Drivetrain 200 WHP possible?
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 285
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From: Scottsdale, AZ
Yes, my instant thought would be that mine is an 05! They did make some changes on the 05 car
Originally Posted by conehead
Those are some nice charts JLM. It is funny you mention your A/F . It does look real good and apparently you used the APXI to really dial it in. What is confusing is that the dyno plot from Motorsports3 shows a even better A/F and all he has is a pulley? Something odd here , any thoughts?
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 285
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From: Scottsdale, AZ
As I stated earlier: If M7, Webb or "The Doctor" (not Valentino Rossi) haven't done it, you don't see it being possible. Since you can't believe something I say, There were others there who can garantee that I didn't have software or an AFC or anything buy a pulley. Tuls was there, maybe you will believe him, but I do have to say his car made 187 whp with just one of our pullies on his car and nothing else. That was done on a different dyno and at an AZ mini dyno day. Also, Hubie saw my car and new there wasn't anyhting on it. it was after that dyno pass that I started talking with him about how to even wire an AFC into the car.
In closing, let me ask you a couple questions ingsock. Why do people put a factory size lightweight crank pulley on their car? Do these car suffer from heatsoak? Does the supercharger generate heat? Do some materials disapate heat better than others?
In closing, let me ask you a couple questions ingsock. Why do people put a factory size lightweight crank pulley on their car? Do these car suffer from heatsoak? Does the supercharger generate heat? Do some materials disapate heat better than others?
Originally Posted by ingsoc
My thought: software. He clearly has some either AF controller or software tune on it to keep such nice AF numbers. The above two, of course, would embellish the gains of a pulley, imo 
.
Isellem, since you are so self-assured in the quality of your pulley as to patronize people like you do, what exactly is so special about your 15% pulley? If it makes so much more power [>26-28 whp from the pulley or whatever you claim- if the highest stock number you've seen was 160, so motorsports made maybe even more???
], it seems quite likely to me that it would have to a) spin the SC faster [is that 15 really a 19? ] or b) spin the supercharger faster or c) you get the idea. If nothing but the pulley changes, you cannot improve the performance of the system beyond making the SC pump more air. Or, does this pulley also cool the air charge, too ?
.Isellem, since you are so self-assured in the quality of your pulley as to patronize people like you do, what exactly is so special about your 15% pulley? If it makes so much more power [>26-28 whp from the pulley or whatever you claim- if the highest stock number you've seen was 160, so motorsports made maybe even more???
], it seems quite likely to me that it would have to a) spin the SC faster [is that 15 really a 19? ] or b) spin the supercharger faster or c) you get the idea. If nothing but the pulley changes, you cannot improve the performance of the system beyond making the SC pump more air. Or, does this pulley also cool the air charge, too ?
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
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From: Infinity and beyond
Originally Posted by motorsports3
but I do have to say his car made 187 whp
...hey wait isn[t 1 WHP like 3 at the crank or something..let's see 15% of 1 is ummm oh wait...no ...that's only like 1.15 hp...OH YEAH!!!
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: New Brunswick, NJ
Originally Posted by motorsports3
As I stated earlier: If M7, Webb or "The Doctor" (not Valentino Rossi) haven't done it, you don't see it being possible. Since you can't believe something I say, There were others there who can garantee that I didn't have software or an AFC or anything buy a pulley. Tuls was there, maybe you will believe him, but I do have to say his car made 187 whp with just one of our pullies on his car and nothing else. That was done on a different dyno and at an AZ mini dyno day. Also, Hubie saw my car and new there wasn't anyhting on it. it was after that dyno pass that I started talking with him about how to even wire an AFC into the car.
In closing, let me ask you a couple questions ingsock. Why do people put a factory size lightweight crank pulley on their car? Do these car suffer from heatsoak? Does the supercharger generate heat? Do some materials disapate heat better than others?
In closing, let me ask you a couple questions ingsock. Why do people put a factory size lightweight crank pulley on their car? Do these car suffer from heatsoak? Does the supercharger generate heat? Do some materials disapate heat better than others?
Aftermarket crank pulley reduce the weight of the rotating assembly and free up power that would be lost. Unless if your pulley is somehow much lighter than the other options [remember, the crank pulley loses up to 5 pounds off of the stock piece!], that can't be the explanation. Anyways, I think it's more than a little likely that that dyno reads high. You didn't say if these cars, like Tuls, which turned ~160 whp stock were dynoed on the same one, just that those were their stock readings.
