Not true...........

You have the "QUICKEST" MINI.........

The fastest I believe is the gentleman who ran the MINI S at the Nevada Open Road Challenge last year (http://www.sscc.us/results-05-norc.htm check out the 1 mile shoot-out results).

Not to take anything away from what you guys have done

 

I remember that!...sounds like fun... although not the standard for mesurement of how fast a car is to my knowledge... the strip is used around the world.... not that top end isn't fun.... LOL I hit a hill my self... or I think she woulda gone faster

 

You haven't changed the gearing in the M600?!

 

220whp? No way dude. Takes more than head and cam and a flash. I know...been there done that. With ported head, Schrick race cam, intake, SC reduct, header, exhaust, and ECU I am not even there yet....but will get there. Post some dyno results when ya get em.....

 

nope... stock 05 tranny.... stock LSD...

 

Tuls, I know you're aware of the accumulated experience on NAM, all of which concludes that 200+ WHP is difficult to achieve, even with a head, etc. It sounds like the new Fireballed software breaks through that barrier by attacking "the final frontier" of MINI tuning, the ECU...

Would you be comfortable attributing a 'range' of hp to the ECU programming of the Fireballed! programming? Or put another way, would it be accurate to say something along the lines of "the Fireballed! ECU program can be expected to add anywhere from X to Y hp beyond your existing programming, but the addition is dependant on your mods and current tune"?

Just trying to get a handle on what you've accomplished versus the previous "state of knowledge".

 

Uh oh, you just went down the same path I did.

I think the key here is in the ECU, sure the head and cam is going to give some great power, but for almost ALL of us who have been chasing that dam 200hp demon proper ecu tune will probably show us better results than we previously saw possible. I hope for all of our sake that these things DO pan out for MarioKart, that only means good things for the rest of us.

 

HHMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........................

just me...................

Thumper

 

I would be curious too see how the FBT package does. If you can get 220whp out of it, then good for you.

 

when I wasn't fireballed... I was out there testing minis... and was making 195 WHP on minis with out a head...My personal MINI was making 164 WHP stock then 188 WHP with 15% pulley, Benfer intake, UUC exhaust untuned all in 100 degrees + weather.... @ 2000 feet above sea level... LOL... WITH NO HEAD... the HP number isn't what matters... it's the gains.... and I think that's where people get lost.... if your stock HP was 130 WHP... ok... but then you should net X amount with X mods.... not 220 WHP garunteed... it's relative gains... my point.... if you are telling me the heads you guys use only make 5-15 HP... you are getting ripped off... or something is very wrong with your car....

I do not know everything.... I just know that I have pushed my own MINI WAY beyond the point that people claim to be possible or drivable... when pullied... and now turbo...
to quote Paul Webster about our weekend in Englishtown.... " I learn't so much this past weekend, mainly..... THE IMPOSSIBLE IS POSSIBLE "

 

I will keep you posted on my results. I have a feeling it is 80% is in the tune, becuase I have had many cars "chipped" in the past and felt nothing and some of the software companies were the top players in the industry. When I had my Mini done at Fireballed, it was crazy the difference it made. So I feel the head &combo will not be a let down know matter what. I will get a before and after dyno so that is fair for everyone.
Wish me luck.
Mario

 

Amen.

 

Check me if I'm wrong but something seems amiss. Your MCS is making 164 WHP (that is the DIN HP Mini lists)? Or 164 HP at the flywheel? A couple of us here in NJ/NY/PA have quite a bit a data on the MCS and on average we see 135 WHP for 2002-2004s & 140 WHP for 2005s and up. With a 15% pulley and MTH software it goes up about 27% (a good deal higher with an MTH/MoTec custom tune).

How do you not get valve float at 8500 RPM with the stock intake valves and spring setup? There are mathematical formulas that head shops use to determine where float begins to occur and from where I see the torque fall off the intake valves begin to float around 6000.

 

"begin to float" the question is where does it lose control...... does it go from control to no control or is it more analog where is loses control more gradually.....what is the effect of the amount of float......we experience at 6000-6500

 

According to those I work with (and they are in the professional race business -- NASCAR, Grand Am, NHRA, AMA) there is no control of the stock intake valve above 7000 rpm; nor can there be. It begins to float at around 6000; you can see it in the torque curve. And 6-7k rpm goes by quickly! The only way we know to make a valve train rev so high is with exotic metals.

 

Thanks for the quick reply..... my forays above 6000 are short .... I know for the track purpose built cars this is not enough..... my feeling is that for my style of driving that my valve train should be fine... honestly, I do not know if the WMS head has special springs or not..... the valves are larger but that is really all I know

 

there are many factors that can cause the torque to fall off as rpm rises other than valve float. there are also many minis that are revving way past 7500 and still getting power without any apparent valve-piston contact.
Valve control is a function of the rpm, reciprocating weight of the valve train, the spring, the hydraulic lash adjuster and the cam lobe contour and lift...how many of these does the Wegner stage 1 head (or the Web or the M7 or the Endyn) address? As I recall, 9200 rpm was acheivable with the full blown Wegner stage 3?

