car to the track when stock.. ran 92 MPH...that's accually 170 WHP... running a 15.1 ... I really did alot of testing cause I was so suprised...
as far as the head... I don't know what to tell you... have you broken going there? what's going on that you say you "can't safely"
I have seen the 135 whp range as well... but with the newer motor I have also seen 170 whp stock...so as we have all discussed on here for years... there seems to be a 30 HP variance.... no biggie... just that if you have 130 WHP stock... you will have trouble getting to 200 WHP for sure... but if you are like me or some of the cars I have done... you can get there with out a head... LOL... crazy... yes... but it's there...
also just so you know i am not crazy LOL... I took the car to the track when stock.. ran 92 MPH...that's accually 170 WHP... running a 15.1 ... I really did alot of testing cause I was so suprised...
as far as the head... I don't know what to tell you... have you broken going there? what's going on that you say you "can't safely"
No biggie; it's actually quite huge.
20% variance? I've never seen anything remotely close. Biggest I've ever seen is 4%. This is why posting dyno numbers without knowing all the variables is a waste of time.
No, I've never broken one. But when I have run up a stock head past 7500 the power dropped precipitously.
What else can I say?
Last edited by dmh; Oct 9, 2006 at 04:16 PM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Metro NY
dyno tunes are waaaay better than a flash tune.
when you have the car up on the dyno adjusting a/f ratio for every 50rpm. for your exact setup, the results are awesome.
"cookie cutter" ECU flashes, are ok...but not the best, as they provide a generic performce setup for what they "think" would work well.
everyones setup is different. some cars exhaust might flow a little more, some intakes might work a little better, someones head might flow more...ect...ect...
Thats why putting your car up on a dyno and having it tuned, is the best option. The performance gained vs. a ECU flash is far greater and you can squeeze out the full potential of any mods you have done to the car.
now as far as valve float....just put in a custom grind hallow cam shaft, with dual high rev valve springs and aim for that 11k mark. If Hondas can do it, we should be able to.
when you have the car up on the dyno adjusting a/f ratio for every 50rpm. for your exact setup, the results are awesome.
"cookie cutter" ECU flashes, are ok...but not the best, as they provide a generic performce setup for what they "think" would work well.
everyones setup is different. some cars exhaust might flow a little more, some intakes might work a little better, someones head might flow more...ect...ect...
Thats why putting your car up on a dyno and having it tuned, is the best option. The performance gained vs. a ECU flash is far greater and you can squeeze out the full potential of any mods you have done to the car.
now as far as valve float....just put in a custom grind hallow cam shaft, with dual high rev valve springs and aim for that 11k mark. If Hondas can do it, we should be able to.
Custom tuning is available and I have been doing MoTec systems for close to 18 years now. Your point is?
You are sadly misinformed, however, if you think that the best tunes come off the dyno. Manufactures take the dyno data and apply it in real world situations. And that same idea is in action when you see tuning done at the track: drag or road race.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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what is that?
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Infinity and beyond
It's not an anomaly if you seen it just a few times and you say you have: your car and the 170 car.
No biggie; it's actually quite huge.
20% variance? I've never seen anything remotely close. Biggest I've ever seen is 4%. This is why posting dyno numbers without knowing all the variables is a waste of time.
No, I've never broken one. But when I have run up a stock head past 7500 the power dropped precipitously.
What else can I say?
No biggie; it's actually quite huge.
20% variance? I've never seen anything remotely close. Biggest I've ever seen is 4%. This is why posting dyno numbers without knowing all the variables is a waste of time.
No, I've never broken one. But when I have run up a stock head past 7500 the power dropped precipitously.
What else can I say?
as for the power drop off over 7500 there are many reasons this can happen... if it's a stock pullied car I'd say the tune was a problem... or the pulley was too small to be reving that high... the list goes on from there I would say that's my first guess... but I dunno I wasn't there
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Infinity and beyond
as for the hair.. that's from going so fast
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Hampton, VA
What was the OD percentage on the SC pulley?
I'm thinking you proved that spinning the M45 over 14K RPM for extended periods is a bad thing
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
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From: Oregon, USA
You are correct and all that is described on my web site. But what you failed to address is the theme of my question: how does Fireball get to 8500 rpm without problems? He claims it still is making power up there in the stock configuration.
Our Stage 2 addresses all expect the hydraulics. Wegner can get the rpm up to NASCAR level but it requires, as I mentioned, a large sum of money to purchase the exotic materials. The CNC porting is less than $800; the rest of the money is for the valve train components.
Our Stage 2 addresses all expect the hydraulics. Wegner can get the rpm up to NASCAR level but it requires, as I mentioned, a large sum of money to purchase the exotic materials. The CNC porting is less than $800; the rest of the money is for the valve train components.
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Infinity and beyond
it was way over 14k...LOL... like 20K
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
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From: Infinity and beyond
yeah.... pretty much.....at 7k with stock pulley its 14k....then with a 15% it's almost 17... but I was oooh a little over 7k...heh... with a 15%.... it was mostly the prolonged rev.... just too much heat for that about of time.... good times
good times
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Phoenix, AZ
To this I can attest! My wimpy 2003 with Alta 15% an Alta intake could barely keep up with his car. Only in certain RPM ranges would my modded MCS pull on his car. Chris's car was a godsend from the factory. Very strong!
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Metro NY
I highly doubt it.