Lastly, I still find it mighty weird that your AF ratio is miraculously gorgeous without software intervention. The power curve is also really smooth, with few peaks and troughs after 6k rpm. It's just highly suspicious, and I'm sure you know that.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
Originally Posted by ingsoc
My thought: software. He clearly has some either AF controller or software tune on it to keep such nice AF numbers. The above two, of course, would embellish the gains of a pulley, imo .
Isellem, since you are so self-assured in the quality of your pulley as to patronize people like you do, what exactly is so special about your 15% pulley? If it makes so much more power [>26-28 whp from the pulley or whatever you claim- if the highest stock number you've seen was 160, so motorsports made maybe even more???], it seems quite likely to me that it would have to a) spin the SC faster [is that 15 really a 19? ] or b) spin the supercharger faster or c) you get the idea. If nothing but the pulley changes, you cannot improve the performance of the system beyond making the SC pump more air. Or, does this pulley also cool the air charge, too ?
.Isellem, since you are so self-assured in the quality of your pulley as to patronize people like you do, what exactly is so special about your 15% pulley? If it makes so much more power [>26-28 whp from the pulley or whatever you claim- if the highest stock number you've seen was 160, so motorsports made maybe even more???
], it seems quite likely to me that it would have to a) spin the SC faster [is that 15 really a 19? ] or b) spin the supercharger faster or c) you get the idea. If nothing but the pulley changes, you cannot improve the performance of the system beyond making the SC pump more air. Or, does this pulley also cool the air charge, too ?As far as your comments about my supercharger pulley... I do understand where they are coming from... a 15% pulley is a 15% pulley unless its really not a 15% pulley. Totally understand and follow your thought process. All i can give you is the results of dyno testing, all from the same dyno (to ensure accuracy of course
) I am a little hesitant to release exactly why our pulley works so efficently. Because you see... as a business... when you may have a leg up on your competition you don't always want to run out and tell everyone all about it... because your leg up suddenly becomes very level with everyone elses... Lets just say... that a lot of time was spent on what matierals to use... and also made every effort to make sure our pulleys were precisionly built to work with all the components that the pulley comes in contact with. (that last sentance is a huge key) Also, I would be lying to you if i said that a titanium supercharger pulley doesn't exist... No, its not what my pulley is made out of... we didn't find that to be to cost effective I have found that unless you are Randy Webb many people don't believe a word that is said. It makes it very difficult to be an active and positive member of this community when everyone constantly calls you out to prove your claims... and even when you do... they arent good enough... and we must be using some sort of magical software or have a 15% pulley that is really a 19% pulley or we are using an inaccurate uncalibrated dyno. I would not waste my time developing products to find out that the dyno is in accurate just like i would not create a 15% pulley and really have it be a 19% pulley... because it wouldn't take a very inteligent person to simply measure the pulley and do a little bit of math... That would pretty much crush not only my credibiltiy but any hope for my business as well.
Thanks for reading this long winded post
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 58
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From: On your girlfriend
Originally Posted by Tuls
uuuhhhh accually it made 188 WHP....yeah...cuase you know you can feel that 1 WHP...especially at highway speeds ...hey wait isn[t 1 WHP like 3 at the crank or something..let's see 15% of 1 is ummm oh wait...no ...that's only like 1.15 hp...OH YEAH!!!
...hey wait isn[t 1 WHP like 3 at the crank or something..let's see 15% of 1 is ummm oh wait...no ...that's only like 1.15 hp...OH YEAH!!!Of course, I didn't take into consideration the density altitude correction factor, or the friction of the tires on the rollers........and uh, what type and size the tires were. What was the air pressure in them? Hurry! Quick! I neeeeed that information for my calculation!!!!!!!! Did anybody time how long Tuls car took to get from 3500 rpm to 6000 rpm on the dyno?
Seriously, dynographs can look smoother than they actually are due to "Smoothing" on the dyno. (See in the upper-right-hand corner?) It is a feature that makes the graph easier to read. Also, that dynograph result is SAE standardized. That is done by the computer/ dyno automatically.
