I'll be happy at 7250-maybe 7500 and a less than perfect car

 

Really? That is the first time I have ever heard someone say that about heads. I thought the goal was to increase VE, and thus make more power.

Maybe its different in the MINI world, but everywhere I have been, be it mustangs, camaros, jeeps, you name it, getting heads flowing has been the big thing to look at.

If you aren't looking for more flow, especially on the exhaust side, please tell me what one would look for?

Bob,

How customizable is the uni?

 

Pulled from the Precision web site:
You need not be too overly concerned with flow numbers. Wegner's Busch engines lose the flow race every time but they still run at the front of the pack. Why? Because they understand flow is only one part of the equation that concerns, among other factors, inertia, swirl, tumble, and the injector trough. And yes, they do test and measure these factors.
For instance, if you take dye and run it through the stock Mini head and injectors you will see a 1" wide path in the cylinder. Do that with the Wegner head and you will see a 3" wide path. This eliminates the "puddling effect" and enables you to lean out the fuel, run less timing, and make more power.
It's not all about who shows the most flow at the top end but about how you get there.

But flow is all a guy with a die grinder and flow bench can demonstrate. He cannot replicate his work nor can he test tumble and swirl. And how many poeple who purport to do heads understands the injector spray pattern in the cylinder? Until you can measure these things you're just guessing.

You need to be able to study and design on a computer program the shape and size of the exhaust port for optimal effiency. You are searching for inertia. And yes, Wegner can measure it.

 

You are completly right and that was my point

 

oh shush you are going to give away secrets!

ha ha... just teasing... good stuff...

 

You know Don, sometimes you forget that some of us actually understand engines and how they work.

 

before i go rant...im going to ask for some clarification (what a novelty huh )

what do you mean that you begin to lose control even below 6000rpm on a stock head? You aren't implying that the car is floating the valves are you?

 

an engine dyno? yes of course thats the best thing... i think that might be a little extreme and not cost effective for 99% of the mini community and what they are trying to accomplish with there car.

 

Are you disagreeing with what Don is saying or offended that he provided a more detailed explanation for why flow numbers alone are not an effective measure of how good a head is?

 

i deleted my post it was to long and unclear and seen as stiring the pot... even though i gave respect and compliments to those who i was talking about... i think its more of an issue of me not having enough time this morning to throughly write something that properly communicate what i mean...

 

Neither. I am glad he posted for people who don't understand those design elements. He initially posted that flow is not important. I beg to differ, as it goes against just about everything I have ever learned. Had he qualified his original statement "flow is not the only thing to consider" perhaps I would not have been so course in my following line of question. Don has been a great asset to me in the past, I just was curious as to what he considered a more important number to look at.

So as one of the reasons I never post on NAM, have a differing opinion and get blasted. In my own MINI community I have more mods than 90% of my fellow Motorers. A lot of them value my opinion because frankly, I have tried lots of different products and have fairly sound advice to give.

The original reason I even posted to this thread was for the dude not to get his hopes up. So many times people will throw out claims to power adders, people believe them, buy product and go and hit the dyno only to be disappointed.

I'm not doubting the power that the FBTR product makes nor DMH's. I am sure that they both sell a quality product at a fair price. I have seen countless people both in the MINI world and outside of it, who buy products, get the hopes that they will see all this power and go visit a dyno to be disappointed. On our cars, without a proper fan setup, you will never really see anywhere near the "peak" numbers your car makes on the streets.

I certainly didn't expect to be attacked for offering this line of thought.


I actually inquired privately about some of FBTR products with Tuls. Sadly the one I am most interested in, isnt available in my area yet, but will probably be one of my next purchases once it is.

 

TampaMCS - PM sent

 

Yes, and that is why torque falls off around that point. The spring setup and valves are simply too heavy for the stock setup not to lose it there. Special properties do not apply to the Mini: it is the same with all cars where the torque begins to fall.

 

I might have made a mistake: Where did I write that?
Flow is only one factor that you are looking for and it is not the most important.

 

"Heads: Flow is not what you are chasing."

Sorry if I misunderstood where you were going with that.

 

And that is true. Flow is important but not the most when it comes to making power. (I never said it was not important.)

 

If you are trying to go fast and claim that you are the fastest Mini then having access to someone with an engine dyno and testing equipment is vitally important. If you are going to spend over $2000 on a head don't you want it done by professionals like Wegner who are in the business of racing?

 

Im not claiming to be all knowing by anymeans so please don't take this post that way.

I am not claiming to have the fastest MINI. It is a fact. No one has made it publically known that they have run a faster time without the use of nitrous or a turbo. Heck we even ran it on a complete street tire NOT DRAG RADIALS!

I am not saying that Wegner products are bad. Im sure there products are great, but just because they use a bunch of high tech machinery doesn't mean that they will always yeild the best product for every client. For example Dinan uses his expenisve machinery to produce products that honestly don't make a lot of horsepower. I personally would NEVER purchase one of his products. Are they bad products? NO, absolutley not. They just don't meet my expections for dollar/hp etc...

If I was going to look to buy a cylinder head (which i wouldn't because I make them) but if i was to purchase a cylinder head i wouldn't just purchase a cylinder head because someone has a fancy piece of machinery and claims that to be better. I would rather see RESULTS. Sure flow tests and diagrams and graphs and whatever else you can come up with are a type of result but i guess i am more interested in real world results... dyno number drag times. More of final outcomes i guess.


I guess its the racer coming out in me and not the engineer in me, but anytime you want to compare timeslips im game

 

I thought we went through this already: Doesn't Randy Webb purport to have the fastest Mini?

 

Apples and oranges. Randy is a road racer, isellem from the drag world.

 

i don't know what you are talking about. i must have missed that thread. what 1/4 times has he ran. I will gladly remove my title when it is beaten... however... actually it just means i will go out and hit the track again! I love this stuff!

 

Actually we have the fastest Mini! 10.6 @ 128mph. oh yeah and a 1.6 60'

 

true true! Congrats guys!!!!!!!!! tell chris i said hello!

 

True, but you guys have one of those turbo-thingees stuck on the engine.

isellem's ride does not have that benefit.

Can't wait till you guys do single digits, Pomona perhaps?

 

When randy goes out and runs his car and goes faster than 10.6 he will have the worlds fastest... untill that time you can not have the fastest MINI if the MINI did not make a pass at the track...


worlds fastest mini not worlds fastest mini driver...

I have been road racing a very long time... not including doing laps around my house with my tractor as fast as I could... but my driving skill has nothing to do with the car... it's mine...

My point... Randy may be turning the fastest laps... but that to me is more skill than car...or lack of competition... etc... who knows....

not to say Hubie didn't drive the heck outta the M600.... man that was crazy!

ok so back on topic...

we have reved the STOCK HEAD to over 8500 RPM... she made power all the way out.. no float... but who am I to share such things...

Mario... you will be pleased... that I am sure of... see you soon