Very impressive! Do you know what sort of whp is achieved with a stock MCS on that dyno?

 

12.5 was Hubie's recommendation. timing was not adjustable with the Apexi...too bad. I had the One-click software and whatever timing that was providing.

 

Well, the reason I ask is, yeah, the Apex'i doesn't change timing, only fuel delivery, so if people begin with an aftermarket tune and use an Apex'i too, what if any rules/guidelines exist for calculating the safe conmbinations of fuel trim and ignition advance so as to optomize power, but not to have to flirt with pinging before doing so. For instance, I believe that most MTH tunes do quite a bit of ignition advancing. Does anyone know?

 

thanks...


i do not know. i will ask them.. i got my car dynoed at edge motorworks in dublin california...

 

indeed, i been trying to acheive a better A/F curve through programing. it has been very difficult to achieve becuase the ECU preferrs a rich condition.

i will be dialing in the A/F further using MTH expertise..

p.s. it is amazing how much power is lost because of rich A/F mixtures.. my earlier dynos show what rich conditions do to HP with the same mods...!

 

So let's clear this up

what is the price...INSTALLED...for you 200 WHP package

 

That depends on the rate and if you're able to do some of the work yourself...I think labor was 12 hours, maybe more. How much labor [time] goes into a twincharge install?

The KIT is 46xx dollars. That is how much the parts cost.

 

I'm beginging to hate rolling roads, if they hadn't been invented you lot would be tuning them at the drag strip and then all would be equal apart from the weather and elevation

Its nice to see that they're so many low 13sec 104mph cars around

 

So 12 hrs @ 85 an hr(if your lucky...yeah...it's getting up there...

I know I can do the work...but most prolly can't...or rather choose not to...SO, that beign the case...again...for 4600 and MAYBE making 200 WHP...which I say NAUGHT on a mustang dyno (aka Helix dyno)...Maybe the Global Motor Werks car...they were @ 220 WHP on a Dyno jet last I saw them Dyno...

I'd rather spend the extra grand and get a garrunteed 250 WHP....I.E. TWINCHARGE...aaaand as long as you leave the boost controller/actuator alone you won't boost over 24 lbs and that way you won't break a ring land...there for IT'S RELIABLE...and as for drivability....anyone who's driven one will tell you...the mini only get's more fun as you add power...but anyone who has done a pulley can attest to that...

the TC kit if you have done one is prolly about 10-12 hrs...give or take depending on skill and tools

 

We'll see what it puts to the wheels in just a few weeks [don't get off of class til the the day before Christmas eve!!!!]. I'll go to a Mustang dyno, because although they read low, they seem to have far less variability, right? It may not be likely, but it sure would be nice to break 200 on one .

 

The average Cosworth pkg comes to 5620 less taxes installed. I am still waiting for that guy that claimed that the system was $8,000 to respond but he has remained silent. No surprise there. I feel comparing the Cosworth program to the Twincharge is really apples and oranges, each program reaches different types of consumers but your statement below did give rise to a question.




" I'd rather spend the extra grand and get a garrunteed 250 WHP....I.E. TWINCHARGE "





So you are saying a actual drivable Twinchage is about 6620 INSTALLED ? We have a customer here at the shop that has a twincharge car with the basic 250 pkg but he had to go to the new pistons due to his becoming shaped in a unusual manor shall we say. It appears to be holding together well now since the rebuild and he is remaining optimistic.



Randy
m7 Tuning

 

As for apples and oranges...I am only talking WHP per dollar...nothign else...in that light we are talking apple and apples...hands down it's not opinion you get more WHP per dollar via the TC kit











My first question would be WHO's TC kit...cause they are NOT all equal. Then Next question is who Tuned it...cause that matters too...

and what does " due to his becoming shaped in a unusual manor" mean...if he melted a piston it wasn't the TC....that's from heat...TC cars do not create that kind of heat majically...now if the Timing was advanced cause the software was improperly modified...well then....that goes back to using a REAL tuner...not some one who uses plug and play software....cuase generic maps are very bad for tuning cars....

as for Pistons....I would accually recommend Pistons to anyone who is doing major Mods...why not...then you no longer have to think about it....and they aren't that expensice it the light of a cossie kit OR TC kit....after all thanks to FTR we know the bottom end (rods and crank) is good for 550 hp...YAAAAY!...lol crazy isn't it...what a great platform!