Also, I seriously doubt that a lighter-weight crank pulley nets any measureable gain at the wheels. It's too small of a circumference.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
hope you have one hell of a fire suit for this crowed... or perhaps one of those things that the used to cap off the burning oil lines in Iraq during desert storm...
if you have one of those... i might need to borrow it...
if you have one of those... i might need to borrow it...
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: On your girlfriend
Originally Posted by isellem
hope you have one hell of a fire suit for this crowed... or perhaps one of those things that the used to cap off the burning oil lines in Iraq during desert storm...
if you have one of those... i might need to borrow it...
if you have one of those... i might need to borrow it...
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
and sometimes even when you race your MINI... and post your slip... you still get doubt... however when randy webb releases his OPINION its gospel and fact.... When we post a fact such as dyno sheets or time slips... they are questioned...
Now I have nothing against randy webb or his opinions having talked to him i think he is a very knowledgable person. Again nothing nothing wrong with randy.... have the utmost respect...I guess im just jealous that my facts can't be sung as gospel by the same choir.
Now I have nothing against randy webb or his opinions having talked to him i think he is a very knowledgable person. Again nothing nothing wrong with randy.... have the utmost respect...I guess im just jealous that my facts can't be sung as gospel by the same choir.
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
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From: Infinity and beyond
Originally Posted by isellem
and sometimes even when you race your MINI... and post your slip... you still get doubt... however when randy webb releases his OPINION its gospel and fact.... When we post a fact such as dyno sheets or time slips... they are questioned...
Now I have nothing against randy webb or his opinions having talked to him i think he is a very knowledgable person. Again nothing nothing wrong with randy.... have the utmost respect...I guess im just jealous that my facts can't be sung as gospel by the same choir.
Now I have nothing against randy webb or his opinions having talked to him i think he is a very knowledgable person. Again nothing nothing wrong with randy.... have the utmost respect...I guess im just jealous that my facts can't be sung as gospel by the same choir.
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
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Originally Posted by isellem
welp... believe it or not those numbers were without software. The factory (at least the 05's) cope very well with a 15% pulley. I wish i could prove these gains to you in a way that you would believe me... Perhaps you can provide some insight on how i can get your approval for these claims.
As far as your comments about my supercharger pulley... I do understand where they are coming from... a 15% pulley is a 15% pulley unless its really not a 15% pulley. Totally understand and follow your thought process. All i can give you is the results of dyno testing, all from the same dyno (to ensure accuracy of course ) I am a little hesitant to release exactly why our pulley works so efficently. Because you see... as a business... when you may have a leg up on your competition you don't always want to run out and tell everyone all about it... because your leg up suddenly becomes very level with everyone elses... Lets just say... that a lot of time was spent on what matierals to use... and also made every effort to make sure our pulleys were precisionly built to work with all the components that the pulley comes in contact with. (that last sentance is a huge key) Also, I would be lying to you if i said that a titanium supercharger pulley doesn't exist... No, its not what my pulley is made out of... we didn't find that to be to cost effective
I have found that unless you are Randy Webb many people don't believe a word that is said. It makes it very difficult to be an active and positive member of this community when everyone constantly calls you out to prove your claims... and even when you do... they arent good enough... and we must be using some sort of magical software or have a 15% pulley that is really a 19% pulley or we are using an inaccurate uncalibrated dyno. I would not waste my time developing products to find out that the dyno is in accurate just like i would not create a 15% pulley and really have it be a 19% pulley... because it wouldn't take a very inteligent person to simply measure the pulley and do a little bit of math... That would pretty much crush not only my credibiltiy but any hope for my business as well.
Thanks for reading this long winded post
As far as your comments about my supercharger pulley... I do understand where they are coming from... a 15% pulley is a 15% pulley unless its really not a 15% pulley. Totally understand and follow your thought process. All i can give you is the results of dyno testing, all from the same dyno (to ensure accuracy of course
) I am a little hesitant to release exactly why our pulley works so efficently. Because you see... as a business... when you may have a leg up on your competition you don't always want to run out and tell everyone all about it... because your leg up suddenly becomes very level with everyone elses... Lets just say... that a lot of time was spent on what matierals to use... and also made every effort to make sure our pulleys were precisionly built to work with all the components that the pulley comes in contact with. (that last sentance is a huge key) Also, I would be lying to you if i said that a titanium supercharger pulley doesn't exist... No, its not what my pulley is made out of... we didn't find that to be to cost effective I have found that unless you are Randy Webb many people don't believe a word that is said. It makes it very difficult to be an active and positive member of this community when everyone constantly calls you out to prove your claims... and even when you do... they arent good enough... and we must be using some sort of magical software or have a 15% pulley that is really a 19% pulley or we are using an inaccurate uncalibrated dyno. I would not waste my time developing products to find out that the dyno is in accurate just like i would not create a 15% pulley and really have it be a 19% pulley... because it wouldn't take a very inteligent person to simply measure the pulley and do a little bit of math... That would pretty much crush not only my credibiltiy but any hope for my business as well.
