I just posted this in Beneath the Bonnet froum, but I though I'd re-post it here since it may be modification driven. Due to my lazy nature, I copied and pasted from the '100 octane..good or bad' thread.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by dominicminicoopers
??????????

You can have a stock ECU map and get ping / timing retard issues that can be resolved by going to a higher octane. "


I just mixed in some "Trick 101" fuel in my '04 S to get me to about 94-95 octane for the entire tank. I took the car out and ran it pretty good for a few miles and my pinging has gone away...took is out two other times today just to make sure. I believe I started getting the pings when my 15% pulley was installed...could be I was just more 'interested' in the car and what it was doing...Anyways, to my point/question. The 101 octane gas that I put in costs $5.99/gallon. At current 91 octane prices here in Arizona, that equates to about a $45 fill up or an increase of about $13 per tank. Does anyone have any good experiences with octane boosters? I tried both STP and Lucas brands and didn't get very good results. I saw talk of a product called Torco on a Vette forum. Any experience with that? The other mods I have done in effort to elminate the pinging are NGK colder plugs and getting a JCW flash from my local MINI dealer. Would a MTH/GIAC tune be more apropriate for my issue? Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice!

 

Glad you saw the greatness of 100 octane! I always laugh when people say that it doesn't help...it certainly does. I'm from AZ as well, and its almost a necessity here if you want to get the most out of your S, especially in the heat.

I have no experience with octane boosters, so can't help ya there. I recently just got a MTH tuner file, and I told them to make it for 91 octane...but pinging/timing retard seems to be even more now. I need to get back on the dyno to make sure, and then I'm going to have MTH try and tweak it a bit. I also had them make a 100 octane file, and I just got the chance to use that with a almost full tank of pure 100 octane. Now THAT is amazing...so smooth and no timing retard felt what so ever, and the power increase is crazy. The only thing is...I can't afford $70 tanks of gas...haha its good to know that I can get all the extra power if need be though.

 

Octane boosters are a waste of money. Each "point" they raise the octane corresponds to a 10th of an octane number. To get to 95 octane from 91 octane with octane boosters would require almost 3/4ths of the MINI's gas tank to be filled with octane boosters. At what cost vs. 101 octane racing unleaded???? Also, if you suffer emission control system damage from the octane boosters, you are on your own for the repair. To be sold at retail, the 101 octane racing unleaded must not damage the emission control system.

The only downside to the 101 octane racing unleaded is its addictive nature. I have to blend in the 100 octane stuff with the 91 octane pisswater in California for my Corvette - the only downside is that the Corvette is tethered to gas stations that sell the 100 octane racing unleaded gas....

 

Check these out:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...hlight=toluene

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...hlight=toluene


Jim

 

I see the light! But honestly, at this point, I'm not as worried about the performance aspect as I am the well being of my car. It was nice driving it around and not wincing when the pinging started though. As caminifan suggested, I may have a new addiction...crack for my MINI :impatient

 

Thanks for the links
I don't know that the homebrew is such a good idea for me...

 

The thread below journals some of the best work performed to reduce pinging or detonation that I've seen on NAM. It is Dr. Obnxs's work to reduce the effect of the timing retard that robs us of power.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ght=detonation

I highly recommend you read the thread. It requires patience, but I think you'll find it rewarding.

Generally, mods that lower temps (for example, by insulating the intake system, venting heat out of the engine compartment, making the intercooler more efficient and effective, etc.) all help to reduce detonation. The higher the ambient temps and the lower the octane, the greater the challenge.

Less-expensive options are:
> bigger hood scoops to cool the intercooler (e.g., M7)
> M7's 180-degree thermostat to reduce coolant temp
> various methods of heat-shielding the intake.
More expensive include bigger/better ICs from various vendors, hood vents, and so on.

Although some of the more expensive mods seem like a lot of $$, after you mix 50% 100-octane gas long enough they may be paid for faster than you might think. I haven't gone to an after-market IC -- yet -- but it might be in my future if the hood scoop I've just ordered from Palo Uber doesn't improve the stock IC efficiency enough. Of course, I'm in CA, so my challenge isn't as great as yours.

There are other NAM threads on "detonation", "heat-soak", "pinging", and "knock" that may help also. Recommend you search on those. You may find that some mods will at least allow you to reduce the amount of higher-octane fuel needed to eliminate pinging. If you do the math, you might find that some are even cost-effective (vs. better, more expensive gas) if total elimination of pinging is your goal.