 

quote=Tuls]As for apples and oranges...I am only talking WHP per dollar...nothign else...in that light we are talking apple and apples...hands down it's not opinion you get more WHP per dollar via the TC kit That could be true to some degree but as yet as no one has established the actual cost of an installed drivable Twincharge kit. What cost factor are you using to arrive at the cost per hp number.

My first question would be WHO's TC kit...cause they are NOT all equal. Then Next question is who Tuned it...cause that matters too...


The twincharge kit in question was from SPI. It is the same one that had the turbo go out the first week. Hubie stepped up and sent him a replacement which was a nice thing to do but they really never knew what took it out in the first place. Steve's Auto Clinic did the install and his reputation is second to none.

and what does " due to his becoming shaped in a unusual manor" mean...if he melted a piston it wasn't the TC....that's from heat...TC cars do not create that kind of heat majically..

The number one piston went bad do to excessive heat , the same way that El's car would do on occasion.

.now if the Timing was advanced cause the software was improperly modified...well then....that goes back to using a REAL tuner...not some one who uses plug and play software....cause generic maps are very bad for tuning cars....as for Pistons....I would accually recommend Pistons to anyone who is doing major Mods...why not...then you no longer have to think about it....and they aren't that expensice it the light of a cossie kit OR TC kit....after all thanks to FTR we know the bottom end (rods and crank) is good for 550 hp...YAAAAY!...lol crazy isn't it...what a great platform![/quote]

Pistons are always a nice bit of comfort but we do not see it to be necessary with the Cosworth package. We have had no issues with our cars and that includes running them up to 8150 rpm As you are recommending pistons for a TC car what would add to the total a bit. As I recall the labor was about $1,000 and approx $ 600 for pistons for the last twincharge rebuild.

I still say it is apples and oranges as we are in different markets all together . A Cosworth customer would not think about a TC car and I am sure the same thing applies for the twincharge fan. There is more than enough room for both in this market.

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

First off I can attest to the cost of a drivable twin charge...I have built installed a couple now...and if done right the cost is about 6800...then if you wanna add pistons yeah another 600...not that much for something that will get you...WITH PISTIONS 280 to the ground!!! WHP for money that's not too much more...and almost twice the power


The Turbo did not FAIL...a chunk of piston have come through the turbo...Steve's saw the car smoking and said..."oh it's the turbo"...UMM NO...cuase after Hubie sent the Turbo to garret they laughed at him and said "it called F.O.D." That stand for Foreign Object Damage. the Turbo Rod is bent and there are chunks out of the blades on the exhuast side...but oh yeah the turbo failed...NOOOO the engine ( a piston) failed...breaking the turbo

I have also built some of the strongest pulley cars...and they are awsome too...but they break as well...it's not the tool it's how it's used....or abused

Steve's also told EL to drive home and that his car was fine when one of his cylinders was a 70 after a compression test...UMMM yeaaaahh...so this second to none stuff....well they are second to me...cause if I didn't a compression test and it was 70 or a car came in smoking...I wouldn't say it was ok to drive...and I wouldn't blame a turbo for a broken motor...



WHat do you mean by went bad...

Broke a Ring Land?
Melted?
It's not rockets science...if it broke a ring land it's prolly due to over boosting...if it melted it's prolly went lean...agian not a result of the kit as much as improper install and or improper tuning.

the only time EL's car had excessive heat was from improper software with too much timing...and when he was testing someone's pistons and they had a quench built into them...which anyone who knows the engineering of the Mini power would know that's BAD..too much compression...ESPECIALLY for a TC car






Yeah...no doubt...but your barley at 200 WHP..the mini can handle 300 WHP before it needs pistons...that's been proven time and again...Hell even Global Motor Werks did that...with thier build and some NOS to boot...BAM 300 WHP!!!!