Thanks for reading this long winded post
If you continue to claim that dyno plot is from a 15% pulley car and NO software you wont have to worry about a credibility problem for long . Saying that another car received similar numbers further makes that dyno highly suspect. Perhaps you could try to get those numbers on another dyno ? Not trying to be rude but you are passing off numbers that are un believable to those of us that have been involved with this car for a long time . BTW there is NO way there could be a 10 to 15 hp difference between 15% pulleys . That claim is also going to work on that old credibility issue as well .
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
Originally Posted by ingsoc
Aftermarket crank pulley reduce the weight of the rotating assembly and free up power that would be lost. Unless if your pulley is somehow much lighter than the other options [remember, the crank pulley loses up to 5 pounds off of the stock piece!], that can't be the explanation. Anyways, I think it's more than a little likely that that dyno reads high. You didn't say if these cars, like Tuls, which turned ~160 whp stock were dynoed on the same one, just that those were their stock readings.
i don't think he was actually asking the questions... he was leading you on as possible ideas as possible ideas as to why the pulley may be soooo effiecent
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,288
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From: ann arbor michigan
Originally Posted by motorsports3
Congratulations on your ability to pass 1st grade math!!! But it looks like your wealth of knowledge on the MINI has been disproven.
And just because you think, doen't mean it is accurate or correct.
And just because you think, doen't mean it is accurate or correct.
I do not appreciate the dig at my intelligence, but I will let it slide.
I dont mean to sound like an ********* or anything but I think one of the reasons some people do not neccessarily believe your claims is because the nature in which you word them.
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 285
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From: Scottsdale, AZ
My guess is that every Dyno in AZ must read off then. I already said that Tuls's car and mine were done on different dyno's I will ship both cars out to you or whereever you wanted for another dyno, but one small problem exist. Neither one of these cars are anywhere near having just a pulley on them now.
Not trying to be rude, but will you just stop talking. I don't give a sh it that you have been involved with these cars for a long. I have been involved with them for an equally long if not longer time. And YES there is a way to have 10-15 hp difference in the pulley's. Waht makes you an expert in the subject? So untill you are you opionion is like an a**hol*. Everyones got one. Bring me some factual information that says my pulley doesn't make the stated numbers and I will shut up. But then again you can't. At least I have done everything within my power to show you that thereis nothing funny going on here. I even gave you references.
Not trying to be rude, but will you just stop talking. I don't give a sh it that you have been involved with these cars for a long. I have been involved with them for an equally long if not longer time. And YES there is a way to have 10-15 hp difference in the pulley's. Waht makes you an expert in the subject? So untill you are you opionion is like an a**hol*. Everyones got one. Bring me some factual information that says my pulley doesn't make the stated numbers and I will shut up. But then again you can't. At least I have done everything within my power to show you that thereis nothing funny going on here. I even gave you references.
Originally Posted by conehead
If you continue to claim that dyno plot is from a 15% pulley car and NO software you wont have to worry about a credibility problem for long . Saying that another car received similar numbers further makes that dyno highly suspect. Perhaps you could try to get those numbers on another dyno ? Not trying to be rude but you are passing off numbers that are un believable to those of us that have been involved with this car for a long time . BTW there is NO way there could be a 10 to 15 hp difference between 15% pulleys . That claim is also going to work on that old credibility issue as well .
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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You claimed, you had headwork done.. so apaerently, it was NOT just a pulley.. also could you clairfy what type of dyno you were using? plus you a/f is way too smooth.. no way a stock ecu without any AFC or ECU to help with that. BTW, don't mess with my brothers mind, he is smarter than me in the math department. I don't like it when you make fun of anyone's education.
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 285
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From: Scottsdale, AZ
You need to stop taking too! I had head work done well after this took place. Read kwikshifts post about smoothing. Makes it easier to read.