 

You are correct and all that is described on my web site. But what you failed to address is the theme of my question: how does Fireball get to 8500 rpm without problems? He claims it still is making power up there in the stock configuration.
Our Stage 2 addresses all expect the hydraulics. Wegner can get the rpm up to NASCAR level but it requires, as I mentioned, a large sum of money to purchase the exotic materials. The CNC porting is less than $800; the rest of the money is for the valve train components.

 

I completely understand what you mean... I am very carful to type WHP vs HP... I know that 164 is the DIN HP Mini lists which is funny... and the only reason I dynoed stock was cause I was pulling on people with mods and pullies.. where I had none! LOL

since I personally have done well over 300 pulls on the dyno with just MY MINI in various stages...(not watch someone do it) let alone all the other pulls with other cars... whether tuning or testing... I have seen a great range of stock #s... stock to super modifed... TQ ussually falls off after it peaks... (on my car around 4000) which is where HP takes over to red line.. (which is set way over 6000)

If there is one thing I have learned... mathematical formulas are where you start... but accually doing the testing is where it's proven.

Talking about NASCAR, Grand Am, etc is apples and oranges... the MINI is a boosted car thathas a tiny revy motor... NASCAR deals with N/A V8s... imports have been reving to 9000 for 10+ years... it's very similar... it's a 1.6L it's happiest above 5k all the way to 9k... the only limiting factor is the SC pulley you might have... cause the SC is inefficent over it's RPM range...

anyway... I don't want to go round and round... (that's not why I am here)

I am not telling you you are wrong.... only what I know from expirence... I do not bench race... sure it starts on the bench... to eliminate as much breaking of stuff as possible... but in the end it is tested in the real world... heck we just ran that 10.6 on a stock motor running 30+ lbs of boost and reving to 8800 what more can I say LOL

 

--Concerning 164 (W)HP did you conclude your dyno was reading about 18% too high?

--I understand all that about V8s and 1.6L s/c cars. But it still is not answering what I'm searching for because basic principles still apply concerning the weight of the intake valve, spring, and retainer. Both spring suppliers I use have independently tested and commented that the stock setup is woefully inadequate above 6000 rpm. You can rev it higher but with diminishing results.

--So what you are saying is that you run stock head parts (valves, springs, retainers, rockers, etc.) with just porting?

 

please do not insult me... it was not my dyno at the time and I checked it against 3 others...



Stock means stock.. there was no porting... nothing was changed it was stock...

 

It was a question, not a barb. I'm only asking for clarification purposes.
--My data shows on average that a MCS makes between 135-140 WHP and your data shows 164 WHP (just as Mini says it makes at the crank).
--You are able to rev safely to 8800 rpm with the stock head. I can't.

 

like I said... My 164 whp was an anomoly... when I posted that # it was in reference to the gains I made with mods... I know 164 is high... like I said I was pulling on people with pully, intake exhaust... people said "you need to dyno that thing!" so I did...LOL...

I have seen the 135 whp range as well... but with the newer motor I have also seen 170 whp stock...so as we have all discussed on here for years... there seems to be a 30 HP variance.... no biggie... just that if you have 130 WHP stock... you will have trouble getting to 200 WHP for sure... but if you are like me or some of the cars I have done... you can get there with out a head... LOL... crazy... yes... but it's there...

also just so you know i am not crazy LOL... I took the car to the track when stock.. ran 92 MPH...that's accually 170 WHP... running a 15.1 ... I really did alot of testing cause I was so suprised...

as far as the head... I don't know what to tell you... have you broken going there? what's going on that you say you "can't safely"

 

dyno tunes are waaaay better than a flash tune.

when you have the car up on the dyno adjusting a/f ratio for every 50rpm. for your exact setup, the results are awesome.

"cookie cutter" ECU flashes, are ok...but not the best, as they provide a generic performce setup for what they "think" would work well.

everyones setup is different. some cars exhaust might flow a little more, some intakes might work a little better, someones head might flow more...ect...ect...

Thats why putting your car up on a dyno and having it tuned, is the best option. The performance gained vs. a ECU flash is far greater and you can squeeze out the full potential of any mods you have done to the car.

now as far as valve float....just put in a custom grind hallow cam shaft, with dual high rev valve springs and aim for that 11k mark. If Hondas can do it, we should be able to.

 

We have a member in S. Fla that pulled back to back 166 Hp runs stock...

There we pullied people who were in complete disbelief. It is very possible for some cars to be much stronger than others from the get go.