I am not sure about the labor on that...but it's not so much that it isn't work it...again I have done the install and it didn't take much time at all...no more than your head...cause that's all it really is... I cannot agree with you there...the market is making WHP with a MiniAgain I disagree....my first car was a Cossie...only it was a britsh one...Sierra Cosworth....in europe they were getting 550 HP out of that 2.0 in the 80s...but my fan base for cossie has nothing to do with how much power I would want to make in a Mini....

heck you could add your Cossie Head to A tc a 250 WHP TC car and make (add what your head makes here to the TC) What??

I totally agree with you there...and just so there is no assuming....I am not trying to tell anyone not to use your cossie stuff...just want them to know the reality of what kind of WHP per $ they can have....IF THEY SO CHOOSE

unfortunately...due to a few poor installs and alot of pioneering (on EL's part) the TC reputation has been skewed....





Thank you to anyone who is accually reading this...I know it's long but I am sure Randy and I would agree it's accually a good read...

 

I'll say it again- we'll all wait until the end of December, and then I'll provide everyone with dyno numbers, before and after the new 8k tune. I'll let you know, now, I'm likely using a Mustang dyno, since those seem to have the most respect, and the numbers will be lower than they would be on a DynoJet. We'll collectively add in a fudge factor according to public opinion. I'll be running stock on the pre-dyno, 8000+ rpm on the post-dyno. It should be interesting, especially if I have the best of the Mustang . Then, we can compare numbers.

 

There are a lot of pretty serious cars that get tested on Dynojets and Dynopacks.......I'm sure the Mustang is good but let's not annoint it the "official" dyno of the Mini....... that being said I'm pulling for you

 

Thanks Spider! Well, I'm seriously interested in bringing useful numbers and not catching crap for what I show in the interests of the board, so perhaps I'll just ask those who particularly care, what would YOU like to see? Your wish, my command . I mean, look, I'm willing to pay MY money to make you all [the community, so to speak] happy .

 

...ever the humanitarian...

 

I hear a lot of talk about twincharge cars and how you dont need pistons until you "crank up" the boost, but when in reality Maximus' car blew a ringland with ONLY the STOCK TWNCHARGE and NOTHING else. It seems like this happened to the car that m7 is talkin about too. The turbo failed due to a piston going. I am wondering if Mahle, the piston supplier for the stock MINI, has poor quality control due to some twincharge cars loosing pistons and some not! These are not meant as attacks, just stating what I see.
Ben

 

Do you also see the 30 other twincharge cars out there having no problem...what was the boost that you brother was running? for you to say stock twincharge means nothing..that turbo is capable of over 30lbs of boost on it's own...but as a twin should NOT be turned up that high...so again...the TC is not at fault ..but whom ever set the boost...


Spider...The Dyno Pack and the Mustang are both LOAD BEARING dynos...where as the Dyno Jet is not...it's Inertia Dyno..The Dyno Jet's tend to run about 15-30% higher due to the fact that they have no load...as in calculation for the wieght of the car...

It is also proven that the Dyno Packs and Mustangs are better for tuning...and just in case there is any question...I have tried tuning on both Mustangs and Dyno Jets...I found the Dyno jets were great for ego...but with out load...alot of times the tune wasn't as acurate as the Load bearing dyno...Don't get me wrong they still work...I just choose to go with what works better...that's just how I do things

 

Boost was never turned up, or never played with the wastgate settings to clear that up.. we didn't quite know how to set boost so whatever boost the turbo was set at as it came from HUBIE..

Also, we don't see any other twincharged cars out here.. and no one has spoken up like I have. soo.. what is there to see? I have no visible proof.

 

oops

 

It had the stock wastegate spring in it, I dont exactly recall the boost it was running but nothing was done to make the turbo push more air. Like I asked it is interesting to see that some cars like to let pistons go and others dont.

 

as you push pistons (anything) beyond their design limit, first you start to see a larger statistical rate of failure which only eventually will increase to 100%. It doesn't surprise me to see only a few go at 25lbs and then at 34lbs, you can count on it.

 

sounds quite sensible, jlm.