Mess with you brothers mind? I would hope every single person on this board could pass 1st grade math. Thanks for looking out for everyones education level. The forum is now a better place.
Mess with you brothers mind? I would hope every single person on this board could pass 1st grade math. Thanks for looking out for everyones education level. The forum is now a better place.
Originally Posted by Maximusmini
You claimed, you had headwork done.. so apaerently, it was NOT just a pulley.. also could you clairfy what type of dyno you were using? plus you a/f is way too smooth.. no way a stock ecu without any AFC or ECU to help with that. BTW, don't mess with my brothers mind, he is smarter than me in the math department. I don't like it when you make fun of anyone's education.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: ann arbor michigan
Like I said in my post above, maybe just maybe it it the attitude you carry that makes what you post so hard to believe. You are acting as if we are all against you, we are not we jsut want to know how this pulley is making the amount of power that it is, and until that point I will remain a skeptic, as I would be if any other person or vendor has postted what you have.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,506
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Originally Posted by motorsports3
You need to stop taking too! I had head work done well after this took place. Read kwikshifts post about smoothing. Makes it easier to read.
Mess with you brothers mind? I would hope every single person on this board could pass 1st grade math. Thanks for looking out for everyones education level. The forum is now a better place.
Mess with you brothers mind? I would hope every single person on this board could pass 1st grade math. Thanks for looking out for everyones education level. The forum is now a better place.
You didn't answer a question.. What dyno did you use?
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 285
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From: Scottsdale, AZ
Thanks for making a valid post and having patience with me. That is more than I can say from some others.
The answer has already been stated, But then another "self proclaimed" expert discredited that theory. Read in between the lines in my post to ingsock. I wasn't asking him question but rather giving him ideas on how to make a more effective pulley. But as isellem said, he is reluctant to give you all of the story as he will then loose his leg up on everyone else.
The answer has already been stated, But then another "self proclaimed" expert discredited that theory. Read in between the lines in my post to ingsock. I wasn't asking him question but rather giving him ideas on how to make a more effective pulley. But as isellem said, he is reluctant to give you all of the story as he will then loose his leg up on everyone else.
Originally Posted by mybroscoop
Like I said in my post above, maybe just maybe it it the attitude you carry that makes what you post so hard to believe. You are acting as if we are all against you, we are not we jsut want to know how this pulley is making the amount of power that it is, and until that point I will remain a skeptic, as I would be if any other person or vendor has postted what you have.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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Originally Posted by motorsports3
You need to stop taking too!
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Scottsdale, AZ
I still have trouble seeing how complimenting him on his addition skills was a personal attack?
Originally Posted by Maximusmini
Uhh.. what? Btw.. if someone personally attacked your brother you love, I believe you would do the same thing. Get over my actions as a loving brother.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
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From: out and aboot
okay... lets not get to far ahead of ourselves and also get off topic and take comments the wrong way etc...
i think their was a mistake or perhaps misunderstanding that took place... or perhaps i am reading this incorrectly...
but Maximusmini... i think that you that are implying that motorsports3 had head work done to acheive the 188whp... he didn't... that was with a pulley.
the head work and tune with an afc netted over 200whp...
i hope this clears things up...
i think their was a mistake or perhaps misunderstanding that took place... or perhaps i am reading this incorrectly...
but Maximusmini... i think that you that are implying that motorsports3 had head work done to acheive the 188whp... he didn't... that was with a pulley.
the head work and tune with an afc netted over 200whp...
i hope this clears things up...
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: ann arbor michigan
Originally Posted by motorsports3
Thanks for making a valid post and having patience with me. That is more than I can say from some others.
The answer has already been stated, But then another "self proclaimed" expert discredited that theory. Read in between the lines in my post to ingsock. I wasn't asking him question but rather giving him ideas on how to make a more effective pulley. But as isellem said, he is reluctant to give you all of the story as he will then loose his leg up on everyone else.
The answer has already been stated, But then another "self proclaimed" expert discredited that theory. Read in between the lines in my post to ingsock. I wasn't asking him question but rather giving him ideas on how to make a more effective pulley. But as isellem said, he is reluctant to give you all of the story as he will then loose his leg up on everyone else.
Hey no problem here, zI am just curious as I will be starting a project that involves a supercharger next spring.