Best of luck.

 

my take on it is that higher octanes go hand in hand with compression(old school) and higher cylinder temps. in general. high octane tends to burn at these temps . instead of detonating. so as you raised your cyl. temps. 15% pulley you could have gone with colder plugs or in your case better gas .

 

But I did go with colder plugs. It was actually the first thing I tried.

See the attachment for what the Torco people sent me.
http://www.torco.com/cart.php?m=product_list&c=2

At the least expensive, it goes for $7.43/quart and by their claims you should be able to make about 2.5 tanks of 94 octane per quart...their math seems a little funny when I look at it though

I'll probably end up running some of that 101 in my tank for the next 4-6 weeks and see what happens with 91 when the weather cools a bit.

 

Thanks for that link. I vaugely remeber that thread as I had only purchased my MINI in Jan and didn't start the mod addiction until April or so.

 

Beyond fuzzy math, they are also a bit sparse on product information. Things like test results from a reputable testing laboratory that confirm the octane increase would be nice. Also, what is used to get the increase? If there is MMT in the mix, you are going to have serious emission control system problems. Net, net, go with the 101 octane racing unleaded that is sold from a service station pump. At least in California, the service station/distributor has to carry an insurance policy when they sell from a pump for use on public roads.

 

I'm with ya! My wallets not, but I'll drag it along somehow.

 

An option I am looking at (With the help of MSFITOY) is Water/Methanol injection which would both cool intake charge, as well as reduce the risk of detonation. From the methanol forums I have read, on 93 pump gas, it is effectivley the same as 110 octane in resistance to detonation. I'm not sure if youre interested, but if you wan't PM me and i can give you a couple links to some vendors.

 

i don't get it . i'm runnig better on 91 than on 93 and my mods are decent 15% ,header etc. so why am i not pinging? did you have oil burning issues in the past or running way rich or anything that would put alot of deposits in your cyl. causing compr. to go up ?

 

Where do you live?

 

Trust me, you don't want to be pinging. Enjoy it (the absence of pinging) while it lasts. I am not pinging with a 17% pulley and I am enjoying every moment. I haven't run the car in hot weather (the heat wave that hit the S.F. Bay Area passed before I had the 17% pulley put on); so, there is still a chance that I will need to do something about pinging. For the moment, I am enjoying the absence of pinging and the presence of power lower down the rev range.

 

Lucas Octane Booster and Torco are both supposed to use MMT as the primary octane boosting agent. There's plenty of debate on whether or not it will harm the cat, but I do know that 1/2 a bottle of Lucas (15 oz per bottle) in a full gas tank significantly reduces the pinging I have on 91-octane pump gas, whereas a whole bottle will completely eliminate pinging. I don't intend to use Lucas Octane Booster in the long run, but it's a decent interim solution for the next few months.

 

Way back, I tried the Lucas product...no go...I'm still using the 100 octane though. I have a place right on the way to work that sells Shell 100 unleaded racing gas. Every now and then I run the tank down and go get 4 or 5 gallons and go play . I'm looking to ECU tuning and then water/meth as my next options.

 

Just out of curiosity as I'm from Phoenix as well...what station is that? Is it actually a Shell station, because I have a Shell gas card and would love to be able to fill up with 100 octane while being able to use it!

I know the independent station on 56th and Bell sells Shell race fuel, but they don't take Shell cards.

 

I've used that one on occasion too, but the one I primarily use is on Indian Bend just off the 101 at The Pavillions. They are a 76 station, but sell the Shell Racing gas out of the barrel...they have 110 leaded too....so no Shell cards.

 

I should be so lucky as to have 100 octane pump gas! My only option within a 50-mile radius is purchasing in 5-gal drums at $12 per gallon.

A dynotuned Unichip added a delta of 11whp to my setup, but didn't make my pinging go away (but it also didn't exacerbate the pinging like MTH did). If I had a chance to do it again, I would do the water/methanol injection first, then get the custom ECU tune. Dr. O has stated before that he believes the pinging is caused primarily by carbon buildup in the head that results in hotspots. Based on my own observations, that theory seems to be valid - my AF is good, but still pinging with 91 octane. Raising the octane level, even slightly, with octane boosters or WI would result in less timing retard and no pinging.

However, if I could get 100 octane from the pump at a reasonable price, I wouldn't be bothering with WI at all. Mixing 100 and 91 would be a pain, but you pay to play. What bums me out the most is that we can't even get 93 octane in our states.